Rico

Well, if it hasn't collapsed yet(and notice that I haven't answered that question myself yet)...maybe there are only two states, either collapsing or building. Maybe there isn't even a state of collapse? Is our civilization in a state of building a closer relationship with God(and therefore building to a stronger civilization) or are we falling away? Are we a world of many civilizations like in times past or are we world of just one civilization? Each culture and civilization is more connected now than at any other time in history, IMHO. I don't know why I am posting this topic, maybe I guess it is thinking out loud. If I had confirmation from God that we were in a state of collapse, do you really think I'd be posting here? I find it very intriguing though to ask the question of what if? It certainly isn't what all the chicken little people want to hear......

My eyeglasses sure must be a different color than the ones y'all are using here....anyone know where I can buy the rose colored eyeglasses? :) Seriously, I expected the same response that I got. If it could all be recognized then things would be different. The recognition will never come at the same time because our reactions would then be in sync. Thankfully, God gave each of us wisdom to ask the right questions and seek out answers. We have been given the gift of personal revelation.

Ok, ok, I know there are fringe groups who are always talking about things collapsing and everything falling apart. Some of them are already preparing for this impending collapse. Others are trying to make money out of it. I am just wondering if we already have collapsed. It's an intriguing thought I had the other day. I figured there are several signs of a society/civilization collapsed and then decided to compare society now to them. I came to my conclusion already, but was wondering what others thought? All I know is that by time everyone realizes that a society has collapsed, it has long been dead.... - Evil is rewarded and goodness is punished. - Ignorance and foolishness are revered while true intellect is scoffed at. - An economy ceases to be based on creation and instead becomes focused on destruction. - Government spends more than it can ever possibly think of paying back - Learning between generations ceases...culture and values are no longer passed from generation to generation. - Instead of leisure time devoted to innovation, leisure time is devoted to laziness. - Entertainment appeals to the lowest common denomination. These are just a few of the signs I took a look at that accompany other failed societies/civilizations...

About perfection in the church: Ignore it. Your visiting teachers just sound like adult bullies. If you are trying your best then you are doing what Heavenly Father wants you do. Those bullies will get their just desserts in the future. Your most important callings are to be a wife and a mother. Remember the church is there to support your family. If it is not supporting your family the way it should then you need to try to fit it in. If you can't then you need to do what you need to do in order to fulfill your first two callings. Oh yeah, don't worry about problems with the history of the Church. Those problems are not God made problems, they are man made problems.

Maybe I am wrong. Wingnut. Do you think it would be a good idea to go to the Meeting House and have a talk directly to the offending person and when it turns into a shouting and fistfight match, then I keep up with it? By the way, it did reach a shouting match.....I left before it turned to a fistfight. You are saying I am wrong, so I challenge YOU to tell me what to do differently.

I'm a father. Not active in the church at the moment.

Thanks, clap, promote this to the top, sticky it, What else can I say? I think church leaders would be surprised to found out just how many people go inactive because of adult bullies in the church. I say surprised because I haven't heard a general conference talk on it. There are too many bullying Elder's Quorum Presidents and Young Men Presidents out there and this turns off way too many people from the Church. They have been allowed to be bullies as kids and they think it's appropriate behavior and have continued it into the day. By the way, the only adult bullies I have found in the church have been long time members, converts tend to strive their best to follow the gospel as the missionaries taught them.

So the three fold mission of the church is changing? I was always taught that perfecting the saints was that caring for the poor and needy. Does this also mean that the church will actually start caring for the poor and needy rather than telling them to keep the faith?

There are many place David Archuleta could go where he would be a relative unknown. Thailand, Taiwan and Korea would be three countries where he would just another white kid.

If I am not mistaken you are convert and that happened before you were a member. I think you might have felt a bit different if you had the Restored Gospel at the time. We all make different decisions when we have the Gospel. I know this isn't Church Doctrine, but I believe that before someone receives the Gospel, there is no sin that can't be blotted away by the atonement. After they receive the Gospel and choose to sin, that is a different story. I think this goes back to the Fairness Doctrine. Heavenly Father forgives you for things you do that you don't know were wrong at the time. Of course, all of this is conjecture on my part. None of us know how we will deal with something until we have to personally deal with it.

Can I join your branch? My wife and I are counting the days til we are off this rock and can actually get into a different ward/branch where we can serve. (Long story why we are inactive, it was deleted from here...)

Well the EQ President is part of the reason why we aren't in church here anymore, but that's another story. :) Ever since we decided to go inactive, I have had the worry in the back of my mind whether they would excommunicate us for that inactivity. (We plan on going back once we leave this tiny rock with one branch).

My prayers are with you because you obviously haven't had a break from your own painful past. Me? I have been through an extremely painful situation myself and know that it is up to me to heal myself with Heavenly Father's help. The sad thing is that I had to come to the realization that victims of the sinners action are not worthy of being helped. We have to help ourselves. A criticism I have about some units in the church is that often times the victims of sin do not get the help they need. Too much focus is put on the repentance process for the sinner, but victims are not part of that process. That will not change until victims start standing up and demanding that they get the help they need as well.

But I would assume that revelation was as advanced then as it is now.

Ok, I highly doubt this one, but I really want to know if this is true or not. A little background: Back when I was the EQ Secretary, the Elder's Quorum Presidency was putting together a home teaching list. The EQ President saw one member's name and said, "That person doesn't need to be home taught, they need to be excommunicated." I said, "Why? What did she do wrong?" He answered, "She's inactive. She's been through the temple and knows that she's supposed to be in church." He went on to say that he was going to bring it up to the Bishopric at the next meeting. Now, maybe he knew something that the rest of us didn't know about her, but I was a little taken back. Excommunication for inactivity may seem like overkill but in some way it does make sense. This has bothered me for awhile so maybe someone else can shed some light. Can someone be excommunicated for inactivity?

Hmm, interesting thread. I never really looked at the Church's position on abortion and always thought the church was in line with other Protestant churches that life begins at conception, it certainly appears so if you read all of the church literature without really mincing what leaders are actual saying. I saw an earlier post that the church really doesn't have a concrete position on when life begins and that's true, to a point. With more research it appears as though Brigham Young stated that life begins when the baby first moves. With our modern equipment, we know that the baby's heart begin moving/beating at about 5 weeks after conception. My research also showed that many early church leaders were very strongly opposed to abortion and offered no exceptions. I am confused by all of this. Why are there exceptions now but there weren't before? Why was abortion considered murder before but now it is not?

The pain is still there because it's you who is hurting. It's you who needs the help to get beyond things. That anger you now feel for your husband is coming from the Adversary. He wants you to remember the things your husband did and he wants you to avoid truly forgiving your husband. Be strong and move forward because one thing is certain, Satan wants your family to fail. He wants it broken up. Your husband fell into his trap when he chose to cheat. When you accepted your husband's apology, you made it clear that you wouldn't let Satan break up your family. Now Satan is working on you. This is where turning to Heavenly Father and truly accepting the power of the atonement can help you. Go to Heavenly Father and pray for strength every time your thoughts go back to remembering what you have already forgiven. Whatever you do, stop wallowing in your tears. The power of the atonement isn't just for your husband, it's for you as well.

Did I say that she was obligated to stay in the marriage? I just said that if the marriage fails at this point, it's because she is unwilling to forgive him. The ball is in her courts on whether or not she accepts his apology and if she wants to make it work. She's the one who needs help right now, not coddling. Sorry if that seems harsh to you, crazypotato, but it's the truth the way I see it. People benefit much more from truth in bad situations than words to just make them feel good. The time for nice platitudes has ended. She's been going on for over a month about how he was apologized to her, tried to fix things and she still keeps bringing up his infidelity. It's not healthy for him and it's not healthy for her. She should figure out what she wants from all of this. She needs to figure out if she cares to salvage the marriage at this point. But I guess telling her that she needs to do that is being harsh......like she would be better off us telling her that it's ok for her to disregard her vows....

Ok, your husband did bad, he apologized to you, it sounds like he is making an effort going through the repentance process. The healing that comes from the repentance process is not unilateral, in other words, you need to allow the healing to take place. You are commanded to forgive those who apologize. It may be hard, but it sounds like YOU are having the problem accepting his apology and it's you who is going against both Heavenly Father and your vows. I suggest that you find counseling right now on how you can work through accepting the atonement that Heavenly Father has offered. The onus is on you right now to make your marriage work and it doesn't seem like you have been doing much except wanting a pity party. You were hurt, he apologized, and he is doing more to make it right and fix the damage done. What more do you want from him? What would make you happy about the situation? What would fix things? I have a feeling that the answer is nothing (or maybe you cheat on him as well??), you just want to be angry about your betrayal. Your anger is not helping anything. Certainly he has a trial to go through in dealing with his PA and cheating, but you, my friend, have a trial to go through in how you deal with this betrayal. From what I see, everything is in your hands....A failure in your marriage at this stage will probably be chalked up as a failure on your part to accept the power of the atonement.

Why don't you indulge me with the difference. My understanding is that sinners violate God's Laws, criminals violate man's laws. Which is worse? To violate man's laws or violate God's laws? Maybe we should treat all those who violate the higher law the same...maybe we should show love and compassion to all sinners. But then again, if it makes you feel better to treat some sinners better than other sinners, that's something that you have to live with.

As we should for every other unrepentant sinner. Would you advocate the same treatments for unrepentant rapists, child molesters, thieves, con men, drug dealers, etc?

Go back 20 years ago and it was. Actually go back fewer years than that. We have changed and become more accepting of that crime until it ceased to be a crime. Maybe we should do the same towards other crimes? Anyways, I am sorry. I don't believe that we should change with the times and become more inclusive just to satisfy the world. I think somewhere in the scriptures we can read that it is just plain wrong.

And just because someone is an unrepentant thief, an unrepentant fraudster or an unrepentant child molester does not mean we need to treat them with disrespect.

I am flabbergasted. Sin is sin. Unrepentant sin is unrepentant sin. I thought the Church should stand up and help us keep sin from encroaching into our daily lives instead of giving it an open door? Someone once told me that gay marriage will be the next Blacks in the Priesthood issue for the Church. I fully expect that the Church will be allowing gays to get married in the temple in the next 20 years. You can only appease sin for so long before you let it overtake you.

How much is paid in vs how much is paid out. A younger person starting out today will pay in(with interest) more than they will ever get out of system. An older person collecting social security now has paid in less than they are receiving. That lesser amount is a transfer payment. Maybe we don't like to use the word, but it's welfare. It's just disguised welfare. I refuse to delude myself into believing that social security is anything but a cleverly disguised welfare system that everyone over 65 can partake in. I am sure just about everyone will disagree, but that's ok. Just go back into the history of the programs and the first benefactors....