No Spanish Conquest In Americas


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The early Spanish conquest never took place in the Americas? It is a well-known fact that the Spanish steel of Pre Industrial Ages was the most superior steel of Europe. Central to Spanish military strategy was the development and deployment of steel weapons. Superior steel was their tactical advantage and they would not go into battle without it.

There has not been a single Spanish steel military artifact over 350 years old found by any recent excavations in the tropical rain forest of Central and South America. Nor has there been found any foundry for such steel in the Americas. According to the logic of the B of M critics of this forum we must not believe that the Spanish ever fought with or had influence on the Incas and Aztecs because there is no proof of Spanish steel in Central or South America prior to 1650.

Two great civilizations arose in the Americas and are called the Pre-Classic and the Classic eras by the Experts. The timing of the rise of these civilizations match the time periods mentioned in the Book of Mormon for the Jaredite and Nephite migrations to the Americas. The evidence of civilizations in the Americas of these civilizations indicates that the technology of both the Pre-Classic and the Classic eras are most like the Eastern Mediterranean societies than any other society on earth for the same time periods.

Some points to consider.

Point 1: In the entire history of the world the rise of or major change based on technological improvement in a civilization has always occurred with the migration of people.

Point 2: It is not unreasonable to assume that migrations originate from a place where same technology introduced into a new place already existed.

Point 3: Since the publication of the Book of Mormon there has not been a reasonable counter theory stand for more than 50 years for the migrations of peoples to the Americas to account for the Pre-Classic and the Classic eras.

Point 4: Proof and evidence is useless without proper interpretation or understanding. For example, for most of the 20th Century it was believed that dinosaurs were cold blooded reptilian related creatures. Now they are said to be warm-blooded creatures more closely associated to birds, not because the evidence has changed so drastically but because the interpretation of the evidence has drastically changed.

Point 5: If you are going to come to an LDS forum and indicate that you are open to new ideas but that you are convinced that critics of the B of M are right on with their assessment of the Book of Mormon you better be prepared to prove you concepts are based on a much more reasonable theory. If you claim there is no evidence of the Book of Mormon you are wrong and indicate a strong lack of propensity to comprehend or deal with any artifact supportive of the Book of Mormon. Just to show my open mind – I would love to hear theories for the triggers of the Pre-Classic and Classic Eras of Civilization in the Americas that have stood as well as the Book of Mormon for the last 170 years.

It appears to me that since the publication of the B of M that there have been excuses given not to accept or even consider the B of M as valid. Each time evidence has been discovered that indicates a B of M critic has made an irrational claim or jumped to conclusions the critics have simply moved to another claim jumping to another conclusion. The lack of some particular evidence is proof of absolutely nothing. If it is such a crime to lack conclusive proof of something then where is the conclusive proof of the critics?

Final Point: The Book of Mormon and the Bible are to be used together to give witness that Jesus is the Christ – the Son of G-d. If you believe in one and not the other I would like to know why? Every argument that I have heard to believe in one, I find supports believing in the other. Every argument I find presented to not believe in one is just as valid not to believe the other.

You are all welcome to believe whatever you want and make any excuse for your belief you want. But for me, I find the excuses against the B of M exactly that, excuses for the historical and present unkindness toward LDS most often displayed as an unwillingness to consider our point of view – even on an LDS forum.

The Traveler

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Guest antishock82003

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

No...sorry...I don't believe in Wookies...as a reality...but as a fantasy...they make for the worst of all the characters of the Star Wars movies...

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

No...sorry...I don't believe in Wookies...as a reality...but as a fantasy...they make for the worst of all the characters of the Star Wars movies...

Okay miss "anti-Wookie". Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years. The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

No...sorry...I don't believe in Wookies...as a reality...but as a fantasy...they make for the worst of all the characters of the Star Wars movies...

Okay miss "anti-Wookie". Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years. The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

LOL...yes...prove the non-existence....

Is that something like proving there isn't such a thing as 'nothingness'?

I can prove there is 'nothingness'...or rather God can...if you have the patience to wait upon the Lord....All you have to do to participate in this acquisition of proof is to live a life of anti-faith and charity/pure love of Christ...until you die...then voila! You are nothing...and do not exist except in nothingness.... (Moroni 7:

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.)

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 07:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

No...sorry...I don't believe in Wookies...as a reality...but as a fantasy...they make for the worst of all the characters of the Star Wars movies...

Okay miss "anti-Wookie". Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years. The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

LOL...yes...prove the non-existence....

Is that something like proving there isn't such a thing as 'nothingness'?

I can prove there is 'nothingness'...or rather God can...if you have the patience to wait upon the Lord....All you have to do to participate in this acquisition of proof is to live a life of anti-faith and charity/pure love of Christ...until you die...then voila! You are nothing...and do not exist except in nothingness.... (Moroni 7:

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.)

They existed. You just don't have enough faith. I feel very sorry for you. How sad and angry your life must be. I will pray for you. Perhaps you committed some horrible sin that makes you immune to feeling the FORCE, which would testify to you that what I say is true.

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Guest Taoist_Saint

Originally posted by bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM

Okay miss "anti-Wookie". Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years. The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

They did exist on the American continent and they still do. How else do you explain the "Bigfoot" sightings?
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Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Jan 26 2004, 07:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Jan 26 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM

Okay miss "anti-Wookie".  Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years.  The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

They did exist on the American continent and they still do. How else do you explain the "Bigfoot" sightings?

See? Proof. HA! Let me know when you get done wiping the egg off of your face, Peace.

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 26 2004, 07:02 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Very good Traveler. I appreciate the insightful and valid argument for truth.

Baby,

This argument is so full of fallacies I'm thinking of submitting it to the Smithsonian for preservation in the Historical Wing of Religious Cognitive Dissonance (it's right between the dinosaurs and the Korean art exhibit). Should I? Could I? Would I possibly take the time to Deconstruct (shout out to Snow) this very spurious and misleading pedantic diatribe!! Forsooth!

Sincerely,

Antius Shockius 8-tius

Submit away.....I find it valid.

What about my question? Do you find the argument valid for my question? Surely you believe in Wookies. :blink:

No...sorry...I don't believe in Wookies...as a reality...but as a fantasy...they make for the worst of all the characters of the Star Wars movies...

Okay miss "anti-Wookie". Prove that Wookies never lived on the American Continents for thousands of years. The burden of proof is now yours, because I said so.

LOL...yes...prove the non-existence....

Is that something like proving there isn't such a thing as 'nothingness'?

I can prove there is 'nothingness'...or rather God can...if you have the patience to wait upon the Lord....All you have to do to participate in this acquisition of proof is to live a life of anti-faith and charity/pure love of Christ...until you die...then voila! You are nothing...and do not exist except in nothingness.... (Moroni 7:

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.)

They existed. You just don't have enough faith. I feel very sorry for you. How sad and angry your life must be. I will pray for you. Perhaps you committed some horrible sin that makes you immune to feeling the FORCE, which would testify to you that what I say is true.

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain :D:lol: funny. LOL

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Originally posted by Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain :D:lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain  :D  :lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

So faith makes it true. I thought that faith was power....to gain truth.

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain  :D  :lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

So faith makes it true. I thought that faith was power....to gain truth.

This wouldn't be the first time you were wrong.....

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain  :D  :lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

So faith makes it true. I thought that faith was power....to gain truth.

This wouldn't be the first time you were wrong.....

LOL...I'm not wrong on that one...but I have been wrong...

Hey...here is a way to know there is a hell, and thus there is a heaven....

Subject: An Atheist

A young girl came home from a date looking sad.

She told her mother,

"Charles proposed to me a few minutes ago."

"Then why are you so sad?" her mother asked.

"Because he also mentioned he was an atheist.

Mom, he doesn't believe there's hell!"

Her mother replied, "Marry him anyway.

Between the two of us, we'll show him how wrong he is.

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 07:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain  :D  :lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

So faith makes it true. I thought that faith was power....to gain truth.

This wouldn't be the first time you were wrong.....

LOL...I'm not wrong on that one...but I have been wrong...

Hey...here is a way to know there is a hell, and thus there is a heaven....

Subject: An Atheist

A young girl came home from a date looking sad.

She told her mother,

"Charles proposed to me a few minutes ago."

"Then why are you so sad?" her mother asked.

"Because he also mentioned he was an atheist.

Mom, he doesn't believe there's hell!"

Her mother replied, "Marry him anyway.

Between the two of us, we'll show him how wrong he is.

I believe in Hell. I work for Satan. Remember?

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Guest Starsky
Originally posted by bat+Jan 26 2004, 07:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Jan 26 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Jan 26 2004, 07:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:41 PM

LOL....you know that is like saying we are believing in ficticous characters...by believing in Christ.

So....knowing that Christ really does exist....makes your comment less serious ...and just plain  :D  :lol: funny. LOL

I didn't say that. Where did you come up with that from?

I don't know if Jesus exists. I've never met him. But I KNOW that Mithra exists. I have faith, and that makes it true.

So faith makes it true. I thought that faith was power....to gain truth.

This wouldn't be the first time you were wrong.....

LOL...I'm not wrong on that one...but I have been wrong...

Hey...here is a way to know there is a hell, and thus there is a heaven....

Subject: An Atheist

A young girl came home from a date looking sad.

She told her mother,

"Charles proposed to me a few minutes ago."

"Then why are you so sad?" her mother asked.

"Because he also mentioned he was an atheist.

Mom, he doesn't believe there's hell!"

Her mother replied, "Marry him anyway.

Between the two of us, we'll show him how wrong he is.

I believe in Hell. I work for Satan. Remember?

Really....well how well does he pay? My husband just got layed off. ;)

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Peace,

You have been provided with proof that Wookies existed on the American Continents for thousands of years. I'd like for you to admit that you were wrong, and I was right so I can gloat about it.

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Guest Starsky

Originally posted by bat@Jan 26 2004, 08:00 PM

I do it for free on the side. It's a very rewarding job.

Well then to H with Satan....my hubby won't do anything for free! LOL
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Guest Starsky

Originally posted by bat@Jan 26 2004, 08:02 PM

Peace,

You have been provided with proof that Wookies existed on the American Continents for thousands of years. I'd like for you to admit that you were wrong, and I was right so I can gloat about it.

LOL...sorry...I am not wrong. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 08:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bat@Jan 26 2004, 08:00 PM

I do it for free on the side.  It's a very rewarding job.

Well then to H with Satan....my hubby won't do anything for free! LOL

I believe you *cough*church callings*cough*. :lol:

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Originally posted by Peace+Jan 26 2004, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 26 2004, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bat@Jan 26 2004, 08:02 PM

Peace,

You have been provided with proof that Wookies existed on the American Continents for thousands of years.  I'd like for you to admit that you were wrong, and I was right so I can gloat about it.

LOL...sorry...I am not wrong. :rolleyes:

Then it should be easy enough to prove. Just as Traveler has criticized BoM critics for being unable to disprove the BoM.

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