Cherub = G-d

[Traveler]

The Prophesy - Geneses 3:24 “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

This prophesy lets us know that man became a fallen creature meaning that he was driven from the presents of G-d. The symbolism is that man no longer had direct access to the tree of life. But the prophesy tells us the following:

1. In order to reach the Tree of Life (eternal life) man must participate in “the way”.

2. The way is overseen or kept by Cherubims - no one can reach the Tree of Life or obtain eternal life without encountering the designated Cherubims.

3. The Cherubims have a flame and sword to assist in their taking care of the way.

4. Because G-d has declared all men seeking eternal life must be able to deal with the Cherubims, the flame and the sword.

The prophesy of the Cherubims is a prophesy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Mediator and Intercessor. The is no other Cherub but Jesus that will assist any man in gaining eternal life. The scriptures declare that Jesus is the keeper of the “way: (John 14:6, and John 10:9). The prophesy of Cherubims keeping the way is fulfilled in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ only. Jesus is that Cherub and there is no other. If I have missed some scripture please correct my ignorance. Note that Jesus declared that no one will receive eternal life but that they enter by the door that is Jesus (John 10:9) or by the way which is also Jesus (John 14:6). There is non other than can assist man in the quest for the tree of life. Jesus is the only way encountered.

But what of the other symbols: I posted before that the answer is in Revelation chapter 19. Lets begin with verse 11: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

Once again we encounter more symbolic prophesy - note now verse 12: “His eyes were as a flame of fire,”

I know of no other scripture that symbolically identifies a flame directly related to man on a quest for eternal life or to partake of the Tree of Life. If I am wrong show me the scripture that declares another with assess to a flame. You may want to look at the complete context but the next point of our discussion concerns verse 15: “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations:” Here we again we see more symbolism this time of a sword and are given more detain of what the symbol means.

Jesus Christ is the Cherub with the sword and the flame - there is no other interpretation of the prophesy of Geneses 3:24 in scripture. If I am wrong please use your scripture and declare the truth. The prophesy of the Cherubims is only given fulfillment in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ and the Cherubim are the same. Jesus is a G-d and he is that Cherubim. A Cherub is a G-d - to deny it is to deny the Christ and the wonderful prophesies pronounced by the Holy scriptures.

The Traveler

[Setheus]

You said in another thread that the Cherubim (<---a plural form of Cherub) always came in two's. Can you expand on that? If this is so then who was Jesus' companion? I'm not sugesting that this mystery cherub is "another way" to the tree of life. I am only curious as to the "two's" question. Why?

[Guest Starsky]

Jesus is always accompanied by the Holy Ghost...

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 5 2004, 06:18 PM

You said in another thread that the Cherubim (<---a plural form of Cherub) always came in two's. Can you expand on that? If this is so then who was Jesus' companion? I'm not sugesting that this mystery cherub is "another way" to the tree of life. I am only curious as to the "two's" question. Why?

Interesting that you remembered. There are several scripture that add the prophesy concerning the Cherubim. As we review these scriptures and go to the next level there is a rather interesting twist.

Please forgive me for not responding but what you ask will take some time to get ready. I expected that someone might have researched this topic at this point but would have missed a couple of things. Most Biblical reference helps miss a couple of very important notions.

Please give me the time to finish.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Man.....didn't we already cover this one............

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by Traveler+Jul 6 2004, 03:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Jul 6 2004, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Jul 5 2004, 06:18 PM

You said in another thread that the Cherubim (<---a plural form of Cherub) always came in two's.  Can you expand on that?  If this is so then who was Jesus' companion?    I'm not sugesting that this mystery cherub is "another way" to the tree of life.  I am only curious as to the "two's" question.  Why?

Interesting that you remembered. There are several scripture that add the prophesy concerning the Cherubim. As we review these scriptures and go to the next level there is a rather interesting twist.

Please forgive me for not responding but what you ask will take some time to get ready. I expected that someone might have researched this topic at this point but would have missed a couple of things. Most Biblical reference helps miss a couple of very important notions.

Please give me the time to finish.

The Traveler

I am very interested in hearing more. :)

[Traveler]

We have established that Genesis 3:34 is a symbolic prophesy that directly involves Jesus Christ. But the word cherubim is plural and the prophecies of Cherubim normally deal with two cherubs. To better understand what is included we need to determine who the second cherub is. Let us now turn to Ezekiel 28: Before we get to specifics the scriptures are going to make a most interesting parallel between the king of Tyrus and a cherub. For later reference remember that the parallel reference includes a king.

Verse 13: “Thou has been in Eden the garden of G-d....” This part is not about the king of Tyrus.

Now verse 14: “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so; thou was upon the holy mountain of G-d;

There is a lot here but note the word “anointed”. This is the Hebrew noun form, means Messiah. Joseph A Fitzmyer, S.J. covers this notion in his book “The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christian Origins” and gives this use of “anointed” as a Messiah king. So we have an anointed king - identified as a cherub that covereth. And that this Cherub was “upon the holy mountain of G-d”. This is symbolism for the Temple of G-d - I would point out that Ezekiel will learn that there is a temple in heaven that is the prototype of the temple that is on earth. This Messiah king cherub is directly connected to the heavenly temple of G-d.

Now verse 16: “...I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of G-d and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub...” Verse 17: “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou has corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness...”

There is more in continuing verses but by now you should understand that this Messiah king cherub is Satan or Lucifer. But what is with the title “cherub that covereth?” But before we go there, this thread is to demonstrate that a cherub is not an angel but a g-d. Can we find a scripture that tells us if Satan is an angel or g-d? Turn now to 2 Corinthians 4:4 “In whom the g-d of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not,...” Here Satan is referred to as the “g-d of this world”. Once again we see the cherub - g-d connection.

Let investigate the covering Cherub. Turn to Exodus 25: Moses is being instructed in preparing the item most sacred in the temple - remember that this is patterned after the temple in heaven. Verse 18: “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, ... in the two ends of the mercy seat.”

Verse 19: “And make one cherub on the one end and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat...” Verse 20: “And the cherubims shall stretch froth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another:”

We learn that the covering cherubims cover the mercy seat or the throne of G-d. One at the right hand of G-d and one at the left hand of G-d. I would point out that the Hebrew word for vale and wing is the same word and if vale is substituted for wings the idea of covering or separating G-d from man with a vale is quite interesting.

Quoting now from Rabbi Yosef ben Yehudah: “Now the literal Hebrew for the line “and their faces shall look one to another;” is, believe it or not:

...and they shall face each one his brother...(Sh’mot 25:19)”

Now we know why there are two. The Brothers are both Messiah, both g-ds, both will be at the throne of G-d when we are judged or attempting to reach the “Tree of life”. But one is a g-d of evil one of good, one of lies one of truth, one of condemnation one of mercy, one an advocate, one an adversary. Remember the epoch of Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. And what then is the good and evil of which man will come to a knowledge of? It is the knowledge of Satan and his work verses Jesus Christ and his works. And this is the choice of agency - to become an agent of Jesus Christ by embracing and doing his works or to become an agent of Satan by embracing and doing his works.

Even the Epoch of Eden testifies of the Christ through the symbolism of the Cherub / G-d that is the keeper of the only way to the Tree of Life. But before I sign off I would like to call one more witness to demonstrate that Jesus is the Cherub who’s rightful place is at the right hand of G-d. Acts 7:55: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of G-d and Jesus standing on the right hand of G-d”. The prophesy of the Cherub who’s place is at the right hand of G-d if fulfilled with the witness of Stephen the see and declares that it is Jesus at G-d’s right hand.

The Traveler

[Guest Peace]

This is awesome Traveler. Thanks.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 5 2004, 10:24 PM

Man.....didn't we already cover this one............

I thought you and I had covered most of this material but you indicated that you missed the symbolism of flame and a sword in Revelation. So I provided more specifics. I assume that if you disagree you would provide scripture reference that better fulfills the prophesy of Genesis. But thanks for reading.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Traveler,

What makes you think that Genesis 3:24 is a prophecy? Furthermore, how do you know that the Cherubs placed to guard the Tree of Life, are not mearly guards, and that Christ who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and is the High Priest, is the one who helps man pass through the Cherubs into heaven?

That's at least another take on the subject. Plus, this concept still allows us to have multiple cherubim, keeps us from turning Christ into a created sub-Angel instead of the Eternal Logos, prevents us from making Christ into a simple gold-plated box that the Hebrews carried around, while preserving our Christian teachings that there is only One God. (And holds at least as much validity as your speculations.)

[Traveler]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 8 2004, 01:04 AM

Traveler,

What makes you think that Genesis 3:24 is a prophecy? Furthermore, how do you know that the Cherubs placed to guard the Tree of Life, are not mearly guards, and that Christ who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and is the High Priest, is the one who helps man pass through the Cherubs into heaven?

That's at least another take on the subject. Plus, this concept still allows us to have multiple cherubim, keeps us from turning Christ into a created sub-Angel instead of the Eternal Logos, prevents us from making Christ into a simple gold-plated box that the Hebrews carried around, while preserving our Christian teachings that there is only One God. (And holds at least as much validity as your speculations.)

First I do not believe that the scriptures are to be taken so lightly as you suggest. If the cherubim are just gards then where is there a story of them garding the tree of life and the garden? Your suggestion that G-d does useless things that have no impact on anythng real just does not sit well with me. And your statement that implies that a cherub is a sub-angel. Would you please supply a scriptural reference. In every case where that there is something tied directly to a cherubim we find that Jesus fulfills that role by withness of scripture. You refuse to show a single scripture to back your claims.

I have supplied scriptural eveidence that a cherub is a g-d not angel and that the scriptures testify of it, but you ignore scripture and scoff at sacred things and turn instead to the wisdom of men you call experts.

I have posted about the Hebrew word "ehad" and how it is used to testify of the unification of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost the same as a husband and wife are "ehad" or one in marriage. It is you that has subsutitued the meaning of "Yahed" as the oneness of G-d even though it is never used in scripture. This goes beyond what you call my speculations to out right rejection of scripture. But I do thank you for reading and hope that you have opened your scriptures and read more from the scripture references I have provided. I hope it has caused you to think about scripture and perhaps even pray for more understanding. If you have not searched these things in scripture and placed your questions before G-d (see James 1:5) - Please consider doing so.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 8 2004, 01:04 AM

Traveler,

What makes you think that Genesis 3:24 is a prophecy?

One more thing - The reason I believe Genesis 3:24 to be prophscy is because I believe the scriptures testify of Christ and that testifying of Jesus Christ is prophecy (See Revelation 19:10)

The Traveler

[Jason]

Traveler,

You said: "First I do not believe that the scriptures are to be taken so lightly as you suggest."

I never said to take them lightly. But I also don't think you should add meaning where none exists.

"If the cherubim are just gards then where is there a story of them garding the tree of life and the garden?"

Genesis 3

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Notice in Chapter 2 that God planted a Garden in Eden. The Garden is NOT Eden proper. And the Cherubims do not guard the entire garden, just the east side.

"Your suggestion that G-d does useless things that have no impact on anythng real just does not sit well with me."

Did I suggest that? All Im saying is that at best, you are speculating, and at worst, misinterpreting and grossly distorting the Bible.

"And your statement that implies that a cherub is a sub-angel. Would you please supply a scriptural reference. In every case where that there is something tied directly to a cherubim we find that Jesus fulfills that role by withness of scripture. You refuse to show a single scripture to back your claims."

How about a dozen of them?

2 Kings 19:15

And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

That should be enough for you right there! But.....

1 Kings 7:29

And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.

Here we read that cherubims are listed with various animals. Is God no better than an animal?

1 Kings 6:35

And he carved thereon cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered them with gold fitted upon the carved work.

Here God is listed with vegetation. Is God no better than a tree?

2 Samuel 6:2

And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.

Here we see that the Cherubim support God, and that God dwells between them. They are NOT God.

Exodus 25:20

And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

1 Chronicles 28:18

And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

Clearly you can see that the Cherubim are not God.

Ezekiel 10:1

Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Why would God's throne be ABOVE the Cherubim?

Ezekiel 10:3

Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

Why would God's presence (eg the "cloud" or Shekina) be separate from the Cherubim?

Ezekiel 10:5

And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

Notice it is NOT the voice of the Almighty, but as if it were.

Ezekiel 10:18

Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Ezekiel 10:19

And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

Ezekiel 10:20

This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.

Notice that God and the Cherubim are distinct.

Ezekiel 41:18

And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;

Is your god two-faced?

"I have supplied scriptural eveidence that a cherub is a g-d not angel and that the scriptures testify of it, but you ignore scripture and scoff at sacred things and turn instead to the wisdom of men you call experts."

I think i've just proven you wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

"I have posted about the Hebrew word "ehad" and how it is used to testify of the unification of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost the same as a husband and wife are "ehad" or one in marriage. It is you that has subsutitued the meaning of "Yahed" as the oneness of G-d even though it is never used in scripture. This goes beyond what you call my speculations to out right rejection of scripture. "

Bringing in seperate argument to support your cherub theory is weak. The Hebrew word has little to do with the argument that God exists as one God/essence and is tri-personal. The Scriptures give evidence that God is multi-personal, and the Scriptures give evidence that there is only one God. [Amos 4:11; Deut 9:10]

"But I do thank you for reading and hope that you have opened your scriptures and read more from the scripture references I have provided. I hope it has caused you to think about scripture and perhaps even pray for more understanding. If you have not searched these things in scripture and placed your questions before G-d (see James 1:5) - Please consider doing so."

I now extend the same invitation to you.

"One more thing - The reason I believe Genesis 3:24 to be prophscy is because I believe the scriptures testify of Christ and that testifying of Jesus Christ is prophecy (See Revelation 19:10)"

Ok. Fair enough.

[Jason]

Oh, and I almost forgot the best part.

Since God dwells above the Cherubim on the Mercy Seat of the Ark, and the Cherubim are also stiched on the curtains and veil of the Temple, that would place them before the presence of God. They are closer in proximity to man that God, and in front of God.

If the Cherubim are gods, as you suggest, then the Almighty has broken His own Commandment!

Exodus 20

3 Thou shalt have no other gods (cherubim or anything else) before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The nail on the coffin of your cherub = god theory.

[Traveler]

Your logic if flawed. You say that Cherubim cannot be g-ds because G-d is greater. Now read John 14:28 "....for my Father is greater than I". Therefore according to your logic Jesus is not G-d or even a g-d. Now in your mind, since Jesus is not as great as the Father and there for not G-d or a g-d, is he greater than the cherubim?

As for my adding the discussion of "ehad" - this was in response to your post that G-d is singular. I thought it would be okay to respond since you brought it up - sorry I did not totally understand it is okay for you to introduce something but I should not respond. But since it is now on the table again. I responded that the use of "ehad" implies many coming together in unity but the unity does not define a singular entity. The word for singularity you are looking for is "Yahed" - which means many parts forming one entity (in this case G-d). You keep trying to imply that “ehad” defines a singular entity but you are wrong in this format. The example is a man and a woman becoming one in marriage - this is how the scriptures define the unity of the G-d head. But marriage is not an entity. If the scriptures use “yahed” and not “ehad” then you would be correct in your examples. But the scriptures do not agree with you.

But there is one more problem - John 17:21-23 : “That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one....”

Therefor if the uniting of person makes a G-d as you say - then the believers will also be united and be a G-d also because their unity is just like the persons that unify for G-d. If you understand the law of transitivity you know and understand there must be something wrong with your logic somewhere. That logic I leave to the reader.

P.S. You have not responded to the scriptures saying Satan is a Cherub and also that he is a g-d. You seem to have truble understanding the distinction between a g-d and the G-d.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Traveler,

You said: "Your logic if flawed. You say that Cherubim cannot be g-ds because G-d is greater."

No. I said that the Bible teaches us that there is only One God. And that cherubim are not gods because there is only ONE God.

"Now read John 14:28 "....for my Father is greater than I". Therefore according to your logic Jesus is not G-d or even a g-d."

Wrong. John 10:30 says: "I and my Father are one." Jesus is God the Father incarnated as the Son.

" Now in your mind, since Jesus is not as great as the Father and there for not G-d or a g-d, is he greater than the cherubim?"

Your mind works in mysterious ways..............

"I responded that the use of "ehad" implies many coming together in unity but the unity does not define a singular entity. The word for singularity you are looking for is "Yahed" - which means many parts forming one entity (in this case G-d). You keep trying to imply that “ehad” defines a singular entity but you are wrong in this format."

Your opinion aside, who else agrees with you?

"But there is one more problem - John 17:21-23 : “That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one....” Therefor if the uniting of person makes a G-d as you say - then the believers will also be united and be a G-d also because their unity is just like the persons that unify for G-d."

Did you even read that verse? Christ prayed that we could be one for what purpose? It says: "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." And giving Glory does NOT mean to deify man. That is your private interpretation. Who else agrees with you on this?

"If you understand the law of transitivity you know and understand there must be something wrong with your logic somewhere. That logic I leave to the reader."

I'd say it was the other way around. You're coming to the table with a conclusion, and backtracking to find evidence to support it. Transivity means if a person prefers A to B and prefers B to C, he prefers A to C. Please tell me how my logic defies transivity.

"P.S. You have not responded to the scriptures saying Satan is a Cherub and also that he is a g-d. You seem to have truble understanding the distinction between a g-d and the G-d."

Satan is called "the god of this world". That is true. Yet Holy Scriptures also teach that there is only ONE GOD. Therefore, anything that is not THE GOD, is a false god. Which is no god at all.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jul 8 2004, 06:07 PM

You seem to have truble understanding the distinction between a g-d and the G-d.

This scripture tells us the difference between a god and the one true God:

You people of Israel, listen to what the Lord has to say to you. The Lord says,

“Do not learn to follow the religious practices of the nations.

Do not be in awe of signs that occur in the sky

even though the nations hold them in awe.

For the religion of these people is worthless.

For example, they cut down a tree in the forest.

And a craftsman makes it into an idol with his tools.

He decorates it with overlays of silver and gold.

He uses hammer and nails to fasten it together

so that it will not fall over.

Such idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field.

They cannot talk.

They have to be carried

because they cannot walk.

Do not be afraid of them

because they cannot hurt you.

And they don’t have any power to help you, either.”

I said,

“There is no one like you, Lord.

You are great.

And you are well-known for your power.

Everyone should revere you, O King of all nations.

That is because you deserve to be revered.

For neither among all the wise people of the nations nor among all their kings

is there anyone that is like you.

The people of those nations are both stupid and foolish.

What they learn from those worthless idols

is no better than the wood those idols are made of!

Hammered-out silver is brought from Tarshish

and gold is brought from Uphaz to cover those idols.

They are the handiwork of carpenters and goldsmiths.

They are clothed in blue and purple clothes.

They are all made by skillful workers.

The Lord is the only true God.

He is the living God and the everlasting King.

When he shows his anger the earth shakes.

None of the nations can stand up to his fury.

(You people of Israel should tell those nations this:

‘These gods did not make heaven and earth.

And they will disappear from the earth and from under the heavens.’)

The Lord is the one who by his power made the earth.

He is the one who by his wisdom fixed the world in place.

And by his understanding he spread out the heavens.

When his voice thunders, the waters in the heavens roar.

He makes the clouds rise from the far-off horizons.

He makes the lightning flash out in the midst of the rain.

He unleashes the wind from the places where he stores it.

All these idolaters will prove to be stupid and ignorant.

Every goldsmith will be disgraced by the idol he made.

For the image he forges is merely a sham.

There is no breath in any of those idols.

They are worthless, objects to be made fun of.

When the time comes to punish them, they will be destroyed.

The Lord, who is the portion of Jacob’s descendants, is not like them.

He is the one who created everything.

And the people of Israel are those he claims as his own.

He is known as the Lord who rules over all.”

(Jeremiah 10:1-16) (NET bible translation)

M.

[Traveler]

I have been thinking a lot about Jason’s post concerning cherubim being less than G-d. He called them sub-angels that are “between” G-d and man. He gave several scriptures to prove this point. The more I have ponder these scripture and thought about his witness I realize how important it is that we consider his words on this matter.

The idea that there must be something between G-d and man is an important notion in the fall and gospel of Jesus Christ. Another word for the cherub between G-d and man is “Mediator”. A mediator is one that is between. Please turn to your scriptures - 1Timothy 2:5: “For there is one G-d, and one mediator between G-d and men, the man Christ Jesus”. Here we learn that the only possibility of anything between G-d and man is Jesus Christ. Therefore the Cherub whom the scriptures (and Jason) testify is between G-d and man must be Jesus Christ.

Once again we see how the scriptures are fulfilled in Jesus Christ and how the scriptures testify of him (see John 5:39).

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Mareen: Perhapse you missed the witness of Paul:

2 Corinthians 4:Verse 4

In whom the g-d of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you believe this scripture when it says Satan is "the g-d of this world"?

The Traveler

[Jason]

Traveler,

You said: "Another word for the cherub between G-d and man is “Mediator”. A mediator is one that is between. Please turn to your scriptures - 1Timothy 2:5: “For there is one G-d, and one mediator between G-d and men, the man Christ Jesus”. Here we learn that the only possibility of anything between G-d and man is Jesus Christ. Therefore the Cherub whom the scriptures (and Jason) testify is between G-d and man must be Jesus Christ."

If I may borrow a few words from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The word cherub (cherubim is the Hebrew masculine plural) is a word borrowed from the Assyrian kirubu, from karâbu, "to be near", hence it means near ones, familiars, personal servants, bodyguards, courtiers. It was commonly used of those heavenly spirits, who closely surrounded the Majesty of God and paid Him intimate service. Hence it came to mean as much as "Angelic Spirit". (The change from K of Karâbu, to K of Kirub is nothing unusual in Assyrian. The word has been brought into connection with the Egyptian Xefer by metathesis from Xeref=K-r-bh.) A similar metathesis and play upon sound undoubtedly exists between Kerub and Rakab, "to ride", and Merkeba, "chariot". The late Jewish explanation by analogy between Kerub and Rekûb, "a youth", seems worthless. The word ought to be pronounced in English qerub and querubim, and not with a soft ch....

"As Jehovah was surrounded by figures of cherubim in His Sanctuary on earth, so He is, according to Scripture, surrounded in reality by cherubim in His Court above. The function ascribed to these heavenly servants of God's Majesty is that of throne-bearers, or "carriers", of His Divine Majesty. In Psalm 17 the psalmist describes the sudden descent of Jehovah to rescue a soul in distress in the following words: "He bowed the heavens and came down, and darkness was under His feet. He rode upon a cherub and flew upon the wings of the wind." The idea of cherubim as the chariot of God seems indicated in I Paralip. 18, where David gives gold for the Temple cherubim, who are described as "the Chariot", not, probably, because they had the outward shape of a vehicle, but because the Temple cherubim symbolized the swift-winged living thrones upon which the Almighty journeys through the heavens....

"...Indirectly we can gather from this passage that Cherubim were conceived to be in a state of perfection, wisdom, sinlessness, nearness to God on His Holy Mountain and of preternatural glory and happiness. Unfortunately, the words paraphrased as "with wings outstretched in protection" are difficult to translate: the Hebrew term may mean "cherub of anointing, who covers", therefore a royal, anointed being, overshadowing others with its wings to shelter them. If this be so, we must add royalty and beneficence to the characteristics of cherubim....

"Notwithstanding the present common opinion of advanced Protestant scholars, that cherubim are only symbolic representations of abstract ideas, the Catholic Church undoubtedly holds that there are actually existing spiritual beings corresponding to the name. That Old Testament writers used the word cherubim to designate angels, not merely to express ideas, can be best gathered from Gen., iii, 24, where God sets cherubim at the entrance of Paradise. This sentence would bear no sense at all if cherubim did not stand for ministerial beings, differing from man, carrying out the behest of God. Likewise, it is difficult to read Ezechiel and to persuade oneself that the Prophet does not presuppose the actual existence of real personal beings under the name of Cherubim; in chaps. i and x he speaks again and again of "living beings", and he says the spirit of life was within them, and repeatedly points out that the bodily forms he sees are but appearances of the living beings thus mentioned. The living beings (zoa) so often mentioned in St. John's Apocalypse can only be taken as parallel to those in Ezechiel, and their personal existence in St. John's mind cannot be doubted. The frequent sentence also: "who sittest upon the Cherubim" (I Sam., iv, 4; II Sam., vi, 2; IV Kings, xix; Is., xxxvii, 37, 16; Pss. lxxix, 2 and xcviii, 1), though no doubt referring to Jehovah's actual dwelling in the Holy of Holies, yet is better understood as referring to the heavenly throne-bearers of God. There can be no doubt that the later Jews -- that is, from 200 B.C. onwards -- looked upon the cherubim as real angelic beings; the angelology of the Book of Enoch and the apocryphal Books of Esdras give us an undeniable testimony on this point....

"So the Christian Church from the first accepted the personality of the cherubim and early adopted Philo's interpretation of the name. Clem. Alex.: "The name Cherubim intends to show much understanding (aisthesin pollen)." (Stromata, V, 240.) Though counted amongst the angels during the first centuries of Christianity, the cherubim and seraphim were not mentioned in the lists of the angelic hierarchy. At first but seven choirs of angels were reckoned, i.e. those enumerated (Eph., i, 21 and Col., i, 16), with the addition of angeli et archangeli. Thus St. Irenaeus, Haer.II, xxx, and Origen, Peri archon, I, v. But soon it was realized that the Apostle's list was not intended to be a complete one, and the Old Testament angelic beings mentioned by Ezechiel and Isaias, the cherubim and seraphim, and others were added, so that we have eight, nine, or ten, or even eleven ranks in the hierarchy. The cherubim and seraphim were sometimes thought to be but other names for thrones and virtues (Gregory of Nyssa, "Contra Eunom.", I; Augustine in Ps., xcviii, 3). Since Psuedo-Dionys., De Caelesti Hier. (written about A.D. 500), the ninefold division of the angelic order has been practically universal; and the cherubim and seraphim take the highest place in the hierarchy, a rank which was ascribed to them already by St. Cyril of Jerusalem (370) and by St. Chrysostom (about 400), and which Pope Gregory the Great, once aprocrisarius or nuncio at Constantinople, made familiar to the West. Pope Gregory divided the nine angelic orders into three choirs, the highest choir being: thrones, cherubim, and seraphim. Of the cherubim he says (Hom. in Ev., xxxiv, 10), that cherubim means "the fulness of knowledge, and these most sublime hosts are thus called, because they are filled with a knowledge which is the more perfect as they are allowed to behold the glory of God more closely". This explanation of St. Gregory is ultimately derived from Philo's similar statement, and was already combined with the Old Testament function of the cherubim by St. Augustine in his sublime comment on Ps., lxxix, 2, "Who sitteth upon the Cherubim"...

"Cherubim means the Seat of the Glory of God and is interpreted: Fulness of Knowledge. Though we realize that cherubim are exalted heavenly powers and virtues; yet if thou wilt, thou too shalt be one of the cherubim. For if cherubim means, Seat of God, remember what the Scripture says: The soul of the just is the Seat of Wisdom."

Just to add some things to the discussion.....

[Jason]

Traveler,

Do you really believe that Satan/Lucifer is a god? What I don't understand is that your beliefs depart both from Orthodox Christianity, and even from your Mormon theology. Orthodox Christians believe in ONE God, therefore no other can be God, or even "a" god. Since, as i've stated before, a false god is no god at all. Mormons believe that you must be a resurrected man, having fulfilled the Temple Endowment, in order to attain godhood. Since Mormon theology believes that Lucifer and Christ were "spirit brothers" but that Lucifer never received a body, he cannot properly be a god in that sense either.

Now, perhaps, we can say with some certainty that when Paul called Satan "the god of this world" he meant that those who falsely worship the world, especially at the neglect of worship to Him who alone deserves our praise, are in a sense worshiping the false god we call the Devil. Remember, a false god is not a god. Furthermore, the actual greek says "THE GOD OF THIS AGE", not the god of this world. The age of paganism was coming to an end (in the west anyway) and Satan rules over false beliefs.

So how do you defend your particular and unique beliefs?

PS. McConkie's text "Mormon Doctrine" defines Cherubim as one of the orders of Angels. It seems that you alone hold this particular belief.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 11 2004, 05:18 PM

"Cherubim means the Seat of the Glory of God and is interpreted: Fulness of Knowledge. Though we realize that cherubim are exalted heavenly powers and virtues; yet if thou wilt, thou too shalt be one of the cherubim. For if cherubim means, Seat of God, remember what the Scripture says: The soul of the just is the Seat of Wisdom."

This backs up what The Traveler is saying. ie Cheribum are "exalted". To be Exalted is to gain godhood. Or to recieve ALL that the Father has. To be JOINT heirs with Christ.

You have just won a point for Traveler.

[Jason]

Sethus,

You said: "To be Exalted is to gain godhood."

Of course, in Mormon theology, Exaltation is to receive the 2nd anointing spoken of in the Endowment, and have one's calling and election made sure. This, along with a few other things, ensure the faithful mormon of the much desired status of god. What you must not confuse, however, is that in Orthodox Christianity, Exaltation is not understood in the same manner. Furthermore, Orthodox Christians do not believe that Angels have bodies, nor will they ever have them. They were created specifically to be ministering spirits for all of time.

"You have just won a point for Traveler."

I guess he's got to have a few now and then. B)

[porterrockwell]

I don't know if this helps, but one of the very wealthy members I work for purchased a painting from a Mormon painter($1000) which showed the tree, 4 young women in white gowns with heads bowed around a flaming sword. Whatever that's worth, that's what I think of it as.

Another thing that I have noticed, is that more and more I am gaining a testimony that we learn things line upon line, precept upon precept. When I read this thread, I just get the feeling that some times we jump too far ahead of what we are ready to know. Anyway, just a thought.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 12 2004, 09:45 PM

Sethus,

You said: "To be Exalted is to gain godhood."

Of course, in Mormon theology, Exaltation is to receive the 2nd anointing spoken of in the Endowment, and have one's calling and election made sure. This, along with a few other things, ensure the faithful mormon of the much desired status of god. What you must not confuse, however, is that in Orthodox Christianity, Exaltation is not understood in the same manner. Furthermore, Orthodox Christians do not believe that Angels have bodies, nor will they ever have them. They were created specifically to be ministering spirits for all of time.

"You have just won a point for Traveler."

I guess he's got to have a few now and then. B)

I am personally not comfortable with talking about things of the temple, especially pertaining to endowments.

However, exaltation as far as I am concerned allows us the opportunity to progress through obedience and futher knowledge and become LIKE the Father. To have that stewardship will still take a great work. "Gospel Doctrine" by Joseph F. Smith has a lot of great stuff on this topic...but I digress.

And not to attack you or anything. But why would the Lord create a spirit and deny it the agency and earthly experience that is his plan. There are just too many missing links in Constantine Christianity. But I won't get into this one, because it would take hundreds of pages for me to explain the whole bit....at that point I might as well write a book.