Do murderers have a chance for redemption in the spirit world?

[rameumptom]

A nice example to look at for an answer is looking at King David and Uriah.

Doctrine and Covenants 132

Latter-day Saint Community

He'll be living in the Telestial kingdon. Right now he's spending a long time weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth, but...

On the other hand, if you murder with out having the gospel, receive the gospel and repent, it sounds like you can be fully forgiven. The Book of Mormon has examples of this.

Murder after you receive the Gospel and you better be ready to have a very HOT experience for a looong time! Now exactly the type of hot experience you'll enjoy!!!

I am not convinced that King David will only obtain a telestial glory. Has he lost his exaltation? Probably. But I believe that the atonement is stronger than some members tend to think.

David spent long periods of time repenting, and while he did some terrible things, I also believe that he did many great things. I do not believe one or two acts determines a person's eternal outcome. I believe it is a life long determination. When the books are opened and we are judged for our works, we will be judged for all our works, including our repentance.

[rameumptom]

Minsters in the spirit world are those that have the gospel and are bringing it to those with out the Gospel.

Rameumptom: Ministers are those who teach higher truths to those awaiting more knowledge. Celestial beings will descend to the terrestrial kingdom to teach them, while terrestrial beings will descend to the telestial to teach them. In this way, all have the ability to learn and grow within their sphere of glory.

The versus your quote is about those in the Telestial Kingdom, this is more showing how those from the Higher Kingdoms can go down to the lower kingdoms, but the lower kingdoms can’t go up. I don’t really know how much teaching/ministration would happen because.

1. you don’t change from Telestial to Terrestial, that’s why its called a final Judgment.

2. There isn’t enough light and truth in the Telestial Kingdom to teach them the fullness of the gospel.

Rameumptom: Most Church leaders today agree there is no progress between kingdoms. Still, there is no definitive scriptural statement establishing it one way or the other. It may be there is, but we are not taught it now, as many would consider it a second chance to exaltation, while having this world as a place to be riotous. As it is, since we do not know if progression between kingdoms is real or not, it is best to think there isn't progression, so as not to mistakenly lead oneself down a primrose path to a lower kingdom.

Those that are still left in the Spirit Prison after everybody had a chance to accept the gospel, then go to OD, and then Telestial. Mostly because the Telestail get judged last.

I’m not sure if those that are in the spirit world, that re-accpet the gospel (after it was taught to them AGAIN) that are ending up going to the Terrestial kingdom, if they stay in spirit prison or if they get to go to the other side.

/

Ram:

Sorry, only the sons of perdition go to Outer Darkness. From there, they stay permanently in Outer Darkness, the only place they are willing to abide - a place with no glory. The telestial will pay for any sins not repented of, then be redeemed from Spirit prison hell during the second resurrection. The telestial will not go to OD.

As I understand it, once a person has fully repented or paid for sins, they are released to paradise to await the resurrection. I tend to view Alma's experience as a near death experience in Spirit Prison/Paradise. Even after seeing an angel, his stubbornness and refusal to give up his disbelief and sins caused him to suffer extremely for 3 days. Only then was he compelled enough to be humble to repent and be released from the prison of sin's guilt. Most of us repent, but not of everything. We all tend to cling onto some weaknesses and sins, which we will pay for until we are humble enough to turn it completely over to Christ. Only then will the buffetings of Satan (D&C 132) end for even the righteous.

[jadams_4040]

From what I understand there is a belief that repentance in this life with due penalty is required?

Yes you are correct, and the "due penalty" part of it is very important, thats the same as the "uttermost farthling".

:)

[WANDERER]

I find it bothers me...the whole idea of supporting a death penalty. It won't ensure repentance. It won't change the 1000 years. And, they may be innocent (some have been).

A voluntary aspect to it also chills me in that it is alike to suicide and the penalties of that are ....

[rameumptom]

Where does this idea come from that there is suffering in the Spirit Prison?

There is spirit prison with out the gospel… but the so called Suffer (or Hell) part is AFTER spirit prison not during it?

I thought this was clear, but it seems like there is still some confusion?

Death -> Spirit Prison (for those with out the gospel) -> choose not to repent (to accept Christ and the atonement) -> Send to Outer Darkness during the Millennium to pay for there sins -> Resurrected at the last judgment to go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Also, the term Repent is used pretty loosely here (by me at least) those that are sent to OD aren’t really repenting, they are more just paying the price of Justice (for the law).

Repentance would have to come during Spirit Prison, and before the judgment (that would send them to OD). That’s why its kind of tough to really understand what level of Repentance would happen. I would think, if somebody does fully repent (as much as possible) they wouldn’t be going to the Telestial Kingdom, but go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

That’s the big different between the Terrestrial and Telestial, one accepts Christ and the Atonement, the other doesn’t. Its really all depending on how accountable we are. For Faithful members its really tough to overcome how far we can fall!

Tubaloth, could you provide us with references to the hell being during the Millennium? My studies of the gospel suggest it is ongoing for the unrepented, until they fully repent of their sins.

[Elphaba]

F--t, you want us to leave you alone, yet you continue to set yourself up with posts that beg answers and exploitation of your belief system. Remember where you are posting? This is LDS.net.(emphasis mine)

This is outrageous. "Remember where you are posting?" Why the need for the veiled threat?

Apparently many of you here don't like fent's posts, but I do. They often resonate with me. Additionally, she writes well (unlike Xtian's lengthy tirade that uses lots of syllables incorrectly), and she feels very strongly about her experiences that have shaped her beliefs. Just like you do yours.

Then Xtian writes the most outrageous personal attack of a member of this board I've ever seen, even though he tries to be sly and contends he'll send you the real attack if you PM him. And then you write a veiled threat against her?

It is my understanding we "ex-Mormons" are as entitled to be here, and write posts, as you are. So am I also subject to your thought-stopping warning: "Remember where you are?" Are all non-LDS? Or is it only the ones who get "uppity" with the members?

It's one thing to disagree with fent, or even to be irritated with her. It is another to personally attack her on the board. Additionally, it is my understanding it is also against the rules.

Either way, LDS or non, it is unethical to let such a boorish attack stay on the board, with no repercussions.

In fact, I'd report Xtian's post, but many of you are allready here. One of you actually thanked his attack!

If you don't like what she writes, then ignore her!

Elphaba

[skalenfehl]

Elphaba, I don't know if you read the entire thread or her posts before she deleted them. She asked a legitimate and hypothetical question to which I and others answered. She asked a religious question and was given a religious answer. We have privately exchanged conversations and I have edited posts as has she. The fact remains if someone asks a religious question in a religious forum, they will get a religious answer, but I'm not perfect and can't give her perfect answers. In retrospect I definitely could have worded that better. For this I do apologize. I'd be willing to discuss this with you and fent in a private chat if you'd like.

[nannysherri]

This has become quite a topic, and the answers are always found though not when we think we want an answer. Remember we are taught line upon line, and if you get angry or offended allot of time it is because you are trying to get to Z when you are really still at the beginning. Another problem is because there is quilt somewhere and guilt is a good thing it can bring a person to the beginning of the repentance process. Perhaps instead of the contention we can focus on the love of a Hevenly Father and how much he loves us and willing to give us all including answers.

[Guest Xzain]

Once again, Elphaba, we find ourselves at odds. This time it's not over equivocal wording, however- you jump to conclusion without having the whole story.

Additionally, [fent] writes well (unlike Xtian's lengthy tirade that uses lots of syllables incorrectly)...

Just for 'kicks and giggles', would you explain for everyone the proper use of syllables in prose? I was not aware of a need for syllabic conformity among the masses, and less aware that one could be faulted for using nonconventional style in one's communication.

Then Xtian writes the most outrageous personal attack of a member of this board I've ever seen, even though he tries to be sly and contends he'll send you the real attack if you PM him. And then you write a veiled threat against her?

I think it would be good to note that I said I would send it if anyone has 'a valid reason' for perusing it- as I told fent via PM, that 'valid reason' would be akin to a moderator requiring it, or fent herself desiring a copy of it. Nothing less. Looking back, I admit the wording could mislead one into thinking I would pass out copies of an 'attack' post willy-nilly, but such was not my intention, nor would I ever stoop to such a position.

I should also note that I removed it to help protect fent's reputation. I saved a copy of it because I sensed it would attract major attention. It has, but so far no one has required it of me.

It is my understanding we "ex-Mormons" are as entitled to be here, and write posts, as you are. So am I also subject to your thought-stopping warning: "Remember where you are?" Are all non-LDS? Or is it only the ones who get "uppity" with the members?

Of course all non-LDS persons are allowed to post here. They are not allowed to post however and whatever they like without response and, if it arises, question. Or, in this case, dissection. Many others not of the LDS faith post here and are quite content with the treatment they receive. The best I can make of skalenfehl's remark, is that he is suggesting one looks beyond bare-bone rules and into the actual religious milieu of the board.

It's one thing to disagree with fent, or even to be irritated with her. It is another to personally attack her on the board. Additionally, it is my understanding it is also against the rules.

There was not a shred of 'attack' in my original post (other than word usage, meant to convey 'frustration', 'anger', and 'indignation') that I didn't back with valid evidence and explanatory clauses. I sense you haven't read the whole original post. Nor did you have the oppurtunity, I am sure, to dissect the history of fent's posting on this thread- when it was questioned, she deleted all her comments. Don't judge what you haven't read. My edited post was a summary of the first, with enough explanation that one could understand fent's subsequent wrath. (Since I have edited my post she has edited her initial response to it; this may explain some of the confusion as to why I left the substance of my original post in my edited version)

I haven't removed that post simply because I don't want to join in the 'let's-delete-our-controversial-posts!' game. Nor do I believe simply deleting evidence of one's behavior is a valid excuse to escape the repercussions of said behavior.

Either way, LDS or non, it is unethical to let such a boorish attack stay on the board, with no repercussions.

In fact, I'd report Xtian's post, but many of you are allready here. One of you actually thanked his attack!

The moderators already had a discussion about it, I am told- I was not a part of it. Both thanks to my post were given before I edited it- that might give you an idea as to the actual merit it may (or may not; you decide) have held.

For the record- my post was almost entirely about her posting methodology and public behavior- it had nothing of (substance) to do with her beliefs, and was far from an attempted refutation to her stated views. My post incorporated her views only enough to illustrate the religious difference she had with those arguing with her. There was one paragraph in the end where I explained why most faithful members of the LDS community acted the way they did when fent's situation was brought up.

For the record- my screen name is 'Xzain'.

I have written one public response to one public post- if you wish to continue, I would ask you to do it via PM, where I will happily discuss the situation with you. You might also take skalenfehl up on his offer.

[Elphaba]

For the record- my screen name is 'Xzain'.

I apologize for my mispelling. I should have checked it before I posted, especially as I am critical of others who do not do the same.

I have written one public response to one public post-

No, you've now written two, and "response" is not an accurate description. A personal attack is a personal attack, no matter how you try to couch it.

I have at least four people on this board who I know despise me, and I truly mean "despise." They have never written a post about me like you did about fent.

You don't seem to understand that the words you left in your post were still an attack, and it was still inexcusable.

You might also take skalenfehl up on his offer.

I already did. I stand by my post completely.

Elphaba

[rameumptom]

Let me ask a question that I guess I am still confused on. I've always been taught that "murder" is one of the unforgiveable sins. When you have the Mansons of the world...where do they fit in?

Elder Spencer W. Kimball described the difference between unpardonable and unforgiveable sins in Miracle of Forgiveness, at least as he then understood it. Unpardonable means a person cannot receive a kingdom of glory. Unforgiveable means a person cannot receive exaltation (although some read it as meaning a telestial glory only).

I think our understanding of gospel principles have moved further along since the 1950s and 1960s, when much was written in authoritative voice that may or may not have been completely accurate (hence each author claims responsibility for his own writings). I think most members are now moving on from the Hemispheric Geography Model, to the Limited Geography Model for the Book of Mormon, for instance.

While those early books often focused on obedience over faith/grace, and often focused more on the restoration than on the atonement, we have returned to a better and more accurate balance in gospel thinking.

While many General Authorities taught and understood the atonement in the Penal Substitution theory taught by the Reformers. As we obtain better critical contextual studies of LDS scripture, we are now looking at new theories that tend to fit LDS writings much better (Book of Mormon, D&C 17, 88, 93, etc.). These theories include Blake Ostler's Compassion Theory, and other Divine Infusion type theories.

Most of these see Christ's atonement as infusing us with the Light of Christ, which purifies us and makes us holy. The more we approach God, we move from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (light infusion) (D&C 93). Eventually, at the last judgment, we will be judged by the amount of light we have received into our lives - or what we've become. Becoming Christ-like is a key here, not just obedience. Christ condemned those Jews who did marvelous works, but did not become as he was. And lately, Apostles are speaking about our need to become, such as Elder Bednar, and Elder Nelson.

Given King David's entire life, and the years of repentance in sack cloth and ashes he experienced after his terrible sins and crimes, I do not believe he will be left in the Telestial Kingdom. Now, can he merit exaltation? I do not know. However, I must believe that Christ's atonement can atone even for murder. The question is whether after such a crime, can we become holy enough to be like Him. And that is a question we just cannot answer here, as that info has not been revealed.

[tubaloth]

Rameumptom: Ministers are those who teach higher truths to those awaiting more knowledge. Celestial beings will descend to the terrestrial kingdom to teach them, while terrestrial beings will descend to the telestial to teach them. In this way, all have the ability to learn and grow within their sphere of glory.

I assume there is some type of teaching. Are we talking Primary Class or Gospel Doctrine. Both of these are teaching Higher Truths, but you only go so far, based of the capacity of the individual. Even more, before this time Telestial beings had the Celestial law taught them, and rejected it. That’s why the are in the Telestial World. I guess I just don’t see the “use” to teaching Telestial beings about how Celestial Life is? Does that really help them, or just make Telestial Kingdom more of a hell.

Rameumptom: Most Church leaders today agree there is no progress between kingdoms. Still, there is no definitive scriptural statement establishing it one way or the other. It may be there is, but we are not taught it now, as many would consider it a second chance to exaltation, while having this world as a place to be riotous. As it is, since we do not know if progression between kingdoms is real or not, it is best to think there isn't progression, so as not to mistakenly lead oneself down a primrose path to a lower kingdom.

We do know at least there is no progression out of the Telestial kingdom.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:109-112.)

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

We do know that those in the Telestial won’t go to the Terrestial (where Christ is) or Celestial (where God is). We then do assume this carries over to the Terrestial Kingdom, but you are right we don’t know. But it is clear for those in the Telestial.

Sorry, only the sons of perdition go to Outer Darkness. From there, they stay permanently in Outer Darkness, the only place they are willing to abide - a place with no glory. The telestial will pay for any sins not repented of, then be redeemed from Spirit prison hell during the second resurrection. The telestial will not go to OD.

What? How are still on two different pages?

Where does it say people pay for sins in Spirit Prison? (the same place they are being taught the gospel?) Are we talking about two different rooms in spirit prision, if you don’t accept the gospel you go into room number 2?

The hell we are talking about is Outer Darkness, not spirit prison. This hell happens after the Judgement and before the final resurrection. This is Not in the spirit world!

That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)

(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 349.)

As I understand it, once a person has fully repented or paid for sins, they are released to paradise to await the resurrection.

This would be true for those ending up in the Terrestial (those that already had the gospel) and Celestial Kingdom (those that never had the gospel). They repent (accept Christ) and move on to more light (then Spirit Prison). But we are talking about Telestial Kingdom. These are the ones that reject Christ. (no atonement, no repentance) Thus they have to pay for there own sins. This isn’t done in the spirit world/prison. These are the ones that are thrust down to hell. They are there until they have satisfied the demands of a Terresial Law. Or really until the end of the Millennium, when they come forth in the final Resurrection.

These are the ones spoke of by Jesus Christ in D&C 19.

Sons of Perdition take this one step farther. They know Christ and the saving power and still turn there back on it! These are the ones that well be in Outer Darkness forever.

Tubaloth, could you provide us with references to the hell being during the Millennium? My studies of the gospel suggest it is ongoing for the unrepented, until they fully repent of their sins.

I posted most of this in an early post (probably around page 3 or 4) Its from D&C 76.

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-85.)

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

The devil isn’t in the spirit world causing suffering, that would be Outer Darkness. So these well not come forth until after they have been trust down to hell (OD), and after everybody else has been resurrection, which is at the end of the millennium. Right?

It isn't? I was under the impression that accepting Christ, led to being born again. Being "born again"... (say it with me). You become a new person, and lay down the old man. Doesnt this lead to a tabula rasa situation? It seems contradictive to first say okay all´s forgiven AND forgotten, but it will still be held against you when deciding where you go after death...

That wasn’t what I was getting out. Past Sins are forgiven, but you aren’t forgiven of future sins. Repentance is a process of overcoming our weaknesses. As we fall, we repent (change) and make things right. The idea that I only need to repent once, and I’m saved isn’t LDS doctrine. Really we aren’t completely “saved” until we have overcome all our weaknesses. Full Salvation doesn’t come until after this life. What we are doing now is doing are best to overcome our weakness (through Christ). And chart a course that LEADS us to salvation.

[rameumptom]

I assume there is some type of teaching. Are we talking Primary Class or Gospel Doctrine. Both of these are teaching Higher Truths, but you only go so far, based of the capacity of the individual. Even more, before this time Telestial beings had the Celestial law taught them, and rejected it. That’s why the are in the Telestial World. I guess I just don’t see the “use” to teaching Telestial beings about how Celestial Life is? Does that really help them, or just make Telestial Kingdom more of a hell.

We do know at least there is no progression out of the Telestial kingdom.

Rameumptom: The current teachings of the Church leaders is there is no progression between kingdoms. Previous apostles have considered it a possibility, and there are ways to read the scriptures that could suggest a progression. Even if there is no progression between kingdoms, there is always progression within a kingdom. There is no reason why a lower kingdom could progress eternally, just not have the ability of becoming gods.

We do know that those in the Telestial won’t go to the Terrestial (where Christ is) or Celestial (where God is). We then do assume this carries over to the Terrestial Kingdom, but you are right we don’t know. But it is clear for those in the Telestial.

What? How are still on two different pages?

Where does it say people pay for sins in Spirit Prison? (the same place they are being taught the gospel?) Are we talking about two different rooms in spirit prision, if you don’t accept the gospel you go into room number 2?

The hell we are talking about is Outer Darkness, not spirit prison. This hell happens after the Judgement and before the final resurrection. This is Not in the spirit world!

Ram: In the Spirit World is where sins are paid for. Most presume that Spirit Prison and hell can be synonymous. For those who have paid for their sins, they can still await the resurrection there. Outer Darkness is preserved for the sons of perdition. D&C 132 tells us that even the elect who sin must go through the buffetings of Satan prior to exaltation. And both resurrections occur PRIOR to the Final Judgment (Millennial Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie, pg 620). There are judgments that occur prior to the final judgment, such as the burning that will occur at the 2nd Coming.

And it IS all in the Spirit World. Only the sons of perdition will go to Outer Darkness.

Pres Benson stated:

Even before the fall of Adam, which ushered death into this world, our Heavenly Father had prepared a place for the spirits who would eventually depart this mortal life. At the time of Jesus’ death, the spirit world was occupied by hosts of our Father’s children who had died—from Adam’s posterity to the death of Jesus—both the righteous and the wicked.

There were two grand divisions in the world of spirits. Spirits of the righteous (the just) had gone to paradise, a state of happiness, peace, and restful work. The spirits of the wicked (the unjust) had gone to prison, a state of darkness and misery. (See Alma 40:12–15.) Jesus went only to the righteous—to paradise.

D&C 138 states:

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

And Alma 40 holds the clincher:

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Yes, Alma (or Joseph Smith) calls it Outer Darkness, but it is clearly Spirit Prison that is spoken of. Now, whether outer darkness and spirit prison hell are the same, we do not know. But the punishment occurs PRIOR to resurrection and final judgment. When tied to D&C 138, D&C 19, and Alma's conversion story in 36, it seems to me that one suffers in spirit prison UNTIL he turns all of his sins over to Christ and fully and completely repents. This includes righteous people who will be buffeted by Satan (D&C 132) prior to being exalted. It is in this way that all will bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Christ, if for no other reason, to escape their own torment.

This would be true for those ending up in the Terrestial (those that already had the gospel) and Celestial Kingdom (those that never had the gospel). They repent (accept Christ) and move on to more light (then Spirit Prison). But we are talking about Telestial Kingdom. These are the ones that reject Christ. (no atonement, no repentance) Thus they have to pay for there own sins. This isn’t done in the spirit world/prison. These are the ones that are thrust down to hell. They are there until they have satisfied the demands of a Terresial Law. Or really until the end of the Millennium, when they come forth in the final Resurrection.

These are the ones spoke of by Jesus Christ in D&C 19.

Sons of Perdition take this one step farther. They know Christ and the saving power and still turn there back on it! These are the ones that well be in Outer Darkness forever.

Yes, sons of perdition will inherit a kingdom with no glory. Now, we do not know if it will be an eternal/forever punishment for them, or if it will be the nicest place they can/will accept (see Mormon 9:1-4). It is possible that even the telestial kingdom may be worse and more painful for them than to dwell in darkness!

The devil isn’t in the spirit world causing suffering, that would be Outer Darkness. So these well not come forth until after they have been trust down to hell (OD), and after everybody else has been resurrection, which is at the end of the millennium. Right?

That wasn’t what I was getting out. Past Sins are forgiven, but you aren’t forgiven of future sins. Repentance is a process of overcoming our weaknesses. As we fall, we repent (change) and make things right. The idea that I only need to repent once, and I’m saved isn’t LDS doctrine. Really we aren’t completely “saved” until we have overcome all our weaknesses. Full Salvation doesn’t come until after this life. What we are doing now is doing are best to overcome our weakness (through Christ). And chart a course that LEADS us to salvation.

Ram: It is a phrase. Buffetings of Satan does not necessarily mean that Satan will be there to harm an individual. As it is, scripture shows that Cain will rule over Satan in Outer Darkness, because he gained a body! The buffetings come from our own guilt for sin. And only complete repentance can cause an escape. Many will require eons in spirit prison hell to humble themselves sufficiently to give away all their sins. Since they are compelled to be humble, they will be rescued from both death and hell, but they will not have become Christ-like so as to be able to dwell in his presence.

[Shell72]

After looking at the flow chart ( thank you for posting that) I have some questions..

First of all - I have heard of being "sealed" in marriage that carries over to Heaven. Now according to what I have read here - there are different levels of heaven, based on how "good" (for lack of a better word) you are on earth.

Now, if someone were sealed in marriage - is that all thrown out the window if someone is "better" ( again, can't think of a better word) than the other? what happens in that case?

[Vanhin]

After looking at the flow chart ( thank you for posting that) I have some questions..

First of all - I have heard of being "sealed" in marriage that carries over to Heaven. Now according to what I have read here - there are different levels of heaven, based on how "good" (for lack of a better word) you are on earth.

Now, if someone were sealed in marriage - is that all thrown out the window if someone is "better" ( again, can't think of a better word) than the other? what happens in that case?

Hey there. I'll take a stab at this. If I have misunderstood your question, feel free to correct me.

As you know, there are three major degrees of glory in the kindgom of heaven. The Celestial kingdom is the highest. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is concerned with the highest state of happiness and glory in the Celestial kingdom. So, what Jesus teaches and the scriptures teach, is the law of the highest degree of glory in the Celestial kingdom. We call the highest state of happiness and glory exaltation (see Guide to the Scriptures: Exaltation). It is the kind of life that God lives, and those who are exalted will be in the presence of Heavenly Father and his Christ forever (John 17:20-26).

In order for a person to receive exaltation they must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, and receive and be faithful to all the covenants and ordinances of salvation. The ordinances of salvation are: baptism, confirmation (gift of the Holy Ghost), sacrament (the Lord's supper), priesthood (for males), the endowment, and sealing (including temple marriage). We call the combination of all the saving ordinances the New and Everlasting Covenant (see Guide to the Scriptures: New and Everlasting Covenant).

The endowment and sealing are performed in our sacred temples. Being sealed to one's spouse is the last saving ordinance to be performed in mortality. If we are true and faithful to the covenants we make with God, and endure to the end of our mortal probation, we will be exalted with our families (because we will be sealed to eachother) and live in the presence of God forever. We will continue his work, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind (moses 1:39), thus is the Father glorified.

Regards,

Vanhin

[rameumptom]

After looking at the flow chart ( thank you for posting that) I have some questions..

First of all - I have heard of being "sealed" in marriage that carries over to Heaven. Now according to what I have read here - there are different levels of heaven, based on how "good" (for lack of a better word) you are on earth.

Now, if someone were sealed in marriage - is that all thrown out the window if someone is "better" ( again, can't think of a better word) than the other? what happens in that case?

Families are forever, or at least can be. There are a few ways in which families work between these kingdoms/heavens. First, for those who make it to the highest (Celestial) heaven, they are forever a close-knit family that can continue having more children and expand God's creations by assisting Him in creating new worlds and populating them with our children.

Second, for those who go to lower kingdoms, they may be visited, taught, and loved by those from kingdoms above them. They, however, cannot go to the higher kingdoms. They can enter into loving relationships in the kingdom they currently are in, but this is limited, as they have not developed a Christ-like love required to be exalted, and so the intimacy of relationship is not as encompassing and powerful as it is in the Celestial kingdom.

[tubaloth]

First you ask this

Still, there is no definitive scriptural statement establishing it one way or the other.

So I give you a scripture that is pretty “definite” that you don’t get out of the telestial kingdom, (no progression from that kingdom) but that still isn’t good enough?

Ram: In the Spirit World is where sins are paid for.

Where does it say that?

Most presume that Spirit Prison and hell can be synonymous.

Most? Who is most?

Hell has two meanings in LDS Scripture

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76: 84-85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9: 10-12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6: 28; Moro. 8: 13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19: 4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire - a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2: 4; D&C 29: 38; D&C 88: 113). This kind of hell, which is after the resurrection and judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels, and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain.

So there is Hell in spirit prison (more as a place for wicked people then in suffering).

And Hell in Outer Darkness which we do know there is torment at.

As far as I can remember, torment doesn’t happen in the spirit world, it happens in Hell.

As far as I remember torment does happen in Outer Darkness, which is also hell.

The conclusion we then draw is that the hell with suffering has to be in the spirit prison? But not in outer darkness? Why is that?

We both agree there is a place (call it spirit prison 2, or a smaller version of Outer Darkness) there is a place that people sufferer for there own sins? Correct?

The reason I called this spirit prison 2 is because this so called Hell of Fire and torment isn’t the same type of spirit prison where people are being taught the gospel, and having a chance to accept it. (I don’t see that happening in the same place, or maybe spirit Prison changes to this newer torment version?)

So people are in spirit prison and then as D&C 76 says they are “trusted down to Hell” or As Alma says “cast out” I would have to assume this is in a some other type of state. (Either of mind or location).

Then we have problem 2.

One you quote a scripture where it says outer darkness and speaks of torment happening, but assume it is talking about Spirit Prison. Then I quote Bible Dictionary that supports that the Hell spoken of D&C 76 is really the Spirit Prison.

(Alma 40:13.)

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

That sounds a lot more like Outer Darkness as we really believe it to be, then any form of Spirit prison?

I guess more, what is the difference from this “version” of spirit prison, and outer darkness? To me the are the same in what they are doing, both feel the torment of Satan, both are with out Light of Christ/Spirit? Both are “captive” by the will of the devil. It seems far more like outer darkness then Spirit Prison.

Also looking up stuff about Hell. It says this.

All those who enter the telestial kingdom, which will be a place, as each of these kingdoms will be, will be punished for their sins. Satan for a time will have dominion over them until they have paid the price of their sinning, before they can enter into that telestial kingdom.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 2: 210.)

If this place is really this extreme, it just seems like it is closer to what we know of as Outer Darkness, then some spirit prison. Unless Satan is going to be in spirit prison.

Now, whether outer darkness and spirit prison hell are the same, we do not know.

Well, that is probably the key question, but more, is the outer darkness spoke of by Alma, the same Outer Darkness for those that deny the Holy Ghost.

Both have suffering.

Both feel the torment of Satan (can one feel the torment more then the other?)

Both are in a place called “outer darkness”.

For some it is only temporary, some it lasts forever. If this is really two places, God should have just “created” one place for both, not two! They suffer the same torment do they not? Just one is a lot longer then the other?

My point is, the suffering happens in outer darkness, where Satan torments them. This is a different place then spirit prison.

When tied to D&C 138, D&C 19, and Alma's conversion story in 36, it seems to me that one suffers in spirit prison UNTIL he turns all of his sins over to Christ and fully and completely repents.

So they suffer for what? To motivate them to repent? The point of the suffering is because they choose not to repent. That’s what Section 19 is talking about, either we have to suffer or Christ suffers. Its not I well sufferer so much, then decided to change? Those going to the Telestial Kingdom are those suffering for there own sins!

What you are talking about is those suffering because they are in a lost state. They want to change and don’t know how to get out! They see what would happen if they stayed in this state (and they would have to suffer), but they choose to repent, change, accept Christ and the Atonement so they don’t suffer (that’s the point of having the atonement, I don’t have to suffer!)

And I’m not really sure what you were getting about the Judgment?

[tubaloth]

After looking at the flow chart ( thank you for posting that) I have some questions..

First of all - I have heard of being "sealed" in marriage that carries over to Heaven. Now according to what I have read here - there are different levels of heaven, based on how "good" (for lack of a better word) you are on earth.

Now, if someone were sealed in marriage - is that all thrown out the window if someone is "better" ( again, can't think of a better word) than the other? what happens in that case?

You probably well want to start your own page for this descussion. I'm sure the two answers you got were fine. But your answers, and any other questions would get lost in this post. Just so you know.

[rameumptom]

Let me share what is found in the Encyclopedia Of Mormonism, which is more up to date and in depth than the Bible Dictionary.

Spirit Prison

1406In Latter-day Saint doctrine the "spirit prison" is both a condition and a place within the postearthly spirit world. One "imprisons" himself or herself through unbelief or through willful disobedience of God. In such circumstances, one's opportunities in the afterlife will be limited. Those who willfully rebel against the light and truth of the gospel and do not repent remain in this condition of imprisonment and suffer spiritual death, which is a condition of hell ("Alma 12:16-18; D&C 76:36-37). Furthermore, since a fulness of joy is not possible without the resurrected body, the waiting in the spirit world for the resurrection is a type of imprisonment ("D&C 45:17;"D&C 93:33-34;"D&C 138:16, 17, 50). However, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ all have a promise of resurrection, and thus of eventual release from this type of spirit prison, although the unrepentant will still be imprisoned by their unbelief (see Damnation).

1406Another more far-reaching definition of "spirit prison" is hell. In this sense, spirit prison is a temporary abode in the spirit world of those who either were untaught and unrighteous, or were disobedient to the gospel while in mortal life (cf. "alma 40:11-14; "D&C D&C 138:32).

1406As part of his redemptive mission, Jesus Christ visited the spirit world during the interlude between his own death and resurrection, and "from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness"-in other words, to the spirits in prison ("D&C 138:30; cf. "1 1 Pet. 3:18-20;"1 pet. 4:6). Thus, the gulf between paradise and hell that is spoken of in Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) was bridged by the Savior's ministry in the spirit world. This bridging allows interaction among the righteous and wicked spirits to the extent that the faithful present the gospel to "those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" (D&C 138:32). Latter-day Saints believe that preaching the gospel in the spirit world continues today and will continue until every soul who wishes to do so and repents properly will be released from such imprisonment.

1406Repentance of imprisoned spirits opens the doors of the prison, enabling them to loose themselves from the spiritual darkness of unbelief, ignorance, and sin. As they accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and cast off their sins, the repentant are able to break the chains of hell and dwell with the righteous in paradise.

[see also Salvation of the Dead.]

1406Bibliography

1406Pratt, Orson. "Deity; The Holy Priesthood." In Masterful Discourses and Writings of Orson Pratt, N. B. Lundwall, comp., pp. 260-68. Salt Lake City, 1946.

ROBERT J. PARSONS

Hell

585The term "hell" as used in the King James Version of the Bible is the English translation of four words in the original biblical languages: Hebrew sheol and Greek hades, geenna (Heb. gehenna), and a noun implied in the verb tartar. These terms generally signify the abode of all the dead, whether righteous or disobedient, although geenna and tartaróo are associated with a place of punishment. The derivation and literal meaning of sheol are unknown, but words in Hebrew derived from it bear the idea of "hollowness."

585Latter-day scriptures describe at least three senses of hell: (1) that condition of misery which may attend a person in mortality due to disobedience to divine law; (2) the miserable, but temporary, state of disobedient spirits in the spirit world awaiting the resurrection; (3) the permanent habitation of the sons of perdition, who suffer the second spiritual death and remain in hell even after the resurrection.

585Persons experiencing the first type of hell can be rescued from suffering through repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Savior suffered so that he could deliver everyone from hell (Alma 7:11-13;"alma 33:23). Those who do not repent, however, may experience the pains of hell in this life as well as in the next (D&C 76:104; "1 ne. 16:2; Alma 40:14). The Prophet Joseph Smith described the true nature of hell: "A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357). Thus, hell is both a place, a part of the world of spirits where suffering and sorrow occur, and a state of mind associated with remorseful realization of one's own sins (Mosiah 2:38; Alma 36:12-16).

585A second type, a temporary hell of the postmortal spirit world, is also spoken of as a spirit prison. Here, in preparation for the Resurrection, unrepentant spirits are cleansed through suffering that would have been obviated by the Atonement of Christ had they repented during mortality (D&C 19:15-20; Alma 40:13-14). At the last resurrection this hell will give up its captive spirits. Many of these spirits will enter into the Telestial Kingdom in their resurrected state (2 Ne. 9:10-12; D&C 76:84-89, 106; Rev. 20:13). References to an everlasting hell for these spirits are interpreted in light of the Doctrine and Covenants, which defines Endless and Eternal as referring not to the length of punishment, but rather referring to God's punishment because he is "endless" and "eternal" (19:4-13). Individual spirits will be cleansed, will cease to experience the fiery torment of mind, and will be resurrected with their physical bodies.

586The Savior's reference to the "gates of hell" (Hades, or the spirit world; Matt. 16:18) indicates, among other things, that God's priesthood power will penetrate hell and redeem the repentant spirits there. Many have been, and many more will yet be, delivered from hell through hearing, repenting, and obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ in the spirit world after the death of the body. LDS doctrine emphasizes that after his mortal death Jesus Christ went to the spirit world and organized the teaching of the gospel there ("D&C 138:1; cf. Luke 23:43; 1 Pet. 3:18-20). The Athanasian Creed and some forms of the "Apostles"' Creed state that Christ "descended into hell." LDS teaching is that Jesus entered the spirit world to extend his redemptive mission to those in hell, upon conditions of their repentance (see Salvation of the Dead).

586A third meaning of "hell" (second spiritual death) refers to the realm of the devil and his angels, including those known as sons of perdition (2 Pet. 2:4; D&C 29:38; 88:113; Rev. 20:14). It is a place for those who cannot be cleansed by the Atonement because they committed the unforgivable and unpardonable sin (1 Ne. 15:35; D&C 76:30-49). Only this hell continues to operate after the Resurrection and Judgment.

586Bibliography

586"Descent of Christ into Hell." In Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, p. 395. New York, 1983.

Nibley, Hugh W. "Christ Among the Ruins." Ensign 13 (July 1983):14-19.

M. CATHERINE THOMAS

Buffetings of Satan

236An individual who receives extensive spiritual knowledge, enters into sacred covenants, and then turns away from those promises to the Lord may be left to the buffetings of Satan until complete repentance has occurred. This sin differs in nature and category from one committed in ignorance. Paul alluded to such in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, but a clearer understanding of the doctrine is found in latter-day revelation (see Ds 2:96-98).

236To the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed the situation of some who had broken the covenants by which they had entered the United Order. That revelation reads, "The soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption" ("D&C 82:20-21; cf. 78:12; 104:9-10). The same principle applies to persons whose temple marriage is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, and who later transgress and break their covenants. The revelation states that they "shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God" ("D&C 132:26).

236Elder Bruce R. McConkie, a latter-day apostle, explained that to be "turned over to the buffetings of Satan is to be given into [satan's] hands; it is to be turned over to him with all the protective power of the priesthood, of righteousness, and of godliness removed, so that Lucifer is free to torment, persecute, and afflict such a person without let or hindrance. When the bars are down, the cuffs and curses of Satan, both in this world and in the world to come, bring indescribable anguish typified by burning fire and brimstone. The damned in hell so suffer" (MD, "Buffetings of Satan"; see also McConkie, Vol. 2, p. 335).

236The term "buffetings of Satan" used in latter-day revelation is associated with punishment for the violation of covenants and is distinct from the "buffet" or "buffeted" used occasionally in the New Testament, which refers to the suffering, maltreatment, and persecution to which the Savior, Paul, and other church members were often subjected by people (Matt. 26:67; 1 Cor. 4:11; 2 Cor. 12:7).

[see also Damnation; Hell.]

236Bibliography

236McConkie, Bruce R. Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Salt Lake City, 1965-1973.

DENNIS D. FLAKE

So, I agree there are two places in spirit prison, a place where the wicked await the resurrection and are taught the gospel, and a place where they pay for their own sins until they repent of them. For those who refuse to repent, they will be suffering a long time.

[Guest User-Removed]

I believe that once saved, Jesus covers all sin. He covers ALL past and future sins of a true believer. Hebrews 9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

So, in other words...are you saying that Mother Teresa and Charles Manson might be neighbors in Heaven...based on your view of Grace???

BTW...Curiosity here....does Grace extend to members of the Boston Celtics team????

[NateHowe]

Hi everyone. Do murderers get a chance to repent of their sins and go to one of the heavenly kingdoms when in the Spirit World or are they automatically condemned to Outer Darkness? Also, what if the murderer repents during this life?

The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior and our Judge. He knows the intents of our hearts and will judge each person according to his or her circumstances and intents. Any effort to judge those things only Christ can decide is false.

However, He has given us some of the criteria by which He will judge in the scriptures.

[Dr T]

So, in other words...are you saying that Mother Teresa and Charles Manson might be neighbors in Heaven...based on your view of Grace???

BTW...Curiosity here....does Grace extend to members of the Boston Celtics team????

I haven't been reading this thread-glad I checked. I don't know if they will be neighbors but the fact that they are both there because of Jesus just makes me praise him for his Grace! It is Jesus' work that gets us there no matter what we did in the past. None of us deserve to be there to begin with. Now, boston...even them...even them We'll see my boys step up tonight! GO LAKERS!

[rameumptom]

In LDS belief, we all deserve to be in heaven. Jesus' atonement opens the door for all to receive exaltation in the highest kingdom. The issue is whether we wish to receive it all or not. The Book of Mormon teaches us that all will be resurrected and then all stand in the presence of God. Only then will some choose a lesser glory or kingdom, because they cannot stand to be in His presence (see Alma 11-12, Mormon 9).

Our works don't matter in saving us from death and hell. Christ's atonement pays for that for all who do not become complete rebels, as was Cain. Even Mother Theresa and Charles Manson will be saved. ;-)

But, all the scriptures tell us that after we are redeemed from death and hell, we will be judged according to our works.

Revelation 20 teaches:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

IOW, there are two parts of the judgment. First, to see if we are in the Book of Life. Almost all people will be in this book, except for the sons of perdition, who will be cast into eternal hell and outer darkness. Those in the Book of Life will be delivered, then will be judged according to their works AGAIN.

All others are judged by their works in the other books. IOW, we are judged according to works in the flesh. As 1 Peter 4 tells us, "6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Jesus taught, "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). And Paul told of the man who went to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).

Clearly, Mother Theresa and Charles Manson will both be saved. But that doesn't mean they will be sitting next to each other in the same heaven. These and other scriptures, as well as many other ancient writings teach of multiple levels of heaven. And as John wrote, once saved from death and hell, we will still be judged out of the books for our works of faithfulness.

Edited June 10, 2008 by rameumptom

[Islander]

There is no forgiveness for murder. See D&C 42:18, 25, 79. The mercies of God do not stop but His moral law must be obeyed. Opposition to His law is rebellion and that is the shortest road to damnation.

[rameumptom]

There is no forgiveness for murder. See D&C 42:18, 25, 79. The mercies of God do not stop but His moral law must be obeyed. Opposition to His law is rebellion and that is the shortest road to damnation.

Let's look closely at these verses (and a few others for clarification) to see if they say what you think it states:

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out.

25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;

26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.

79 And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.

Obviously, you threw in verse 25 to show a difference between adultery and murder. There is, but not as you think, which is why I included a couple other verses.

Adultery shows that there is forgiveness by the Church in this world, and if they do it a second time, the Church will not forgive the person, but cast them out (excommunicate).

Sins of the membership require the forgiveness of both God and the Church. This does not discuss God's forgiveness, but the Church's forgiveness. Murderers are not forgiven by the Church, and whether a member or not, cannot be baptized or rebaptized. This supposedly includes later in temple baptisms for the dead, which is the world to come.

Now, this is instruction given to us today, but it hasn't always applied. The Lamanites were murderers, and if the Nephites had gone by our modern instructions, could not have baptized Lamoni, his father, or any of those who buried their weapons of war. Yet, God DID forgive them and gave them a second chance. Nephi slew Laban in cold blood. Moses and Israel wiped out entire cities, including innocent women and children.

And the clincher, God forgave David.

31 And he (Ahijah the prophet) said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces; for thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee;

1 kgs. 11:32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel)

1 kgs. 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and my statutes, and my judgments, and his heart is become as David his father; and he repenteth not as did David his father, that I may forgive him.

Daniel Ludlow, in Your Companion to the Old Testament, pg 229, explains:

11:6-8 Concerning the downfall of Solomon and the sins of David, Ellis Rasmussen has observed:

pg229 - 230The fall of Solomon resulted from his system of marrying royal wives from all the countries round about—which policy may well have been for economic and political reasons as well for his "love" of "strange women"! Since he not only tolerated their religions but caused shrines and sacrificial high places to be built for them and "went after" their gods and goddesses himself, it would seem he was seeking power from every imaginable source. . . . Notice that Solomon's violation of the marriage statute (v. 2) led to his breaking the first and second of the Ten Commandments; David's breach of the tenth led to his breaking of the seventh and then the sixth commandments. (IOT 1:202-3.)

11:33, 38-39 The Joseph Smith Translation of these verses indicates:

1. Solomon sinned greatly as did David, but Solomon was not repentant and so the Lord could not forgive him.

2. David was blessed by the Lord when he was obedient to the Lord's commandments.

3. Because of the sins of Solomon, the right of reigning over ten of the twelve tribes was taken from him (and his descendants).

4. Because of the sins of David, the descendants of David would be afflicted, "but not for ever."

Obviously, murder CAN be forgiven in this life, if God so chooses to do so and/or commands it!

Having said that, is it easy to be forgiven of murder? Definitely not, and only God can decide whom he will forgive, and which kingdom of heaven such a person will receive.