Early Christians & God The Father

[Jason]

Here are a few quotes that I found to be quite fascinating: (All quotes come from the Ante Nicene Fathers)

"The secret of the Most High God, who created all things, cannot be attained by our own ability and perceptions. If human thought could reach to the counsels and arrangements of that eternal majesty, there would be no difference between God and man." (Lactantius, 304 AD. 7:9)

"When we speak of Him we use a masculine word. However, let no thoughtless person raise the false accusation against us as though we believed the God whom we worship to be a man. Let him understand that it is not gender that is expressed, but rather His name, its meaning according to custom, and the way which we customarily use words. For the Deity is not male. However, His name is of the masculine gender. In contrast, you Romans cannot say the same thing about your ceremonies. For in your prayers you are accustomed to say 'whether you are god or goddess,' ...showing that you attribute gender to the gods." (Arnobius, 305 AD, 6:466)

This last quote I find very interesting. When God created man in "his" image, he created them male and female. Further, when God said that they were one "ehad" flesh, he meant that mankind cannot separate that which cannot be separated. You can no more divide God, than you can a marriage. This is why a Roman Catholic cannot remarry if divorced. It is not possible. Not even God himself can authorize a divorce. Peter cannot do it. His successors cannot do it.

How's that for your thought for the day?

A few more quotes for your reading pleasure:

"He cannot be seen - He is too bright for vision. He cannot be comprehended, for He is too pure for our discernment. He cannot be estimated, for He is too great for our perception. And, therefore, we are only worthily estimating Him when we say that He is inconceivable....He is one, and He in His entirety is everywhere diffused." (Cyprian, 250 AD. 5:467)

"You are illimitable, unbegotten, immortal, enduring forever, God Yourself alone! No bodily shape can represent you, nor any outline delineate you. Your virtues are inexpressible, and your greatness is indefinable. You are unrestricted as to locality, movement, and condition. In short, concerning you, nothing can be clearly expressed by the meaning of man's words." (Arnobius, 305 AD. 6:421)

"He conceals Himself in His power from all His works. For it is not permitted for any being who is subject to change to see Him who changes not." (Melito, 170 AD. 8:755)

This one is my favorite:

"By the unanimous judgment of all, and by the common admission of the human race, the Omnipotent God is regarded as having never been born. He has never been brought forth to new light. He has never begun to exist at any time or century. For He Himself is the source of all things, the Father of ages and of seasons. For those things do not exist of themselves. Rather, from His everlasting perpetuity, the move on in an unbroken and ever endless flow." (Arnobius, 305 AD. 6:421-422)

[Guest curvette]

I'm somewhat ignorant of how the scriptures came to be used in their modern form. Were the early Christians aware of the Old Testament/Torah verses that explicitly state that Moses spoke to God "Face to face?" or do they consider that metaphorical?

[Jason]

Curvy,

Good question. Here's what I know:

The early Christians were Jews. They used the Torah/Old Testament as their scriptures. The Gospels and Letters of the New Testament had yet to be written. So they obviously knew the scripture verses.

Now, as far as God speaking to Moses "face to face" I cannot find such a passage in the Old Testament. This is the closest thing I can find:

From Exodus 3:

2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Every other passage (specifically Exodus 19) says that Moses only heard the voice of God.

Now, in the LDS book: The Pearl of Great Price, there is in the "book of moses" such a verse that says that God spoke to Moses 'face to face', but that's the only place I can find this. As you probably recall, the "book of moses" is actually Joseph Smiths "translation" of the Bible. Or in other words, Joseph Smith's INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

[Ray]

Heh, looks like more evidence in support of the apostasy to me.

Most of what you quoted in your first post is not true. I'm not saying that those things were not said by those people, I'm saying that most of what they said is not scripture, because they are merely the words of man.

[Jason]

Ray,

Did you even give thought to those passages before you dismissed them?

How do you know that they're not the right ones, and you're in error? It never ceases to amaze me that Mormons will talk so highly of their leaders and Joseph Smith; yet at the same time believe that Christ, the Son of God, was inept at founding His Church.

Very sad....

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ Jul 21 2004, 11:58 AM

Ray,

Did you even give thought to those passages before you dismissed them?

Yes, I did.

How do you know that they're not the right ones, and you're in error?

I know in the same way that I know all other things that I know.

It never ceases to amaze me that Mormons will talk so highly of their leaders and Joseph Smith; yet at the same time believe that Christ, the Son of God, was inept at founding His Church.

I never said that Jesus was inept at founding His Church. I believe He founded His Church during His personal ministry while knowing that His Church would fall into apostasy, similar to how He chose His apostles knowing that one of them would betray Him. The apostle Paul also knew that the Church was going to fall into apostasy, and He also saw the beginnings of it. Yet the apostles also knew, as did our Lord, that the Church would one day be restored upon the Earth never again to be removed.

Very sad.... 

Yes, it’s very sad that at one time you were taught the gospel from the restored Church of Christ and have now come to the point where you can believe apostate doctrine. Very sad indeed.

[Ray]

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. – Genesis 32:29-30

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. – Exodus 33:11

And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. – Numbers 14:14

AND Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, - Deuteronomy 5:1-4

[Jason]

QUOTE

How do you know that they're not the right ones, and you're in error?

"I know in the same way that I know all other things that I know."

You mean the same way that you know all other religious things,right?

QUOTE

It never ceases to amaze me that Mormons will talk so highly of their leaders and Joseph Smith; yet at the same time believe that Christ, the Son of God, was inept at founding His Church.

"I never said that Jesus was inept at founding His Church."

Sorry, you're right. That was Joseph Smith who said that: "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409).

"I believe He founded His Church during His personal ministry while knowing that His Church would fall into apostasy, similar to how He chose His apostles knowing that one of them would betray Him. The apostle Paul also knew that the Church was going to fall into apostasy, and He also saw the beginnings of it."

You may (and do) believe what you want. However the passages of the NT that describe Apostasy are describing a local apostasy. Not a general apostasy. That's the difference, Ray.

"Yet the apostles also knew, as did our Lord, that the Church would one day be restored upon the Earth never again to be removed."

Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus and the 12.

"Yes, it’s very sad that at one time you were taught the gospel from the restored Church of Christ and have now come to the point where you can believe apostate doctrine. Very sad indeed."

My doctrine is Biblical. Your beliefs are a mix of Biblical teachings with the philosophy of Joseph Smith.

Your church restored nothing, Ray.

Never did Christ teach that blacks couldn't hold the Priesthood.

Never did Christ teach that Polygamy was required to go to heaven.

Never did Christ teach that you needed to wear "priesthood" garments.

Never did Christ teach that you needed an "endowment".

The Garden of Eden wasn't in Missouri ,Ray.

Christ never attempted to translate a couple of farmer's phony "plates". (eg Kinderhook)

The LDS temple ceremony never existed prior to the 19th century.

And the Masonic ritual that Joseph Smith copied didn't exist prior to the 17th century.

Never was there a "first presidency".

Never were 12 year old boys ordained to be Deacons.

There is only one High Priest in the universe: That would be Christ, Ray.

Kinda hard to believe the claims of Mormonism.

[Jason]

Genesis 32:

24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Putting things into context always helps. Seems kinda funny that an omniscient "God" would have to ask what his name was.

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. – Exodus 33:11

Nothing there that says that Moses SAW God.

Numbers 14

10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)

14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

Again, put into context, we see that it was the Glory of the Lord that was seen, not God Himself. Using the previous example in Exodus 33, you can see that it is figure of speech, not literal.

AND Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, - Deuteronomy 5:1-4

As we've seen in the previous verses, God spoke to the people just like one man would speak to another. It's clearly a figure of speech.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 20 2004, 11:10 PM

"By the unanimous judgment of all, and by the common admission of the human race, the Omnipotent God is regarded as having never been born.  He has never been brought forth to new light.  He has never begun to exist at any time or century.  For He Himself is the source of all things, the Father of ages and of seasons.  For those things do not exist of themselves.  Rather, from His everlasting perpetuity, the move on in an unbroken and ever endless flow."  (Arnobius, 305 AD. 6:421-422)

And almost 1700 years later, there is still agreement:

Before any and all creation, God was completely self-sufficient and all-inclusive. All that existed was God. There was nothing that was not God.4 Without beginning, the Supreme Being is infinite in each of his many characteristics. Yet rather than contain all opposites, God eternally chooses to be himself, and his choosing is forever expressive of his nature. God’s attributes are not contradictory but rather entirely consistent with one another, for God is simple and God is one.

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/...anworldview.htm

M.

[Jason]

That article looks really good. I look forward to reading it tonight.

[srm]

My doctrine is Biblical. Your beliefs are a mix of Biblical teachings with the philosophy of Joseph Smith.

No, Jason, your beliefs are based on your (and the Church Father's) interpretation of the Bible.

Your church restored nothing, Ray.

Never did Christ teach that blacks couldn't hold the Priesthood.

Never did Christ teach that Polygamy was required to go to heaven.

Never did Christ teach that you needed to wear "priesthood" garments.

Never did Christ teach that you needed an "endowment".

The Garden of Eden wasn't in Missouri ,Ray.

Christ never attempted to translate a couple of farmer's phony "plates". (eg Kinderhook)

The LDS temple ceremony never existed prior to the 19th century.

And the Masonic ritual that Joseph Smith copied didn't exist prior to the 17th century.

Never was there a "first presidency".

Never were 12 year old boys ordained to be Deacons.

There is only one High Priest in the universe: That would be Christ, Ray.

Kinda hard to believe the claims of Mormonism.

Your statments here are specious. The real issue is...is the LDS Church the true Church of Jesus Christ. because if it is than Yes, Jesus did teach most of the things you mentioned above. You list is pitting Jesus against Joseph, this is a false dilemma.

[srm]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 21 2004, 01:38 PM

QUOTE

How do you know that they're not the right ones, and you're in error?

"I know in the same way that I know all other things that I know."

You mean the same way that you know all other religious things,right?

QUOTE

It never ceases to amaze me that Mormons will talk so highly of their leaders and Joseph Smith; yet at the same time believe that Christ, the Son of God, was inept at founding His Church.

"I never said that Jesus was inept at founding His Church."

Sorry, you're right. That was Joseph Smith who said that.

"I believe He founded His Church during His personal ministry while knowing that His Church would fall into apostasy, similar to how He chose His apostles knowing that one of them would betray Him. The apostle Paul also knew that the Church was going to fall into apostasy, and He also saw the beginnings of it."

You may (and do) believe what you want. However the passages of the NT that describe Apostasy are describing a local apostasy. Not a general apostasy. That's the difference, Ray.

"Yet the apostles also knew, as did our Lord, that the Church would one day be restored upon the Earth never again to be removed."

Apparently someone forgot to tell Jesus and the 12.

"Yes, it’s very sad that at one time you were taught the gospel from the restored Church of Christ and have now come to the point where you can believe apostate doctrine. Very sad indeed."

My doctrine is Biblical. Your beliefs are a mix of Biblical teachings with the philosophy of Joseph Smith.

Your church restored nothing, Ray.

Never did Christ teach that blacks couldn't hold the Priesthood.

Never did Christ teach that Polygamy was required to go to heaven.

Never did Christ teach that you needed to wear "priesthood" garments.

Never did Christ teach that you needed an "endowment".

The Garden of Eden wasn't in Missouri ,Ray.

Christ never attempted to translate a couple of farmer's phony "plates". (eg Kinderhook)

The LDS temple ceremony never existed prior to the 19th century.

And the Masonic ritual that Joseph Smith copied didn't exist prior to the 17th century.

Never was there a "first presidency".

Never were 12 year old boys ordained to be Deacons.

There is only one High Priest in the universe: That would be Christ, Ray.

Kinda hard to believe the claims of Mormonism.

You may (and do) believe what you want. However the passages of the NT that describe Apostasy are describing a local apostasy. Not a general apostasy. That's the difference, Ray.

We have been all through this before. You can not establish that it was a local apostacy. It is just your opinion.

[Jason]

"No, Jason, your beliefs are based on your (and the Church Father's) interpretation of the Bible."

Correct. The Church Fathers learned their doctrine from the Apostles. That's a historical fact. Im glad you realize that.

"Your statments here are specious."

Really? In what way? While im no debater, nor theologian, I am a historian. Historically speaking, since there is zero evidence that the Christian Church practiced or taught what I listed, I'd say that you've got a real problem on your hands.

"The real issue is...is the LDS Church the true Church of Jesus Christ. because if it is than Yes, Jesus did teach most of the things you mentioned above. You list is pitting Jesus against Joseph, this is a false dilemma. "

This is hardly a false dilemma. Your church has yet to prove that the Catholic Church became apostate. The only way Mormons can prove that the Catholic Church became apostate is to prove that my list of items were practiced or taught by Christ and his Apostles. Since you cannot prove it, you're in a pickle.

Furthermore, the Temple Ceremony has it's origins in the 17th century Freemasonic Lodges. That's a historical fact. That can be proved.

"We have been all through this before. You can not establish that it was a local apostacy. It is just your opinion. "

Actually I can. I'll take this up another time.

[srm]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 22 2004, 10:01 AM

"No, Jason, your beliefs are based on your (and the Church Father's) interpretation of the Bible."

Correct. The Church Fathers learned their doctrine from the Apostles. That's a historical fact. Im glad you realize that.

"Your statments here are specious."

Really? In what way? While im no debater, nor theologian, I am a historian. Historically speaking, since there is zero evidence that the Christian Church practiced or taught what I listed, I'd say that you've got a real problem on your hands.

"The real issue is...is the LDS Church the true Church of Jesus Christ. because if it is than Yes, Jesus did teach most of the things you mentioned above. You list is pitting Jesus against Joseph, this is a false dilemma. "

This is hardly a false dilemma. Your church has yet to prove that the Catholic Church became apostate. The only way Mormons can prove that the Catholic Church became apostate is to prove that my list of items were practiced or taught by Christ and his Apostles. Since you cannot prove it, you're in a pickle.

Furthermore, the Temple Ceremony has it's origins in the 17th century Freemasonic Lodges. That's a historical fact. That can be proved.

"We have been all through this before. You can not establish that it was a local apostacy. It is just your opinion. "

Actually I can. I'll take this up another time.

Which early Church Fathers were taught by which Apostles?

[Jason]

St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Pope Linus, and St. Pope Clement come immediately to mind.

[Maureen]

I've never really studied really early Church history but this small essay I found to be quite interesting:

http://www.roshpinah.org/articles/Judaism_...mple_%20era.htm

It is titled:

Judaism and the Post-Temple Era

A brief overview of a critical era in Messianic Jewish history

By Michael Weygant

an excerpt:

By the time Ignatius5 became bishop in Antioch in 69 C.E., a rightist theology involving a Messianic belief system still deeply impregnated with the old leaven of Judaism had already been deemed undesirable by some. It should be noted at this juncture that Ignatius had assumed the Antioch bishopric upon the death of Euodius his predecessor. In turn Euodius had been the first to hold such a venerated and influential spiritual office after Shimon bar-Yonah (the apostle Peter) himself.

M.

[Jason]

In answer to the statement made by "srm" that: "You can not establish that it was a local apostacy [as opposed to a General Apostasy]. It is just your opinion," I would like to briefly analyze the main passages from the New Testament that are used by both the LDS church, and some Protestant fundamentalist churches in an attempt to prove that the Catholic Church has become completely apostate, and abandoned the faith once delivered to the saints. I will show that the apostasy described in the New Testament was localized, or describing individuals, and that there was no 'general apostasy' of Christ's Church. To begin, I did a Google search under apostasy + catholic +church, and found a website that used these passages to prove the apostasy theory. So, let's begin:

First, let's take a look at the Gospel of St. Matthew, the 24th chapter:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ... And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ... For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4,11,24).

With only a casual glance, these verses seem to indicate that an apostasy is about to deceive many in the Church. But when we look at these statements in context, we quickly realize that this is not the case. Beginning in verse 2, we realize that Christ is talking about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Then in verse 3, his disciples begin to ask questions: "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, [#1] when shall these things be? and [#2]what shall be the sign of thy coming, and [#3] of the end of the world?" Notice carefully that it is the "sign" of his coming, not his actual coming. Christ tells his disciples in verses 4 and 5 that some will come to deceive them, even pretending to be Christ. Then in verses 6 through 8 Christ tells them of the impending wars and natural disasters that are soon to come. Verses 9 and 10 discuss the future martyrdom of the Christians of the early church. Verse 11 again warns of false prophets. Verse 12 discusses how many will cease loving due to iniquity. Verse 13 Christ encourages his disciples to endure their trials. Verse 14 states: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Answering the last part of the original question, when will the "end of the world" come. Verses 15 through 22 remind us of the great suffering that the people will go through. Verses 23 through 27 is another warning of false Messiahs to come. Verse 28 seems to indicate that where the majority of the disciples are, there is where you will find the Catholic Church. Verses 29 through 33 describes his coming in the clouds of heaven. Then Christ qualifies the entire sermon with this statement in verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Now obviously Christ's second coming did not occur in the first or second century AD. Therefore, the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem in 70AD, along with the fulfillment of the other items described in this prophecy of Christ, demonstrate that this 'fulfillment' dealt with everything but Christ's actual return. In other words, all of these events were fulfilled before those disciples had passed away! The Church couldn't have gone wholly apostate if the Apostles themselves were still alive. Leading us to conclude, without taking anything else into consideration, that this prophecy has nothing to do with the Church, nor any supposed future apostasy of the Church.

Next let's turn to the book of Acts:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29,30).

Only reading these two verses by themselves doesn't give us the whole picture. Let's look at it in context:

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.

37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,

38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.

These verses were directed specifically to the Elders at Ephesus. This is not a warning to the entire Church, only to the Church at Ephesus. While it is a stern warning of trouble to come, nowhere does it even say that all the disciples at Ephesus would be deceived. To apply this to the 'general apostasy" theory is unfounded.

Now let's turn to 2 Thessalonians:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Let's see it in context, beginning with the first chapter:

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[2 Thessalonians 2]

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[2 Thessalonians 3]

1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

To attempt to draw a "general apostasy" from this passage, is to excise it from it's context, apply the epistle to the entire church, rather than to the Thessalonian Church specificially, and ignore the remaining epistle. First, we must realize that the "falling away" will occur similtaniously with the revealing of the "man of sin". This Anti-Christ has not been revealed to anyone. That alone should easily demonstrate that the "falling away" has yet to occur. Then, notice carefully verse 3 and 4 in chapter 3: "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you." Here we have the promise from the Apostle Paul that the Lord will protect the Thessalonian Church, and that they WILL do all that the Apostles have commanded.

Now let's turn to 1st Timothy:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth" (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

Let's look at the context beginning in chapter 3:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[1 Timothy 4]

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

The key words here are that "some shall depart from the faith". Not everyone, only a few. Furthermore, in chapter 3, we see that the Catholic Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth". This passage again testifies to personal apostasy, not the "general apostasy" theory proposed by some. What's interesting is that there is a church that has departed from the faith, commanding to abstain from meats "out of season". Can you guess which one it is? (I'll give you a hint: D&C 91:12-13.)

On to 2nd Timothy:

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13).

Let's see it in context:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Notice that in this exhortation, Paul tells Timothy that in the "last days" perilous times shall come. Obviously, this presupposes that the Catholic Church will still exist in the last days, teaching the doctrine that Paul preached anciently. Nothing in this section can be construed to mean that there would be a "general apostasy" of the Catholic Church.

In fact, in a previous chapter, 2nd Timothy chapter 2 we read:

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Since the "foundation of God standeth sure," upon what is that foundation? God's "great house"! And what is the House of God? It is the Catholic Church! That is what Paul said earlier in 1 Timothy 3:15! "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." How can any honest woman or man deny the truths of the great missionary Apostle?

Moving on to 2nd Peter:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter. 2:1-3).

Notice that "many" shall follow their corrupt ways, but not ALL. Also, having "false teachers" among the faithful presupposes their being true teachers. If "the way of truth shall be evil spoken of," then the way of truth must have been preserved from the time of the Apostles. Today, the Roman Catholic Church is evil spoken of by most protestant fundamentalists. All protestants at one time have condemned the Lord's Church, though, praise be to God, many are slowly seeing the light and returning to the true fold.

Next let's look at Jude:

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3-4).

The "faith...once delivered unto the saints" is that faith taught since the infancy of the Church. We have records of those teachings, preserved in the epistles of the Apostles and their immediate successors. It is through these records that we can demonstrate those teachings believed 'by everyone, everywhere' as opposed to some that are recent innovations.

Lastly I want to discus my favorite "anti-Catholic" passage. It is found in the book of Revelations:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Revelation 17:1-6).

It is no secret that the City of Rome was called "Babylon" by the Apostle Peter. Further, it is no secret that Rome is built upon seven mountains. Nevertheless, when the Apostle wrote this Revelation, he was speaking of the Roman Empire, not the Lord's Church. The woman who was "drunken with the blood of the saints" is prophetically describing the future carnage that Roman Caesars would inflict upon humble Christians in the Arenas of the Empire. In time, the Spirit of God helped the Bishops understand that the Bishop of Rome was the "first among equals". Rome, consequently, became the "headquarters" of the Church. Remember, though, that at the time of this vision of St. John, the "headquarters" was still in Jerusalem. Though slow in development, the See of Rome (short for Diocese) was eventually recognized by all Christians as the head of the Church. Subsequently, the Bishop of Rome was defered to in matters of faith and morals.

Hopefully, I have shown that the instances of apostasy refered to in the New Testament were local and individual. There is no evidence to support a "general apostasy" theory. Those who espouse such a theory should ponder their actions, lest they be found fighting against the Church of Christ.

[Nina]

Ex-M J In regards to the temple ceremony being a rip off of the masonic temple ceremony you might want to look into 15th century italian taspestries ... I saw a tapestry while there that depicted a portion of the temple ceremony in detail. I am sorry I cannot give you more to go on accept that it exists in a church in the northern part of Italy (near Padova if I recall correctly).

Maybe we should question the origins of the masonic temple ceremony ...

[srm]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 22 2004, 12:38 PM

St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Pope Linus, and St. Pope Clement come immediately to mind.

OK, great. Now, please show us where, when and by which Apostles they were taught. Oh, and one more question. Why is it important that they were taught by the Apostles. Does that give their teachings more credence? Why?

[Jason]

Nina,

In answer to your question about the origins of the Freemasonic rituals, I've got a short answer to a long question:

Long before the general populace could read, there were "plays". These plays (sometime called mystery plays) were used to reinact certain events (usually a fictional story of some kind) that would help preserve in the minds of the youth the stories and traditions of their fathers. Some of the most famous mystery plays that we know of go back to the pagan days of the Greeks where the faithful would reinact some tragedy of one of the gods. (the most notable was the mystery play of Eleusis, where the devout would travel to Eleusis, reinact this horrible incident that occured to the gods, pretending to be the divinity itself, and then be initiated transforming one into a member of the elect. See this link for a detailed description: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/...ian%20mysteries )

Since literacy didn't become common until more recent times, during the middle ages, plays were still used to transmit stories from both the Bible, and from folklore. The Biblically based plays were acted out in the Catholic Churches themselves. This is where your Tapestry comes from. The reinactment of the creation story from the Book of Genesis was one of many plays done by the RCC at the time. Eventually the plays moved out of the Churches, and were taken over by traveling guilds who performed both biblical stories and fictional stories. This site will give you a good background on this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10348a.htm

As for the Freemasons, their unique "mystery play" was developed around the myth of Jack DeMolay, and his martyerdom at the hands of the French military. Hiram apparently was a member of the "Knights Templer" who were outlawed by the Catholic Pope and hunted down by the King of France (supposedly for worshipping the devil, homosexuality, and usury.) Supposedly the remaining "knights" fled to Scotland, where in time they preserved the story of DeMolay through a play. They gradually developed their play to include some "secrets" of the local masons, including the knowledge of the construction of King Solomons Temple by Hiram Abif. This story has many holes in it, and most reputable historians would scoff at such a proposition. (If you'd like to read a fun book about all of this, I recommend "The Hiram Key" by Knight and Lomas. Hardly scholarly, but it was entertaining! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...785752?v=glance )

It was upon this secret play that Joseph Smith built his Temple ceremony. If you're interested, you might do a web search on the mormon temple ceremony and freemasonry. It should be enlightening to you to say the least.

[Jason]

"OK, great. Now, please show us where, when and by which Apostles they were taught."

That's no small order. I'll have to get back to you.

"Oh, and one more question. Why is it important that they were taught by the Apostles. Does that give their teachings more credence? Why?"

Im attempting to show you a direct apostolic line of authority. Their teachings are more likely to echo those of the Apostles than, say, later theologians and church leaders, wouldn't you agree? If the teachings of the earliest Church Fathers can show that the Catholic Church has indeed preserved the Faith, then your position is considerably weakened.

[Nina]

ex M J < okay ... that is very interesting ... now can you tell me exactly what the freemason ceremony entails? What is similar and dissimilar to the mormon temple ceremony?

I am not certain that my tapestry (the one I saw) reflects these "plays" it was very specific to the temple ceremony of today probably not a typical subject...I will have to track it down and see what I can find.

Thanks for the think.

[Nina]

Ex M J < Okay ... I looked up and found a site on the internet that compare the Masonic Ceremony and the LDS Temple Ceremony. I also found that JS jr revealed the temple ceremony just months after he became a mason... I agree that there are similarities but they are not so similar. We believe that some religious bodies have portions of the truth having been a member you must know this ... but the temple ceremony that I participate in while having similarities to the masonic also have very broad differences from the masonic.

I will say it again(as I have in other posts) ... you can make anything sound the way you want it but it is the spirit which testifies of the truth.

I appreciate you bringing this up (the mason link that is) I have heard of this arguement against the mormon church before but have never researched it. Now that I have I am content.

Thanks again, Nina

[Jason]

"I am not certain that my tapestry (the one I saw) reflects these "plays" it was very specific to the temple ceremony of today probably not a typical subject...I will have to track it down and see what I can find."

Nina, you didn't read my link. Reinacting the Creation story was one of the more common plays.

As for the lds temple ceremony and freemasonry, ALL LDS scholars readily admit that Joseph Smith "borrowed" from the masonic blue lodge ceremonies. There are three "degrees" of the blue lodge, and, using the words of the masons themselves, the secret handshakes, signs, and tokens were used by Joseph in his creation of the LDS endowment ceremony.

Of course, you can continue to believe what many LDS do when researching this, that Joseph restored the ceremony to it's "true" form, and that the masons had the "apostate" version. That's a pretty common belief in your faith.

Good luck.