Saw Fahrenheit 9/11 Have You?

[Winnie G]

Ok Duck

There was more then just dates it was the flight manifest names date and flight times.

I don’t remember the dates, go see the show your self then put your movie money were your mouth is.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Jul 28 2004, 11:50 AM

Ok Duck

There was more then just dates it was the flight manifest names date and flight times.

I don’t remember the dates, go see the show your self then put your movie money were your mouth is.

Moore has made $100 million from his screed. He doesn't need my $8.50.

Like I said, reference the 9/11 Commission's report. Look at the footnotes to chapter 10. According to those FAA documents whose dates you don't remember, no Saudis left the country until commercial flights resumed on September 13.

Winnie, pretty much the whole world has given up on this one. Moore got it wrong. You can look it up, check the sources, and take it to the bank.

[Winnie G]

So you’re just going to form your opinion on what others say and write who don’t like Moore?

Oh I get it you let others do your thinking for you????

So sheep license is $8.50?

Form your own opinion Man, I never let others do that for me.

And people think Church members are brain washed and Bah like sheep.

Look it up wear Duck? It’s in “the movie” and I don’t think a movie transcript can do pictures over the internet and I don’t down load pirate movies.

Talk about granny and blurry.

Lets face it you wont go because the idea you may have been miss lead by reading and watching late night interviews on white supremacy channel.

If I send you $8.50 In US funds would you go then? Most likely not.

Thats $16 dollers Canadain pluse the money order at $4.00 dollers and then the stamp, and when I think about it you would most likly spend it else were any ways.

never mine.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Lets face it you wont go because the idea you may have been miss lead by reading and watching late night interviews on white supremacy channel.

Nice.

Now, this is just an abstract musing, not directed at any particular person, but more and more I get the impression that the people who subscribe to so-called politics of compassion tend not to be terribly pleasant. My last boss, for example.

You'd almost think they were compensating for something.

The fact that the Democratic National Convention continues to feature speaker after speaker lamenting the "divisiveness" of those nasty Republicans, while calling their opponents un-American and venerating Winnie's hero Mike like some kind of bloody plaster saint shows such mind-blowingly colossal hypocrisy that it makes me want to hurl. And I have a very high tolerance level for hypocrisy. (The tax vice pays to virtue, and all that.) I can think of people who I'd probably rather have as a President than George W. Bush, but today's Democrats have gone so far around the bend that I honestly worry some of them will get violent when they lose in November.

"Look it up" refers to the 9/11 Commission Report. You can download the whole thing at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/. Or you can buy it at amazon.com.

I refuse as a matter of principle to pay money to see anything produced by Michael Moore. I've seen enough of his work (including most of "Bowling for Columbine" on cable) to recognize that he's a mean-spirited, shallow, hate-filled demagogue. (I haven't read "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or "The Godmakers," either, but I know enough about them -- from credible third parties, whose analysis hasn't been challenged -- to recognize them as poison.) The fact that he can be pretty funny just makes him that more dangerous, because he's superficially appealing to superficial people.

[Winnie G]

Right, Ok so again “the movie” not the 9/11 Commission Report

We were not discussing the report it was the movie and what was in the FAA report in the movie, and the time line and long Bush family connection with the Bin Londin family and driven greed.

Even if like you said September 13 that’s a little fast would you not say?

As I scratch my head why did they leave? Were they at the end of their holiday? Business trip? And if they were on ether of those why should they been granted special status to fly.

Why should they not wait like every one else waiting to fly home to their home country’s.

Its OK that 1000’s of Americans were stranded out side the country but the Bin Londin family is given special status and is flown home.

(9/11 Commission Report) = other peoples opinion = not your opinion

If you don’t want to discuss the time line in the movie they why bother.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

I AM discussing the time line in the movie. I'm presenting you with irrefutable evidence that it's wrong. Whether you choose to remain loyal to St. Michael in the face of clear evidence of his dishonesty is your business.

Another problem with the movie -- this time from an Australian who's good at math:

The movie Fahrenheit 9/11 asserts the children of US congressmen are under-represented in US forces in Iraq.

There are 300 million Americans; 130,000 US troops in Iraq; 535 congressmen and women; and at least five children of congressmen serving in Iraq.

Thirty seconds of intellectual effort shows that children of US congressmen are very over-represented in Iraq; but 30 seconds is way over the capacity of admirers of Fahrenheit 9/11.

[Ray]

For those of us who aren’t good at math, here is how you would figure that out.

Out of 300 million Americans , 130,000 are in the military, so you would divide 300 million by 130,000 to see that there is 1 American in the military for every 2307.69 Americans in the population. Got that? 1 out of 2307.69.

Conversely, out of 535 Americans in Congress, 5 are in the military, meaning that there is 1 American for every 107 Americans.

Sounds “very over represented” to me.

[Winnie G]

Ok P duck.

If you have not seen the movie you cant judge it by what others say, Right

Don’t you get it?

See it for your self then we will talk.

What dives you to “just believe” others? Or me for that matter?

See It For Your Self

[john doe]

Yeah, Duck, never mind the false premises the movie is based on, you just have to go see the movie to see how Moore strings it all together to see how true it is. If you can't see how evil George Bush is and how wonderful John Kerry is, we should all feel sorry for you. It's all right there if plain sight, you just need some wacko to interpret it correctly for you. This whole charade is about bringing the New World Order into power so that the self-proclaimed Royalty of the World can get rich off of the rest of us. Can't you see it? These guys are modern-day Gadiantons hiding in plain sight and the only ones who can see it are the ones who are enlightened enough to see it. Michael Moore is merely pointing out what we, the low-lifes of the world cannot see for ourselves without ignoring the truth.

It's kind of like "that moldy bread is not so bad once you get past the fact that roaches have been eating it too".

C'mon Duck, you need to get with it or when the "right" (or is that 'liberal'?) people get into power they may need to send you to a "re-education camp". Just follow the string of yarn like a good kitty and believe what Mikey says and you will be okay. Just believe everything you see on the movie screen and then you will know how wrong you are and how right (or is that 'left'?) Mike is.

[Winnie G]

So John you have seen it ?

And you know this becouse you have witnessed it with your own eyes.

So just becouse it is Moore it has to be wrong and misleading?

[john doe]

It's a propaganda movie put out by a guy with an axe to grind--- of course everything he says is true, for two reasons: (1) because he calls it a documentary, and documentaries by law are always 100% true, and (2) just because the government comes out with documents proving he is fundamentally wrong, doesn't mean a thing.

OK, there's a third thing-- if Winnie believes it, it doesn't matter how wrong she is, she is still right.

[Ray]

Winnie,

I recommend that you go back through this entire thread and try to look at what you said, and what others have said, as objectively as you can possibly imagine. Imagine that you are seeing your posts from another person’s perspective and make sure that you are sharing information with the intent of trying to help others see what you see and that you are representing yourself the way you believe Jesus would want you to represent yourself to others, and to Him.

Lucifer is more subtle than most people realize. If we see others with love and try to do what we can to help each other see the truth, we are doing well, but if we see others with a lack of respect or consider people to be somehow inferior to us when they simply can’t see things our way, then we are not exemplifying our Lord.

Btw, for the record, I will say that Michael Moore says a lot of things that are true, just as Lucifer does, but they both want people to follow their own logic and reasoning without relying upon our Lord for guidance, and I see no good reason to rely upon them for anything.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Winnie,

Have you ever read "Mein Kampf"?

If not, how do you know Nazism is based on lies?

I have it on good authority that Moore's movie (which I haven't seen and don't intend to see) contains accusations that (1) George Bush allowed various Saudi bigshots to fly out of the country while commercial flights were suspended after 9/11, and (2) that he suggests that members of Congress are less likely than ordinary Americans to have sons and daughters fighting in Iraq.

Am I wrong? Does Moore not make these charges in the movie? You saw the film; you can tell me. Yes or no?

I've pointed out that both of those charges are demonstrably false. Again, I don't need to have seen the movie to do this.

[Winnie G]

As a women raised by a Jewish holocaust survivor (stepfather) after my father died, I think any reason not to read Hitler’s dribble would be apparent.

I don’t think asking someone to see a film and then give their opinion is asking to much.

What’s wrong with you guys? Don’t you make up your own mind?

It is like assuming that as a church member I blindly fallow the church leaders with out first using my own gift of the holy ghost helping me make decisions of my own.

None not even the prophet tells me to jump and I jump.

I have always wanted a personnel witness to every thing from spiritual to political.

I was given a mind and I use it.

Lets face it the whole point of this thread was to discuses the Movie not some propaganda you seem to feel the movie represents since none of you have taken the time to see it as I did then what’s the point?

I hate historical holocaust movies because they are family to me, but I have seen them all.

To understand with my own eye not just the words of others.

I hate historical war movies but I have seen them all.

To understand with my own eye not just the words of others.

I have read and seen every historical women’s rights book and film biography.

To understand with my own eye and hart not just the words of others. (My mothers mostly)

As a LDS woman I am considered a feminist and believe in the personal right to choose.

Not that I would choose to abort a pregnancy but I have no right to force others to the years of back ally abortionists ether.

A women has the right to have as many children as she wants not to kowtow to the patriarch of there homes, on religionist issues, birth control.

I have gay friends as well.

Some of my personal feelings shake up some of the old Guard LDS members but they have never stopped me from fallowing my spiritual self or hold a temple recommend.

Do you think I came to these beliefs by fallowing just what others had to say?

When you see the movie then we will talk, and believe it or not I would like to hear what you saw in the movie that I did not see. I like to hear your opinion, not the opinions of others you have no first hand knowledge of.

So you could say you been challenged.

I am coming to Salt Lake the first week of October, dates set, and my leave has been approved so it is set.

You see the movie Bat and P Duck and any others who like to get together at hash other ideas and Bat I will even bring you a real beer from Canada a six pack as long as you don’t drive after a few OK? Deal?

I could use a hand getting my husband in to Temple square with out him pounding the &^% out of some temple garment waving religionist wack-O.

Any one game. If all else fails I can sell tickets Right? For his bail.

[john doe]

So, Winnie, have you seen the God Makers movies? What do you think of them? And how do you know that Mein Kampf contained lies if you never read it? Do you read the articles in Penthouse and Playboy? How do you know what those things contain unless you study them thoroughly? And just because issues 1-99 may contain things that may repulse you, what makes anyone think that #100 won't contain the keys to reaching heaven?

The point is, we don't have to fully experience every thing in this world in order to judge them. We can use excerpts and other things that have come out about them and their sources in order to determine whether or not we wish to pursue them. You stated you choose not to put any credence in anything Hitler may have written even though he may have written many true statements in his book because his legacy is so evil.

Those who choose not to see Moore's movies don't see any reason to value his opinion, at least in part because of the things he says and has produced in the past. If Moore wants anyone with an open mind to see his movies and to then form a judgement, maybe he ought to start out by being a little more responsible in his other endeavors. Maybe he should quit acting like such a cartoon character if he wants to be taken seriously. I, personally, tend to stop taking seriously someone who constantly says stupid things and when confronted by their stupid statements, continues to say them. There is an old saying, maybe you have heard it, it goes something like "by their fruits you may know them". Moore's fruits don't stack up to a level where I personally wish to pay him to hear them. The guy has proven over and over what his motives are, and they don't fall in line with my values. I choose not to contribute to his bank accout just to hear his distortions and outright lies.

Just for the record, and this probably should be on another thread, I also believe in a woman's right to choose. She should be able to choose not have sex if she is not smart enough to know that pregnancy may result from doing so. She should be able to choose morality instead of whoring around whenever she feels like it. I believe that she should also choose to do the right thing and give her baby a chance to live in a loving home whenever possible. I believe that once a woman gets pregnant, she should choose not to be so selfish as to kill that life within her body just because she may be inconvienced by her choice to engage in sexual relations with someone who is not emotionally commited to their relationship. Pro-choice? Sure I am, just not in the same way that you think of it.

[Faerie]

I personally won' see it because it's rated R...

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Faerie@Aug 7 2004, 02:30 PM

I personally won' see it because it's rated R...

I won't see any movie unless it is rated PG or G. You should all admire me.

[Matt]

I take it you're referring to the camera shot of FAA records in F9/11. I still haven't seen the movie, but I'm told that the shot of FAA papers is quick and grainy...

Oh, but Duck, if you will not go to see the film, then you are basing your view on hearsay.

I have no opinion on Mr Moore's film, as I have yet to see the film for my self. If there was a cinema anywhere near where I live, perhaps I would! :)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Matt@Aug 7 2004, 07:58 PM

I take it you're referring to the camera shot of FAA records in F9/11. I still haven't seen the movie, but I'm told that the shot of FAA papers is quick and grainy...

Oh, but Duck, if you will not go to see the film, then you are basing your view on hearsay.

I have no opinion on Mr Moore's film, as I have yet to see the film for my self. If there was a cinema anywhere near where I live, perhaps I would! :)

Hearsay can be admissible in certain circumstances.

And anyway, we're not in a courtroom here. This is an Internet chat site. The rules of evidence don't apply. We can use any evidence we want.

In any event, the reason hearsay is disfavored in law is that it is considered inherently unreliable. I "hear" that Moore makes a couple of specific charges in his screed. My information appears to be reliable: Winnie isn't denying that "Fahrenheit 9/11" makes the charge that President Bush allowed certain Saudi nationals to fly out of the country while commercial aviation was shut down between 9/11/01 through 9/13/01. Neither is she denying that Moore implies that members of Congress are less likely to have sons in daughters in Iraq than other Americans.

So the reliability of my "hearsay" evidence isn't in question. I believe the contents of the movie have been reported accurately to me. Nobody's contradicted my information. Can we please move on from irrelevancies like this, and address the substance of my showing that these two charges of Moore's are false?

Winnie -- I'd love to meet you in Salt Lake, but sadly, that's 690 miles from where I live.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by john doe@Aug 7 2004, 02:11 PM

Just for the record, and this probably should be on another thread, I also believe in a woman's right to choose. She should be able to choose not have sex if she is not smart enough to know that pregnancy may result from doing so. She should be able to choose morality instead of whoring around whenever she feels like it. I believe that she should also choose to do the right thing and give her baby a chance to live in a loving home whenever possible. I believe that once a woman gets pregnant, she should choose not to be so selfish as to kill that life within her body just because she may be inconvienced by her choice to engage in sexual relations with someone who is not emotionally commited to their relationship. Pro-choice? Sure I am, just not in the same way that you think of it.

WooooHooo! Go John!

I felt so good reading that..... thank you! :)

Sometimes it's nice to hear a guy really stand up for what he believes like that....it made my day.

And it will help make up for not being able to go to church tomorrow... (work) :)

Oh....and Proud D.... thank YOU for that last courtroom post :) That was great!

[john doe]

Anytime, Lindy. It stinks to work on Sunday, but sometimes you have to do it. I have the rare one off so I get to go to church this week. It helps me keep track of the guys running for bishop.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by john doe@Aug 8 2004, 07:37 AM

Anytime, Lindy. It stinks to work on Sunday, but sometimes you have to do it. I have the rare one off so I get to go to church this week. It helps me keep track of the guys running for bishop.

[Matt]

Yay for the good 'ol strawman arguements!

Have you read Mein Kampf?

Have you seen the God Makers?

Let's include stuff that does not relate to the matter in question, in the hope that we can confuse the issue. That's not big, nor is is clever.

I have seen some programmes by Michael Moore. They were well-made and he came over as a sincere, pasionate kind of a chap. Kind of man I might like to buy a pint of ale for, in a pub. Well, several pints, maybe!

He has irked me once or twice, I don't always agree with what he says. But then, that's what adult debate is all about.

[john doe]

Let's include stuff that does not relate to the matter in question, in the hope that we can confuse the issue

But they do relate. Mein Kampf and Godmakers DO contain some grain of truth in them, just as clown-boy's movies do, but the innterpretation and conclusions they come up with are far from what is accurate or right or truthful.

Just because he has come across to you as someone who reinforces your pre-conceived notion of what is right, does not make his reporting factual.

[Matt]

Comparing apples with oranges, in my opinion.

See, the problem with Michael Young is that he has a very American approach to the world. And I most certainly do not mean this in any disrespectful way.

Michael Moore thinks that every problem has a simple answer to it. This isn't always so.

For example, I find his possible sollution to the problems of Northern Ireland to be simplistic and unworkable. But at least Mr Moore has bothered to look at the problem beyond a "lets wear green on Saint Patrick's Day and pretend we are Irish" kind of a way. If you see what I mean.