Anti-Mormons

[ktfords]

I can assume, you didn't even read the article.

Of the 13 million, all are active? No one has left? No jack mormons? No excommunications? No falling away?

How about some comment on the original article? If this statement is going to be used by its members and the Church, boasting of its membership, enlighten us why the numbers don't match up.

Other religions have numbers, they don't use them as a sales pitch. You don't have Catholics going around saying, "we have 13 million members, it must be right"..

Instead of looking at the article, it is easier to get rid of him..

The BYU professor, guessed it was around, what was it 40% or so active.

[rameumptom]

God was never man? Are you telling me that Jesus never came down to earth and became mortal? Seems to me that the Book of Mormon teaches that.

As for God having a Father (re: King Follett discourse), why do you believe the Book of Mormon must teach all the doctrines of the kingdom? One of the precepts of having continuing revelation is for prophets to give us higher and better teachings. Or do you think we should have stopped with the Mosaic Law, and rejected Jesus' teachings as being out of place in the Pentateuch?

You see how problematic your way of seeing this is? If you reject Mormonism because Joseph received newer instructions that the Nephites either didn't have, or didn't include in the gold plates; then you have to reject Jesus for the same reason. And I don't think you wish to do that.

[candyprpl]

Response to Vanhin from MA.

[You said, “Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?”]

I said, “Yup, Sure am.”

[You said, “I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.”]

________________________________________________________________________________

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.

You gave me all those points on your belief in the gospel of “Eternal Progression” and how you can return to your heavenly Father. I find it interesting that you – like so many other Mormons leave out many key points. Like God the Father has a Father who has a Father – almost never mentioned. You get to be sealed to your family and this saves them even if they are mass murderers child rapers etc – or the temple work for them is done in vein (a waste of time). The Book of Mormon is against eternal progression and a second chance after death. The Book of Mormon is against Baptism for the Dead! Study Moroni 8:18 – God was never a man because he has NEVER changed. Study Alma 34:32-36 If you die a sinner the Devil seals you his and this is the FINAL state of the wicked – no second chance. Find me any verse in the Book of Mormon that teaches eternal progression. This is the foundation of the gospel of Mormonism. Show me any verse that teaches that God is married and was once a man. If you can’t and you can’t then the Book of Mormon does not contain the FULLNESS of the everlasting Gospel. It is against that very gospel and every Mormon who claims a testimony of its truthfulness is wrong. Mormons just don’t pay attention to what the words in their book say. Try to start a Book of Mormon study. Hah, fat chance. The Bible states, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing (understanding) the word of truth.”

I have NEVER done a public debate on Mormonism. That’s because I have not found one Mormon who is confident enough in his faith and trusts his God and his prophets enough to stand in public. I have challenged Mormons everywhere for over ten years, “come out come out wherever you are!” There is only snivel for an answer. No Mormon trusts in his God or his gospel enough to stand in public. I did a fair booth in my local fair for 19 years challenging the Mormons to a public debate in the open air at the fair. Most wouldn’t even talk. Afraid. I can only conclude that Mormons do not have courage to stand for their God and their gospel. I live in Washington State and will pay for you or any Mormon priesthood holder to come out of hiding and debate me in public. No takers yet. Do you have courage?

MA from Washington

You seem a little dense to me. It's quite obvious that you don't want to hear what we have to say -- you only want to argue. I've only been a member of the LDS church for 4.5 years and I have learned more through personal study, Sunday school and group studies about the scripture contained in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, than ever before in my life. (I'm 54) We DO understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. We DON'T need to argue with you or anyone else about the truth of what we believe. You don't want a debate in public, you want an out-right yelling match. LDS do not need to have that kind of stupid interaction and I would boldly say that is why you can't get anyone to take the offer of your so-called debate. It would prove NOTHING.

Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, called in this dispensation to restore the Church of Jesus Christ and his gospel. The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and works hand in hand with the Bible. Because of the great apostasy that happened when the Church of Jesus Christ was destroyed, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on earth today.

[rameumptom]

I can assume, you didn't even read the article.

Of the 13 million, all are active? No one has left? No jack mormons? No excommunications? No falling away?

How about some comment on the original article? If this statement is going to be used by its members and the Church, boasting of its membership, enlighten us why the numbers don't match up.

Other religions have numbers, they don't use them as a sales pitch. You don't have Catholics going around saying, "we have 13 million members, it must be right"..

Instead of looking at the article, it is easier to get rid of him..

The BYU professor, guessed it was around, what was it 40% or so active.

The Catholics continue telling us they have almost one billion members, but I know they aren't all attending Catholic mass. So, I guess we aren't the only ones that do that. What we claim is that there are 13 million people on our records. Unless a person requests to be removed from the records, they are retained. Just because we count in a different fashion than your church, does not make it wrong.

Why are you swallowing camels and straining at gnats?

[john doe]

Response to Vanhin from MA.

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.

MA from Washington

Uh, what does this MA guy think we LDS do during Sunday School every week? This year's study, as it happens in in the rotation, is the Book of Mormon. We are also encouraged to study the scriptures both privately and as families, in our own homes. In addition, we are encouraged to read (and study) the Book of Mormon every year. Apparently your 'friend' needs to get their facts straight.

And I can't imagine why no Mormon would want to join your work's 'study group' about the Book of Mormon. It would be no different than wondering why most Republicans wouldn't join a 'Republican Party study group' started by George Soros and moveon.org.

On another note, KT, if your 'friend' wants to discuss things here, tell them to get their own account on the site. Remember, any rules violations made by others using you as a front for them will count as infractions against you and your IP's.

[rameumptom]

Let me add that the Book of Mormon DOES teach eternal progression. However, the Nephites were viewing things somewhat differently in their teachings than we do today. They had a different world view and perception of the world around them, so didn't always ask the same questions we would. However, Alma does teach about the Spirit World, and how many will go to hell until they are redeemed.

We believe God saves almost all mankind, except for the sons of perdition. Isn't that what John 3:16 teaches us? However, as Alma teaches and is extended in D&C 19 and 76, each will suffer for their sins in hell that they have not repented of.

Saying that the book of Mormon contains the "fulness of the gospel" does not mean it has every teaching. It means it teaches the key foundational teachings required for salvation. And one of its main premises is continuing revelation, which would include revelations given to Joseph Smith. Joseph's role was different than that of Nephi. Joseph's role is to restore all lost things in this final gospel dispensation. That would include things the Nephites may not have known, nor needed to know in their time.

[funkymonkey]

"I believe a true Christian teaches with the love of Jesus Christ.

Are you here out of love? or out of motive?"

KT,

You have answered my question loud and clear.

I am truly sorry that you are so angry.

I don't know how you got to this place in your life, and allowed the spirit of contention to have such a tight hold on you.

Please let go of the anger; do not allow it to consume you.

Maybe share the true message of Christ ... of love and peace.

Because I come here to review peaceful discussions with people of other faiths,

I no longer wish to interact with you and hope that you will respect that.

God Bless.

-Bri

[Islander]

People, you are not listening. Just drop the argument and the contention. Ktfords already showed his colors and is just here to breed anger and discord. I pointed that to him a week or so ago and he has ignored every posting.

Let him move on to other things. Who says we are to debate our faith? Someone raises an argument we respond in writing that is where FAIRS and others come in. The forum is not designed for that. He has no questions, he is not an investigator he is not interested in learning, so we should not waste our time with him. Pleae wrap the thread up.

[bytor2112]

MA....you sound like an ignorant bully. Some of the terms that you choose like "snivel" engender nothing but contention. I seriously doubt that there is anything Christ like about you. Perhaps you should repent and find some humility.

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.

I guess you learned this by peering into a crystal ball? Imagine that, no Mormon wants to play in the arrogant bullies sand box...can't imagine why!!

You gave me all those points on your belief in the gospel of “Eternal Progression” and how you can return to your heavenly Father. I find it interesting that you – like so many other Mormons leave out many key points. Like God the Father has a Father who has a Father – almost never mentioned. You get to be sealed to your family and this saves them even if they are mass murderers child rapers etc – or the temple work for them is done in vein (a waste of time). The Book of Mormon is against eternal progression and a second chance after death. The Book of Mormon is against Baptism for the Dead! Study Moroni 8:18 – God was never a man because he has NEVER changed. Study Alma 34:32-36 If you die a sinner the Devil seals you his and this is the FINAL state of the wicked – no second chance. Find me any verse in the Book of Mormon that teaches eternal progression. This is the foundation of the gospel of Mormonism. Show me any verse that teaches that God is married and was once a man. If you can’t and you can’t then the Book of Mormon does not contain the FULLNESS of the everlasting Gospel. It is against that very gospel and every Mormon who claims a testimony of its truthfulness is wrong. Mormons just don’t pay attention to what the words in their book say. Try to start a Book of Mormon study. Hah, fat chance. The Bible states, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing (understanding) the word of truth.”

Perhaps we don't care to "cast our pearls before swine". If you read the introduction to the Book of Mormon it states in part, "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel."

In 2 Nephi, Ch. 29, we read why the need for the Book of Mormon,

"7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

As for studying the scriptures...... we seek the Holy Spirit for guidance... I doubt that you even know what that is.....to teach us sacred truths. Again, you wouldn't understand.....

I have NEVER done a public debate on Mormonism. That’s because I have not found one Mormon who is confident enough in his faith and trusts his God and his prophets enough to stand in public. I have challenged Mormons everywhere for over ten years, “come out come out wherever you are!” There is only snivel for an answer. No Mormon trusts in his God or his gospel enough to stand in public. I did a fair booth in my local fair for 19 years challenging the Mormons to a public debate in the open air at the fair. Most wouldn’t even talk. Afraid. I can only conclude that Mormons do not have courage to stand for their God and their gospel. I live in Washington State and will pay for you or any Mormon priesthood holder to come out of hiding and debate me in public. No takers yet. Do you have courage?

Again not wanting to cast pearls before swine. MA you are an arrogant, self aggrandizing, bully. Judging by your posts you would struggle to articulate any type of clear, understandable thought or idea, much less be able to expound on any serious matters of doctrine, Biblical or otherwise. Why don't you try a little humility, a little love, a little gentleness of nature and dare I say a little courtesy. Regardless of what you believe about our faith, we hold it to be Sacred and Holy. I hope you feel the same way about your beliefs and if you do, allow for others to feel that as well, regardless of your opinion.

Edited July 31, 2008 by bytor2112

[Islander]

Moderator....moderator? Can we be done with this non-sense?

[Jenamarie]

Beauler... Beauler...

[Guest Seraphim]

Thread closed.

Seraphim