best example of faith

[bcguy]

That was the topic in class today and for some reason I came up with a responce of being stuck in a severe storm and having no way out. Starving and freezing to death you pray to get out alive and something miraculous happens. I do not know if that is the best example. Perhaps some one can give better examples.

Edited July 28, 2008 by bcguy

[VisionOfLehi]

Being filled with despair, a sense of being lost, wayward, and a general spirit of darkness

And then having a hope that brings you to the font of baptism to have all of that washed away. Being filled with a knowledge that there is a plan, a map for life, a light in the world, and that I am going towards it.

[StrawberryFields]

Having a tragic accident happen to someone you love dearly, then being told to say goodbye before surgery. With that goodbye you are given the opportunity to give a blessing and turning the fate of your loved one to the Lord.

That is real faith, not knowing the outcome but giving this persons fate to the will of the Lord.

[MorningStar]

It's like that scene in Indiana Jones where he steps out on the invisible bridge (in the Last Crusade).

[MarginOfError]

Faith is accepting that x*0=0 for all real numbers x

[DigitalShadow]

I think that in order to show examples of faith, we must first define the concept. There are many different definitions of the word 'faith' and there are even more connotations. I've had missionaries tell me that turning on a light using a switch is an act of faith, but I only flick the lightswitch because I have observed that the light usually turns on afterwards. I don't have faith that the light will turn on, in fact I wouldn't be very suprised at all if it didn't.

[MarginOfError]

I've come to work under the definition that it's faith if you can't explain the workings of the system. In the case of most Americans, I would say that flipping a light switch is not a case of faith because most Americans understand that flipping the switch completes the circuit, sending electricity to the bulb, which causes the filament to burn.

I like to use the x*0=0 example because it's something that everyone assumes they know, but the majority of people can't explain why x*0=0, and they certainly can't prove it. But it's something we apply all the time and trust that it must be true because if it didn't, things would start to get screwed up in a hurry.

I could carry the analogy further, but I'd get way to excited, and that should never happen.

[Misshalfway]

I think that faith is continuing to make right and obedient choices even when such action would defy logic, or personal comfort or popular opinion. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is centered in Christ and can be placed on every principle that is true, whether it can be seen and measured or not.

I am reading 1 Nephi. Those pages are littered with examples of faith. It seems every step of Nephi's walk was taken in faith. He leaves his comfortable home, returns multiple times to get the plates, he asks God to confirm the words of his father and then sees visions of his own! Hee makes a bow to find food and constructs a boat from no personal knowledge and manages lovingly thru a very dysfunctional family! He was true at all times, including stressful ones when everyone was hungry and tired and murmuring and when he could have been scared, as I imagine I would be in the face of a drunken Laban and a commandment from God to take his life or an older brother who wanted to take his life! How many excuses he could have found NOT to follow the commandments of God. How easy it would have been to question his father or to give up after 6 years in the wilderness! But he stayed the course thru the hardships and trials and confusions and long periods of the uneventful and stretches where promised blessings had yet to be realized. I look at myself and wonder because it is so easy for me to murmur when things get hard or to get impatient with the Lord while I wait in my wilderness, longing for my promised land.

[DigitalShadow]

I've come to work under the definition that it's faith if you can't explain the workings of the system. In the case of most Americans, I would say that flipping a light switch is not a case of faith because most Americans understand that flipping the switch completes the circuit, sending electricity to the bulb, which causes the filament to burn.

I like to use the x*0=0 example because it's something that everyone assumes they know, but the majority of people can't explain why x*0=0, and they certainly can't prove it. But it's something we apply all the time and trust that it must be true because if it didn't, things would start to get screwed up in a hurry.

I could carry the analogy further, but I'd get way to excited, and that should never happen.

I got your point in your other post (at least I hoped that was your point), and I agree to you for the most part. I would however like to explore the concept further.

Is it faith when I get in my car and drive to work everyday? I have a vague understanding of how internal combustion engines work, but the vast majority of the inner workings of my car are a mystery to me (I know, I fail as a guy, I can't even fix my own car). But to me driving my car is just a means to an end. I don't have faith that it will get me to work, I certainly hope it will, but it would not crush my belief system if the car broke down.

When most people talk about faith, they are referring to it in a religious context though. Is driving my car to work every day faith in the same sense that believing God exists is? I often hear the argument that I have faith in things every day (like driving my car), so it is not that much of a jump to have faith in God, but this argument breaks down because they are conflating two different definitions of the word.

[MarginOfError]

I do have a connection for you there. If you do not understand the finer details of internal combustion (and neither do I for the record, so I'll continue in the first person plural), we are indeed driving our cars in an act of faith. However, our faith has been reinforced by experience; namely, most of the time, when we hop in our cars and turn the keys and drive off, it works for us.

Faith in God works much the same way. By having experiences that we cannot fully explain, we develop our faith into a kind of working knowledge--we've come to expect certain things because of the past experiences we've had. Just like, after time, because of our faith we expect the car to work.

Phase two of the analogy: what happens when the car fails to work? If it were to happen the first time we ever experienced a car, we'd probably abandon the idea entirely. But, since we have more experience with them working, when they don't work, we assume something in the vehicle has changed. We also learn this from seeing other people's cars break down, but someone with more knowledge is able to repair it. These experiences are why our entire faith system in cars doesn't come crashing down around us when one doesn't work.

The parallel: Sometimes, even when we have faith, something happens in our lives that is contrary to the results we expected under our system of faith. It could be an illness, a job loss, your arch enemy called as bishop, or a crazy girlfriend. But because our faith tells us what to expect most of the time, when these trials arise, we can assume that something in the system is different. We can rely on other with more knowledge and/or experience to help us understand these things, or we can just trust that those people do understand them and let them handle them (Stake Presidents, Bishops, etc).

The analogy deviates from car in that with faith, the change in the system is sometimes in us and needs modification. You can try to tie up the loose ends on your own if you like. But I think the gist of what I'm saying holds, even if the details don't line up exactly.

[Misshalfway]

Bible Dictionary: Faith

Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11:1; Alma 32:21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone. The Lord has revealed himself and his perfect character, possessing in their fulness all the attributes of love, knowledge, justice, mercy, unchangeableness, power and every other needful thing, so as to enable the mind of man to place confidence in him without reservation. Faith is kindled by hearing the testimony of those who have faith (Rom 10:14-17). Miracles do not produce faith but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ; in other words, faith comes by righteousness, although miracles often confirm one's faith.

Faith is a principle of action and of power, and by it one can command the elements and/or heal the sick or influence any number of circumstances when occasion warrents. (Jacob 4:4-7). Even more important, by faith one obtains a remission of sins and eventually can stand in the presence of God.

All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more than belief, since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical or mental action; it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the things hoped for. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

Although faith is a gift, it must be cultured and sought after until it grows from a tiny seed to a great tree. The effects of true faith in Jesus Christ include 1) an actual knowledge that the course of life one is pursuing is acceptable to the Lord (Heb 11 :4), 2) a reception of the blessings of the Lord that are available to man in this life; and 3) an assurance of personal salvation in the world to come. These things involve individual and personal testimony, guidance, revelation, and spiritual knowledge. Where there is true faith there are miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that he gives to his saints. Jesus pointed out some obstacles to faith in John 5:44 and 12:39-42.

The most complete and systematic exposition on faith is Lectures on Faith, prepared for and delivered in the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1832.

[DigitalShadow]

I do have a connection for you there. If you do not understand the finer details of internal combustion (and neither do I for the record, so I'll continue in the first person plural), we are indeed driving our cars in an act of faith. However, our faith has been reinforced by experience; namely, most of the time, when we hop in our cars and turn the keys and drive off, it works for us.

Faith in God works much the same way. By having experiences that we cannot fully explain, we develop our faith into a kind of working knowledge--we've come to expect certain things because of the past experiences we've had. Just like, after time, because of our faith we expect the car to work.

Phase two of the analogy: what happens when the car fails to work? If it were to happen the first time we ever experienced a car, we'd probably abandon the idea entirely. But, since we have more experience with them working, when they don't work, we assume something in the vehicle has changed. We also learn this from seeing other people's cars break down, but someone with more knowledge is able to repair it. These experiences are why our entire faith system in cars doesn't come crashing down around us when one doesn't work.

The parallel: Sometimes, even when we have faith, something happens in our lives that is contrary to the results we expected under our system of faith. It could be an illness, a job loss, your arch enemy called as bishop, or a crazy girlfriend. But because our faith tells us what to expect most of the time, when these trials arise, we can assume that something in the system is different. We can rely on other with more knowledge and/or experience to help us understand these things, or we can just trust that those people do understand them and let them handle them (Stake Presidents, Bishops, etc).

The analogy deviates from car in that with faith, the change in the system is sometimes in us and needs modification. You can try to tie up the loose ends on your own if you like. But I think the gist of what I'm saying holds, even if the details don't line up exactly.

I guess there are more parallels than I originally thought, thanks for the insight :). I do think there is a major difference between the two that you are missing though. If you drive your car to work, you know that it worked and was in fact the car that did something that would not have happened otherwise. If you pray and demonstrate religious faith, there is no way to know that the results of that would not have happened otherwise and you are left trying to sort out your own confirmation bias.

I think that there is a fundemantal difference between having faith that your car will take you to work and having faith that God did something for you that would not have happened in the first place. There are similarities, but the difference between them is a big one.

[MarginOfError]

I think that there is a fundemantal difference between having faith that your car will take you to work and having faith that God did something for you that would not have happened in the first place. There are similarities, but the difference between them is a big one.

Stop putting holes in my logic. I know EVERYTHING!

Yeah, I'll concede the point. But isn't it great that there are no perfect analogies, and that some analogies are better suited to certain situations than others?

[DigitalShadow]

Stop putting holes in my logic. I know EVERYTHING!

Yeah, I'll concede the point. But isn't it great that there are no perfect analogies, and that some analogies are better suited to certain situations than others?

I'm not trying to nitpick (though I know I have a tendency to do that), I was just making the point that there is a significant difference between everyday 'faith' and religious faith and it is not trivial to make the jump between them :)

[Misshalfway]

I think there is a way to prove the Lord. I know when I obey, I am happier. I feel blessings in my life....little ones and big ones. Spiritual answers come to me thru out the day in the form of ideas or hymns or feelings. When I am disobedient and take myself away from the Lord, I feel the absence of these blessings. I feel alone. Things don't feel as warm and my life doesn't work in the same way. Fear takes a greater hold and I feel less assurance that things will be ok.

And then there are the blessings that seem coincidental. But I have had experience where I have received spiritual confirmations and other such experiences that were indeed separate from myself. Experience that I can compare to scripture and other followers to confirm origins and meanings. I can testify clearly about that. I can also say that testimony doesn't hinge on one spiritual experience. It is daily walk of building and growing and developing and stretching. This diligence plays a major role in how ones faith is shaped over time and what evidences one can then testify of without reservation.

And MOE, you crack me up.