Link Between "Fruit" and "Bread and Water?"

[Justice]

Hey TomK, and everyone, take a look at this scripture I found last night and see if it means anything to you.

Alma 5:

34 Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely;

If you ever paid attention to Alma, when he says "yea" it means he is re-stating the same thing in different words to clarify or draw comparison.

I did a chiasmus study of chapter 5 to maybe learn something about this verse, since I have been studying "fruit" and "bread and water" for many years now. I have never made a direct link, until I did this.

Chapter 5 has 62 verses. So, let's use 31 as our central theme of the chapter.

31 Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!

Repentance. That could be the central theme for the Book of Mormon.

Using a chiastic breakdown, if we compare verses 34 and 28 we get something interesting.

28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

Before I just plunder forward with what I see there, anyone else care to take a stab at it?

Hint: Lehi and Nephi's dream, namely the components Nephi defines... and perhaps one he doesn't.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Justice

[Justice]

Okay, either no one is interested or I'm the only one who found that scripture interesting.

In Nephi's dream, the great and spacious building was pride, and the Waters of Life (Living Waters) separated it from the Tree of Life.

Doesn't repentance separate those who are prideful from the fruit of the tree? Interesting that repentance is compared to the Waters of Life. Is that a possible correlation to baptism?

And, I see the fruit identified and defined, even if vaguely, in Nephi's dream.

I see the Waters of Life (Living Waters) named but not defined (a possible definition above).

I see the Bread of Life defined but not named.

Anyone see the Bread of Life in Nephi's (and Lehi's) dream?

[BenRaines]

To me Fruit is the product of something. Fruit of our labor, fruit of the tree, etc.

Fruit of the Tree of Life could be that bread and living water that you speak of in the verses.

Ben Raines

[Moksha]

Perhaps these symbols can have overlapping meanings. Are they not good, desirable and satisfying at the same time?

[Justice]

They certainly do have overlapping meanings.

1 Ne. 11:

25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

Many people think think that these things are symbols for the love of God. But, they are a representation of the love of God, or a symbol for the representation of the love of God. See the difference? Well, what is the epitomy of the love of God?

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christ is the ultimate showing of God's love. The fruit of the tree is a symbol for Jesus Christ, and the other things (bread, water, rod of iron, tree of life) are all representations of different aspects of Jesus Christ (flesh, blood, spirit).

John 6:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

• • •

48 I am that bread of life.

• • •

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 4:

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

• • •

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There are many scriptures about fruit, especially about firstfruits, throughout the scriptures. Do a seach for firstfruit on the web edition of the scriptures on the Church web site.

Prov. 3:

9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Nephi says that the the tree of life represents the love of God. Let's zero in on the fruit, or the purpose for the tree.

1 Cor. 15:

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

A fruit has both flesh and "water."

Now, my point:

What is the "overlapping" symbol in the vision for the Bread of Life?

Luke 4:

4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

The Rod of Iron is the Word of God, is it not?

I have to tell you, I never imagined how deep this subject matter gets. It leads you to the Garden of Eden where the Tree of Life was present, where Adam and Eve could not eat after they transgressed. Why could they not eat?

Alma 42:

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

It leads you to Gethsemane, which means Winepress or Olivepress. Interesting, it is the place where the "fruit of the Lord" was pressed and blood came from every pore.

When you think that Christ literally reversed the effects of the Fall of Adam, you can better understand the Atonement. Think through what happened to Adam, from spiritual to physical, and from immortal to mortal, and from life to death, and reverse that to gain a better understanding of some of the details of the Atonement. Namely, He literally shed His blood to give way to spirit, and immortality, and life.

Moses 6:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Flesh or bread are not mentioned in verse 60, but water, Spirit, and blood are.

Anyoine seeing what I'm seeing?

You will probably have to read this post and the related scriptures many times. It has taken me years to "catch" this... but I'm slower than the average Joe.

The next time you read it, if you did not do it the first time, think of the Sacrament, Baptism, and other ordinances, and how they are a symbol of Christ as related in Lehi and Nephi's vision.

[Justice]

Bump (to go along with my post in the "Eve" thread)

[Guest tomk]

Justice:

Not sure if I am capturing all of your meaning, but one thing I can say is -- there was more to the shedding of Christ's Blood than we might think.

I should begin by reminding myself - The Atonement is not comprehensible to the mortal mind, save God should reveal it to us. What we do understand, we cannot speak. Words are inadequate.

In this book the author focuses on the fact that at some point ... Christ had no more blood and yet went on living!! And He could have kept on living indefinitely, just as Adam and Eve could have remained in their condition indefinitely.

1 Cor. 15: 22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

made alive

What a humble reference to the effects of the Atonement upon us - from moment to moment!

I don't fully understand all the implications of "Fruit" vs "Bread and Water" vs "Bread of Life" vs "Fountain of Liiving Water"

The scriptures give us a pattern -- OVER and OVER and OVER again. They lay-out the intended blessings we are to receive while yet mortal. For those who have the law given, like us, who have taken Christ as their Guide, like us -- the scriptures have the most impact and meaning when viewed in the correct light.

The scriptures give a pattern -- of what God's people, both as a NATION as well as INDIVIDUALLY -- are given by obeying the Voice of the Lord.

It comes down to one word:

ZION

We are to be "Zion Socities" of ONE. Each of us, individually, are to be ZION individuals. And when the day comes when we are to gather together, we will be ZION -- the gathering into ONE of ZION individuals.

The promises of the scriptures make the most sense in light of building up ZION.

One of the things that will be needed in order to "gather the elect" from the "four corners of the earth" will be an army of translated beings. ZION will be a city where the elect of God will dwell. It will be a city of translated beings.

When you think about that need -- for translated individuals who can JUMP from one continent to another in the blink of an eye (think Priesthood Power) -- the following description and promised blessings make the most sense:

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. 25 And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth [think Second Comforter -- Jesus ministers to us directly, lays His hands upon us, and sends us forth to gather the elect], the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.

27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all things; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth, the life and the light, the Spirit and the power, sent forth by the will of the Father [sENT FORTH TO DO WHAT??? GATHER THE ELECT OF GOD AND BRING THEM TO ZION] through Jesus Christ, his Son.

28 But no man is possessor of all things except he be purified and cleansed from all sin.

When you think about what is NEEDFUL for our day -- don't we need to know how to prepare to meet God? What will ZION be prepared to do? Meet God!!!!! :)

Those who EAT and DRINK of what Christ has to offer [ETERNAL LIFE] -- will never thrist and will never hunger. In other words -- the Translated state. The IDEAL condition for missionary work, trumped only by the Gift of Eternal Life.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

and this:

John 6: 33, 35, 48, 51

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

• • •

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

• • •

48 I am that bread of life.

• • •

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sure, we can understand from this that there is a relationship between OBEDIENCE and EVENTUAL EXALATION (both Immortality and the KIND of life God lives)

But of what relevance is NOT DYING to our MORTAL existence?

Remember -- the scriptures give a pattern.

So if the 3 Nephites give a pattern in their continuiing to LIVE and LIVE and LIVE -- what are the implications for you and I?

That is all I have to give. :)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand. CHARITY, ONE, ZION, MISSIONARY WORK

[Guest tomk]

Justice:

Not sure if I am capturing all of your meaning, but one thing I can say is -- there was more to the shedding of Christ's Blood than we might think.

I should begin by reminding myself - The Atonement is not comprehensible to the mortal mind, save God should reveal it to us. What we do understand, we cannot speak. Words are inadequate.

In this book the author focuses on the fact that at some point ... Christ had no more blood and yet went on living!! And He could have kept on living indefinitely, just as Adam and Eve could have remained in their condition indefinitely.

1 Cor. 15: 22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

made alive

What a humble reference to the effects of the Atonement upon us - from moment to moment!

I don't fully understand all the implications of "Fruit" vs "Bread and Water" vs "Bread of Life" vs "Fountain of Liiving Water"

The scriptures give us a pattern -- OVER and OVER and OVER again. They lay-out the intended blessings we are to receive while yet mortal. For those who have the law given, like us, who have taken Christ as their Guide, like us -- the scriptures have the most impact and meaning when viewed in the correct light.

The scriptures give a pattern -- of what God's people, both as a NATION as well as INDIVIDUALLY -- are given by obeying the Voice of the Lord.

It comes down to one word:

ZION

We are to be "Zion Societies" of ONE. Each of us, individually, are to be ZION individuals. And when the day comes when we are to gather together, we will be ZION -- the gathering into ONE of ZION individuals.

The promises of the scriptures make the most sense in light of building up ZION.

One of the things that will be needed in order to "gather the elect" from the "four corners of the earth" will be an army of translated beings. ZION will be a city where the elect of God will dwell. It will be a city of translated beings.

When you think about that need -- for translated individuals who can JUMP from one continent to another in the blink of an eye (think Priesthood Power) -- the following description and promised blessings make the most sense:

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;

26 He that is ordained of God and sent forth [think Second Comforter -- Jesus ministers to us directly, lays His hands upon us, and sends us forth to gather the elect], the same is appointed to be the greatest, notwithstanding he is the least and the servant of all.

27 Wherefore, he is possessor of all things; for all things are subject unto him, both in heaven and on the earth, the life and the light, the Spirit and the power, sent forth by the will of the Father [sENT FORTH TO DO WHAT??? GATHER THE ELECT OF GOD AND BRING THEM TO ZION] through Jesus Christ, his Son.

28 But no man is possessor of all things except he be purified and cleansed from all sin.

When you think about what is NEEDFUL for our day -- don't we need to know how to prepare to meet God? What will ZION be prepared to do? Meet God!!!!! :)

Those who EAT and DRINK of what Christ has to offer [ETERNAL LIFE] -- will never thrist and will never hunger. In other words -- the Translated state. The IDEAL condition for missionary work, trumped only by the Gift of Eternal Life.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

and this:

John 6: 33, 35, 48, 51

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

• • •

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

• • •

48 I am that bread of life.

• • •

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Sure, we can understand from this that there is a relationship between OBEDIENCE and EVENTUAL EXALATION (both Immortality and the KIND of life God lives)

But of what relevance is NOT DYING to our MORTAL existence?

Remember -- the scriptures give a pattern.

So if the 3 Nephites give a pattern in their continuiing to LIVE and LIVE and LIVE -- what are the implications for you and I?

That is all I have to give. :)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand. CHARITY, ONE, ZION, MISSIONARY WORK

Edited September 17, 2008 by tomk

[Guest tomk]

1 Ne. 15: 36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.

D&C 6: 13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

D&C 14: 7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

Christ is synonymous with ETERNAL LIFE. The fruits, bread, water that flow from Him -- all have to do with ETERNAL LIFE.

As ETERNAL LIFE relates to ZION and the GATHERING OF THE ELECT -- it is the Translated condtion:

if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

Edited September 17, 2008 by tomk

[Guest tomk]

Tree = Heavenly Parents

Fruit = their offspring

Tree = Earthly Parents

Fruit = their offsprint

Tree = Christ (as "Father")

Fruit = Adopted sons and daughters (reborn)

Tree = ???

Fruit = ???

Just popped in my head. I did not anaylze it -- just wrote it down. :)

[Justice]

Christ had no more blood and yet went on living!! And He could have kept on living indefinitely, just as Adam and Eve could have remained in their condition indefinitely.

Yes!

Yes!

Yes!

I knew I could count on you Tom.

I haven't read that book. I haven't even clicked that link yet. But, here is something else that was revealed to me about the Atonement and Christ's shedding of blood.

We often wonder why He retained the nail marks in His hands and feet. Well, I bet He has the marks on His back, side, and head too.

I can't believe the Father would allow His Son to go through an ounce of pain that was not necessary. So, how was the wearing of a crown of thorns, the scourging He took on His back, the nails in His hands and feet, and the spear in His side all part of the Atonement?

Here is what I know to be true from what I have been taught by the spirit:

The purging of His blood was complete, just as you claim this author states. He was literally immortal on the cross when He said, "It is finished." Well, what was finished? He still needed to visit the spirit world, bridge the gap between Paradise and Prison, lead the missionary effort into Prison, be resurrected and return to His Father. So, what was finished?

The reversal of the affects of the fall of Adam in His person. Adam fell from immortal to mortal; he was quickened by spirit, then by blood. Christ "rose" from mortal to immortal; He was quickened by blood, then by spirit. In order to do this His blood had to be purged, or shed. Gethsemane started a crushing process like that of a grape for wine or an olive for oil... and so the allegories. Do you know what Gethsemane means?

In the Guide to the Scriptures:

GS Gethsemane

A garden spoken of in the New Testament as being near the Mount of Olives. In Aramaic, the word gethsemane means “olive press.” Jesus went to the garden on the night that Judas betrayed him. There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind (Matt. 26: 36, 39; Mark 14: 32; John 18: 1; Alma 21: 9; D&C 19: 15-19).

So, as a symbol that the purging of His blood that happened in Gethsemane (like an olive press) was complete, every extremity of His body was pierced or "broken."

First His head with a crown of thorns.

Second His back with whip woven with sharp bones and metal.

Third His hands and feet with nails.

Fourth His side/front with a spear.

The symbols on His body stand as a witness, for whatever purpose, to show His purging was complete. If each and every one were not necessary the Father would not have made Him endure that pain.

So, Christ literally reversed the affects of the fall in His own body, and can now, through resurrection, pass that on to us. It wasn't as easy as just dying and being resurrected for Him. He had to endure complete death while yet alive, and remain alive... and overcome.

This is one of the most powerful truths ever revealed to me. It greatly strengthens my understanding and testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and shows me beyond any doubt that Christ is capable of all things.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Justice

[Guest tomk]

Justice:

Amen. :)

[Justice]

I'm going to move this here because it's so relevant.

Eve basically states: If it were not for our transgressions, we would not have the atonement, have children, and have a hope for eternal life.

This has been a serious topic of study of mine for a long time. You might need to read this post a few times, and prayerfully, because I packed it full with years of study and revelation I've received.

I think it's interesting how people interpret Eve's comment. Here's the scripture:

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Although Eve is speaking about children, she is referring to more than just children. She said "seed." Let's take a look:

Seed = children

Seed = food

Seed = Word of God

If you are unsure where the scriptures make these ties I'd be glad to post a list for you.

It would have been pointless for Eve to have children if she did not know how to feed them physical food or spiritual food (represented by bread (physical) and water (spiritual)).

1) If they did not have physical food, given to them by God, their mortal lives would not have lasted very long: It seems silly to say, but if they were granted a mortal probation and given time to repent, they needed sufficient time. To have sufficient time, they needed to learn how to get food for themselves, since, because of the fall, it would no longer be provided for them.

Gensis 3:

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Fruit was the real deal. Of all the plants God created, He created seed bearing plants first.

Gen. 1:

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

• • •

29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Have you ever wanted to know how to tell the difference between a fruit and a vegetable? Why look outside the scriptures to people who "think" they know the answer?

Anyway, see how we have "mother earth" and seeds are referred to here as "his?" I don't want to get R rated, but look at the similarities between planting seeds and human reproduction. Adam was to "break the surface" of mother earth and plant seeds, then they were nourished and they grew out from mother earth, each seed after his kind... or offspring. Each new fruit possessing seed within itself after it's kind for another generation of life.

He ordained fruit for man. He was to eat of all the fruit except one. Now, after his transgression, he also had to eat "the herb of the field," and he was to till whatever he grew himself. All of these foods ordained for man grew from seeds, which they now understood their purpose. Knowing their purpose he was able to relate seed and reproduction to the commandment God gave him to multiply and replenish the earth.

If you pretend you know nothing of the birds and the bees it really is a powerful way to teach Adam this.

Also, since God taught Adam that he was "taken from the dust of the earth" and that God planted that seed (His), he understood that he was God's offspring. What a powerful witness for Heavenly Mother and the true interpretation of "God created man in His likeness, after His kind, from the dust of the earth."

2) If they did not have spiritual food, or the Gospel, they would have remained spiritually dead.

I really don't need to quote scripture for this one, I think everyone understands this one already. They now understood what it meant to keep commandments and that there were consequences when they didn't. Unless man understands consequences, it is impossible to judge them for "good and evil."

3) Only after they had physical seeds and spiritual seeds, to "feed" their offspring, were they allowed to have seed of their own.

Now re-read Eve's comments and see how powerful and intelligent her comments were, and how they really bear witness that 1) Adam and Eve did not understand "good and evil" and thereby 2) were not able to have children (seed) before the fall.

Specifically about the fruit: We are to eat the flesh of the fruit to get to the seeds. This comment opens up a world of symbols and types of the Savior and Sacrament. Yes, fruit is the most powerful example of many things God is trying to teach us. This is why it was placed in the Garden of Eden as symbols of "the knowledge of good and evil," and as the symbol of "life" (tree of life). This should also make you think of Jacob's allegory of the olive tree and Lehi and Nephi's vison of the tree of life and the fruit that was white and sweet above all things.

Could the seeds insdie the fruit they tasted of be eternal life? And, we have to "partake" of Christ (which is what the fruit of the tree represents--the representation of the love of God is Christ) in order to get His Spirit (seeds), or Eternal Life?

Hmmmm

You tell me how far you can go with this symbolism.

Look at the covenant:

Gen. 17:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

[Guest tomk]

Something else that is interesting.

What I am about to suggest BEAUTIFIES and STRENGTHENS what Christ did -- it does not take away from it.

What made Christ (and us, eventually) the "greatest of all" was His surrender to the will of the Father.

Without that surrender, Christ could NOT have completed the Atonement.

We say this so much in the Church, that we miss the implications completely.

Said another way -- CHRIST ACTED AS PROXY FOR THE FATHER'S ATONEMENT.

The merging of their mind and will was so complete that it was just AS IF Elohim Himself had come down and performed the Atonement!

This is why Christ ALWAYS defers to the FATHER.

Look at these isolated statements with NEW EYES:

John 8: 28, 54

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

• • •

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

"I do nothing of myself" -- this is not FALSE HUMILITY. Christ is being quite literal here. "Without the Father I REALLY CAN DO NOTHING." [[ INCLUDING THE ATONEMENT ]]

Alma 26: 12

12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.

These words were uttered by the Savior .... as He spoke of His Father as well:

John 5: 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14: 7, 9

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

• • •

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Mosiah 15: 2-3, 5, 7

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

• • •

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

• • •

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

The Son acted as proxy for the Father.

[Hemidakota]

Justice, I don’t see the connection. The term YEA is another way of saying AND. The fruit of the tree is metaphor of the eternal joy [sweet taste] and rewards [being with the Savior] of receiving such. Though, I could be wrong, I regard the Tree of Life a personification of Jesus Christ.

Jeanette W. Miller wrote an article titled The Tree of Life, a Personification of Christ. In her abstract she said the following:

Throughout history in many cultures, man has looked to the tree of life as a symbol of eternal life. It has been typified in varying forms according to the culture's perception of the universe. Many early Christians saw the tree of life as a personification of Jesus Christ. It may be that the tree of life vision in the Book of Mormon was presented to introduce the Savior and his ministry. We may learn much about the Lord's calling and personality by combining a study of various cultural ideas of the tree of life with the testimonies of the prophets contained in the scriptures.

Although Lehi's dream of the tree of life is among the best-known passages of the Book of Mormon, it may also be one of the least understood. Why is this dream so important that it was given such a prominent place at the beginning of the book, almost as if it were an introduction? Why are there so many chapters of explanation that follow? I would like to explore the possibility that the dream was given to teach about Christ. Nephi explains that the words that he wrote were for the express purpose of persuading his people to believe in Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 33:4), for, he says: "My soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ, . . . and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him" (2 Ne. 11:4). As the angel gave Nephi the explanation of the tree of life, he stated that the fulness of the gospel would come to the Gentiles and from the Gentiles to the remnant of Nephi's seed that they might receive nourishment from the "true vine," to be grafted into the "true olive-tree" (1 Ne. 15:13, 15-16).

I propose that the tree of life is a personification of Jesus Christ. This paper will compare some of the basic elements of Lehi's dream and its subsequent interpretation with other passages of scripture and with the symbolism of the tree of life in other cultures, weaving the threads into a design depicting the nature of the Savior's calling and personality. I will equate the tree of life with the temple, for in many regards it functions like a temple, particularly where no temple is present. Further, I compare the features of the tree of life with several elements of John M. Lundquist's temple typology. Those points of the temple typology that I wish to consider are (1) the temple is associated with the tree of life; (2) the earthly temple and the tree may also be seen as a copy or counterpart of the heavenly model; (3) the temple and the tree of life are associated with the primordial hillock and the waters of life; (4) they are the link between the worlds and are the places where one meets with and receives the instructions of God; (5) they are central to the economic structure of the society and assure abundance and prosperity; (6) the temple and tree of life are associated with the sacral meal; (7) the temple plays a legit imizing political role; and, finally, (8) both are places of sacrifice.

It is not an original concept to relate the tree of life to Jesus, as early Christians also saw the connection. In the late third century, Methodius, like other patristic authors, likened the Savior to the tree of life.

The tree of life is the firstborn of all wisdom, . . . the tree which is planted near the running waters which brings forth its fruit in due season. . . . He who does not believe in Christ and does not perceive that he is the first principle, the tree of life and is unable to show to God his tabernacle adorned with the loveliest fruit, how will he be able to rejoice?

Clement of Alexandria added his testimony by saying that "the Word blossomed and bore fruit, being 'made flesh' and gave it to those 'who had tasted of His graciousness.'" The greatest symbolic value of the tree is that it symbolizes Christ, who is the Word (John 1:1-17). It is he who is The Word, the tree planted by the water's edge which the Father has begotten without intermediary, laden with fruit, flourishing, tall, fair-branched. Christ is the tree of life.

In latter-day scripture, we read in Alma 32:28-42 that as Alma taught about faith, he compared "the word unto a seed." He continued that if the individual has the desire and will plant the "true seed" in his heart, "it shall be a tree [a tree of life] springing up unto everlasting life" (Alma 32:41). This tree, if nourished, will bring forth fruit "which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye [the righteous] shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled" (Alma 32:42).

Whether deciduous or evergreen, a vine or a pole, the cosmic tree is a perfect symbol of Jesus. When it is deciduous, the branches of the tree spread throughout the universe, creating a protective umbrella over all the earth. The trunk, the Axis Mundi, extends from the heavens through the center of the universe downward, connecting with the earth, then continuing down into the underworld and the waters of chaos. There the roots spread out in the realm of the dead, creating the foundation upon which the earth was laid. The shedding of its blossoms, fruit, and leaves in the appropriate season, to come forth anew the following season, typifies resurrection and life everlasting. Although the tree loses its leaves and for all intents and purposes appears to be dead, the root remains alive and renews life the following season. The fruit, sap, or oil was desirable for its curative value. The fruit was the food of the gods and of the righteous-Â*that which gave eternal life.

The Savior is personified by the tree. His influence, or the "light of Christ," fills the immensity of space. He is "in all things; [it is he] which giveth life to all things" and "quickeneth all things" (D&C 88:13, 17). He, like the branches of the tree of life which encompass the entire earth, protects and gives life to every living thing.

A further reminder is that Christ was crucified and lay three days in a sepulchre. It appeared to all that he was dead, but at the end of the three days he rose "from the dead, with healing in his wings" (2 Ne. 25:13). The imagery suggests that even without its leaves, the tree is endless. Mosiah 16:8-9 tells us that "there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory. . . . [He is] a life which is endless, that there can be no more death." The very color of the evergreen signifies lifeÂ*-the evergreen never loses its color or needles, thereby signifying its eternal nature.

Jesus himself declared that he was the true vine, and the Father the husbandman (John 15:1). The symbolism appears to be the same in this instance as if it were a deciduous tree. The tree represents the Axis Mundi:

The transformation of the tree into a pillar or pole brings about a shift of symbolic meaning. The foliage is that part of the tree which responds to change. Stripping the tree of this foliage reveals its changeless centre; the vertical axis around which the visible world of the tree revolves. For the cosmic tree reflects not only the endless regeneration of the cosmos but also its undying centre.

[Justice]

If you read Alma in particular, and pay very close attention to when he uses yea, it becomes clear he uses it to restate and clarify the same topic. It shouldn't be a surprise that the bread and water represent Jesus Christ, but a lot of people say that the tree does not. You seem to be willing to go far enough to say that the tree represents Jesus Christ and not just the vague "love of God."

I'm just going to randomly grab places where Alma uses "yea." I'm going to randomly scan each chapter until I see a yea and post it.

Speaking of Nehor, Alma said:

Alma 1:

7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Alma 2:

12 Therefore the people of the Nephites were aware of the intent of the Amlicites, and therefore they did prepare to meet them; yea, they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows, and with stones, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons of war, of every kind.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Here's a double whammie:

Alma 3:

13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Alma 4:

4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.

Again, same deal.

Keep on going all through Alma. I read ALL of Alma recently and each and every time he uses yea it is for clarification of the same topic. Other authors in the Book of Mormon use it for different reasons, many like you say, but as I said, Alma only used it one way... each and every time: to restate the same thing differently to help us understand what he was talking about. In fact, if Alma uses "yea" for any other reason I would like for someone to post it for me because when I read it I missed it.

So, again, Alma 5:34 sheds new light on "fruit" and "bread and water" if what I'm saying is true.

[Justice]

Oh, in the vision of the tree of Life the fruit of the tree that they partook of literally IS Jesus Christ, and we must eat of His flesh to get to the seeds, which represent eternal life.

Can you see how a seed (or seeds) can represent eternal life? Seeds are also compared to the word of God, which also represent eternal life. Seeds are also compared to offspring, which also represent eternal life.

Now read Alma 32 and listen as Alma and Amulek explain to the poor Zoramites how to use a seed and plant it in your heart, how to nourish it, and how to make it grow.

What I'm studying now is how literally the tree of life in the Garden of Eden represented JEsus Christ, and how literally it's opposite, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was it's opposite, and how literally it represented His opposite, or Satan. When Adam and Eve "partook" of that fruit they fell. They fell by yielding to Satan. I'm confident there is something there. They had to repent before they could again partake of the tree of life, and in that light review the vision of the tree of life very carefully... with the watwers of life separating the tree of life from pride.

It's like an onion, or layers of the same teaching.

[Justice]

The great opposites in God's wisdom are repentance and pride.

Since those who are prideful do not partake of the fruit, and those who repent do, then the "Waters of Life," or the living waters, are what stand between pride and grabbing the word of God (iron rod, or bread of life). Notice in their vision of the tree of life that the stream of living waters that runs next to the rod of iron is between the rod and the great and spacious building. The waters of life symbolism baptism, among other things. And, baptism is the entrance way to the straight and narrow, which is following the spirit.

Now, let me try to write like Alma and paraphrase the vision...

Yea, those who do not humble themselves, but remain in their pride, are not baptized and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

God has used many different themes, analogies, parables, symbols, and allegories to teach us the same thing... repentance.

The Sacrament is an opportunity for us to offer a broken heart and contrite spirit.

Broken heart is symbolized by the broken bread.

Contrite spirit is symbolized by the water.

The words of both prayers, when carefully compared, affirm these great truths.

We know what "broken heart" means. It means that one feels godly sorrow for their sins, and they desire to be forgiven for them. This can best be described as being humble.

But, do we really understand what it leads to? Do we understand what a "contrite spirit" is?

www.dictionary.com

con·trite /kənˈtraɪt,

–adjective

1. caused by or showing sincere remorse.

2. filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner.

I'd like to suggest that "penitent" is the clearest definition of contrite.

GS Broken Heart

To have a broken heart is to be humble, contrite, repentant, and meek—that is, receptive to the will of God.

I dwell with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, Isa. 57: 15. Christ offered himself for those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, 2 Ne. 2: 7. Offer for sacrifice unto the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, 3 Ne. 9: 20 (D&C 59: 8). Only those with broken hearts and contrite spirits are received unto baptism, Moro. 6: 2. Jesus was crucified for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart, D&C 21: 9. He whose spirit is contrite is accepted, D&C 52: 15. The Holy Spirit is promised to those who are contrite, D&C 55: 3. My Spirit is sent forth to enlighten the humble and contrite, D&C 136: 33.

The scriptures use the phrase "baptism unto repentance." This is the general idea I'm trying to get across.

My big question is how does the flesh of the Savior (represented by the bread) symbolize repentance? I'm still working on that one. My first thought is that it is keeping a commandment (ordinance) that we don't fully understand, nor has it been revealed, so we can exercise and strengthen our faith. That's kinda "primary-ish" but it's all I've got so far. But, it also symbolizes repentance in that we have to repent (bread) before we can have the spirit (water), and we have to eat the bread (or feast on the word of God), to have the spirit with us.

There's more to it, I need to search more.

[Hemidakota]

Oh, in the vision of the tree of Life the fruit of the tree that they partook of literally IS Jesus Christ, and we must eat of His flesh to get to the seeds, which represent eternal life.

Can you see how a seed (or seeds) can represent eternal life? Seeds are also compared to the word of God, which also represent eternal life. Seeds are also compared to offspring, which also represent eternal life.

Now read Alma 32 and listen as Alma and Amulek explain to the poor Zoramites how to use a seed and plant it in your heart, how to nourish it, and how to make it grow.

What I'm studying now is how literally the tree of life in the Garden of Eden represented JEsus Christ, and how literally it's opposite, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was it's opposite, and how literally it represented His opposite, or Satan. When Adam and Eve "partook" of that fruit they fell. They fell by yielding to Satan. I'm confident there is something there. They had to repent before they could again partake of the tree of life, and in that light review the vision of the tree of life very carefully... with the watwers of life separating the tree of life from pride.

It's like an onion, or layers of the same teaching.

The reason why I bring this up is due to something that Lehi saw in a vision, I also saw the same. I not trying being conceited here, just pointing out something that I had observed. .

[iMHO] I can understand why you believe it to be so when we read many times throughout the scriptures referencing the Savior as the bread and water of life.

[Hemidakota]

If you read Alma in particular, and pay very close attention to when he uses yea, it becomes clear he uses it to restate and clarify the same topic. It shouldn't be a surprise that the bread and water represent Jesus Christ, but a lot of people say that the tree does not. You seem to be willing to go far enough to say that the tree represents Jesus Christ and not just the vague "love of God."

I'm just going to randomly grab places where Alma uses "yea." I'm going to randomly scan each chapter until I see a yea and post it.

Speaking of Nehor, Alma said:

Alma 1:

7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Alma 2:

12 Therefore the people of the Nephites were aware of the intent of the Amlicites, and therefore they did prepare to meet them; yea, they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows, and with stones, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons of war, of every kind.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Here's a double whammie:

Alma 3:

13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads.

Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic.

Alma 4:

4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.

Again, same deal.

Keep on going all through Alma. I read ALL of Alma recently and each and every time he uses yea it is for clarification of the same topic. Other authors in the Book of Mormon use it for different reasons, many like you say, but as I said, Alma only used it one way... each and every time: to restate the same thing differently to help us understand what he was talking about. In fact, if Alma uses "yea" for any other reason I would like for someone to post it for me because when I read it I missed it.

So, again, Alma 5:34 sheds new light on "fruit" and "bread and water" if what I'm saying is true.

There is about 502 entries throughout the scriptures that uses this word "YEA".

[Guest tomk]

Obedience raises the signal flag. "This person is ready for more."

It is the only way God can extend His grace without violating our sacred agency. When He blesses us due to obedience, our agency is left intact. Under any other circumstances, God would end-up doing something against our will.

[Guest tomk]

Bread is a staff of life. A staple. Almost anywhere you go, you can find bread being consumed by pretty much everyone.

Christ is the Bread of Life. He desires to be that "staple" in our life. The ubiquitous source which we depend upon for life.

Trees describe the maturation process. When fully mature the TREE itself bears fruit (eternal seed). When fully mature, that TREE is the embodiment of CHARITY (Christ).

[Justice]

There is about 502 entries throughout the scriptures that uses this word "YEA".

Yes, but Alma is the one speaking. It only matters how he uses it. I noted every time he used it and he used it the same way every time.

Not only is the bread and water of life referencing the Savior, but so is fruit. The fruit of the tree of life is the Savior. Nothing else represents the love of God so completely as The Father giving The Son to the world.

Good points Tom. Obedience is always preceded by repentance. In fact, repentance is the changing of our will to His will. When we follow His will we are obedient.