Eve's sin upon all women?

[Justice]

To add to that line of thought...

I have considered this before and thought maybe Lucifer thought Adam still would not partake of the fruit after Eve did, and thereby destroying God's plan... along with their marriage.

It's worth considering, anyway... since someone else brought it up. LOL

[WANDERER]

Travellers point of view on the Eve thing came up frequently when I stopped googling Curse of Eve and swapped to women and equality in the church type searches...thus the thinking of don't do stuff before consulting with your hubby is usually there in various forms.

Yep Eve could have gone running to God AFTER eating the apple and that might have canned the marriage....goodness knows Justice.

But I'm thinking more along the lines of Eve shrieking Snake, Snake...an angel with a flaming sword or two and a long discussion with God about *what was that thing?*. If God meant for the apple to be eaten then other scenarios are also possible. The Garden of Eden, knowing no good or evil, just doing....wasn't that the way satan wanted it...so why get Eve to eat the apple...? To stuff up the real apple eating plan? So we have an all things work together for good type scenario?

It's a mental game of snakes and ladders....the whole lot of Eve theories. If we accept all of the premises inherrent, then Eve has been handed a lot of snakes and Adam all of the ladders. This plan has never been an equal opportunity one...Eve can only be like Heavenly Father to a certain extent......at least according to the understandings of delineated male and female roles . One might say progression for women is limited in heaven as it is on earth and amen. Something is missing in this picture and it isn't the idea that equity equals inequity. I find the whole premise a distortion of what is meant to be. 'Things must be as they are' is twaddle because....

How can one be equal and unequal at the same time, since in Christ all are equal?

Today we know that male and female nervous systems can be as different as male and female bodies, that already at birth women are (statistically speaking) more relational and less aggressive, and in the adult male there is more specialization of the cerebral hemispheres, while in the woman a more developed corpus callosum allows for greater interhemispheric coordination. Precisely because there is such a relationship it is important that women are not excluded from equal decision making processes at any level.

I can't help thinking that we all still chewing on the bad side of the apple whenever we attempt to present inequity as a greater good for all and divinely endorsed. Either we all are partakers of grace and mercy or we are not.

"A custom without truth is ancient error."

Edited September 26, 2008 by WANDERER

[WANDERER]

Okay ...this gives a very wide sweep at the problem...even if it doesn't quite address it.

The Place of Mormon Women: Perceptions, Prozac, Polygamy, Priesthood, Patriarchy, and Peace

Source: fairlds.org (Hey, it's faith promoting).

What a pity that it doesn't really answer any of Valerie Hudson's questions quoted at the beginning of the article:

How can one reconcile gender equality in the gospel with the impression that men appear to have more power than women because of their ordination to the Priesthood? How can one reconcile the early Church practice of polygamy with equal valuation of men and women? Why do scriptures seem to be about men only, with little or no reference to women? Why are we asked to live a patriarchal order, and what does this mean for those eternal beings, who, because of gender, will never be patriarchs? Will the inequality experienced here in fallen mortality continue on into eternity? What is the role of women in Zion and in the celestial kingdom? How do men and women stand before God?

The Fair article ends with a classic quote which I cut and pasted for your viewing pleasure: After you die...things will get better: F for fail. It's hard to match the method of logical construction and mental gymnastics that it took to link the above quote to the concluding quote.

For Apostle James E. Talmage, this hope for ultimate and eternal gender equality must extend to the next life, for "Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of a righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."95 And then our hopes for eternal and divine gender equality will be ultimately and completely fulfilled, as righteous daughters and sons of God discover the embracing love of Jesus Christ and salvation in his kingdom.

What I do love about the Fair article is that it dismisses insulting explanations:

The answers should not divide women into the two camps of "faithful women" who accept their prescribed roles without question, and "those apostate feminists" who challenge the very foundations of Church authority and priesthood ordination.

Most valid studies reject the trite folkloric responses of "Men may be the heads of their families, but women are the necks that turn the heads." And "I do hold the Priesthood-every night in bed." Perhaps less flippant, but still damagingly simplistic, are the common cultural responses of "Why would women want the priesthood? They have enough to do already." Or "Women have the built-in ability to be Christlike, while men need all the help they can get." These responses only further divert the serious question at hand by perpetuating gender stereotypes and shallow simplifications.

Wow, AND this article even tells you what many women should think about it all:

However, Mormon women still seek ways of negotiating their gendered experiences within their established institution; of course, they deny any outside pressure to reject their religion outright, because "if the feminist message is posited in a strict polarity between feminism and traditional religion, making women think they have to choose between the two, then many of the world's women will choose their religion

And hello....

This paper is an admittedly apologist response to the question of Mormon women's so-called oppression

Yep. Worth reading anyway as the author is most apologetic ...

Edited September 26, 2008 by WANDERER

[Dove]

Hello, Wanderer,

Thank you for suggesting the article, The Place of Mormon Women: Perceptions, Prozac, Polygamy, Priesthood, Patriarchy, and Peace. I appreciate that it didn't straight out attack Mormonism, or it's women for believing as we do.

Wanderer, you bring up so many hard hitting points for me, points I've pondered about in the issues of a patriarchal order. Thank you, because what you're bringing up is causing me to reflect on, and realize, how deeply this affects my perception of myself in our society today.

I've had a lot of thoughts come to mind as I've read your threads. I feel at a loss as to how to express them well. But, here goes...:)

My dad loved power and authority. He was almost cliche in his abuse of his priesthood. One thing he liked to do was "preach." He would start out talking about a particular point. Then he would begin to expound on it. Then he would become more and more emphatic about it. He could whip himself up into a frenzy of tears and gestures with his voice escalating in its emphasis on what he was talking about. It was quite a show~and we were his unfortunate, captive audience.

I was blessed to realize that it really wasn't about whatever his point was. He was using that point as a catalyst for taking the center of attention and aggrandizing himself to whatever audience he could get. This realization on his behaviour gave me a unique view of the priesthood authority~While it would seem natural for me to resent his "authority" as the priesthood holder, I could forgive that in knowing that it didn't matter what supposed authority he took unto himself, that wasn't the point. It was really all about him feeding his ego.

To me, this is the direct opposite of what Christ taught. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." His teachings on charity, humililty, meekness, and His willingness to live His teachings by giving His life for each of us, gives me a clearer view of the purpose of the priesthood~The priesthood, or the authority to "act in God's name and with His power," is given to serve. It is to help others along their journey home. While it's usage is manifested through roles of leadership, the very nature of it's author (Christ) makes it's true intent nothing less than altruistic. And while, from a secular point of view, the very "prominent" roles of leadership would seem more desirable, and therefore of greater value, this is not at all in keeping with the spirt of the gospel of Christ. This is not a gospel about "me, me, me," rather it is a gospel of "we." I refer to the great intercessory prayer given by the Saviour in John, and also to the unification of the people under King Benjamin~Mosiah 2-5.

There is no doubt the differing roles between the sexes in Mormonism are highly delineated. There is also current counsel to embrace the roles given to each sex without exchanging one for the other. I have no explanation or defense of this.

I again acknowledge my choice. Both roles are defined by their service to others. In the males' role, they are designated as the "bread winners." They are asked to leave the home to work in order to support their wife and children. Women are asked to be the nurturer's and to rear their children with Christ like love. When it comes right down to it, I would so much rather be the one to raise and nurture my children, rather than having to leave for other services.

I also acknowledge that, while I may prefer the role of motherhood, unfortunately were it otherwise, I would not have the choice to choose fatherhood given my gender. But, I believe that at some point I may very well have chosen my gender and the role that went along with it.

This is my two cents worth.

I'm curious Wanderer, you have said that you are not a member of the LDS church. Then, why is this important to you? You realize that women throughout the ages for the most part have been in patriarchal societies. What about our particular religion draws you to it? Do you believe in a Supreme Being, and do you view Him/Her as God? I'm just wondering your come from, with no offense intended.

Dove

[richlittell]

Wanderer,

In the Celestial kingdom we will be priests and priestesses and no one has defined what those roles would be but I expect that means a lot of authority and power for women. We will all have the mind and heart of Christ in the Celestial Kingdom and Heavenly Father has promised us that we could never really achieve a full happiness in any other kingdom. I'm sure we all, women and men alike, will be ecstatic to be with our Savior for all eternity regardless of what roles we play.

What is equality anyway? It's overrated. Is any man "equal" to any other man? There is inequality among all of us regardless of gender. And as I understand it, there are three orders in the Celestial Kingdom which implies that even the roles among men may not all be of equal status, or equality in duty or what have you. And whose to say that women my have some authority over menn and women of a lesser order.

All these are really issues of no import. What is important is living worthily so that we may all return to our Heavenly Father, and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ who each have sacrificed all for us and whose very existence is for the sole purpose of our happiness and salvation.

I didn't read this article below but came across it while doing a search. Someone might enjoy it.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Unrighteous Dominion

.

Edited September 26, 2008 by richlittell

[Dove]

Thank you, Rich, for the article. It was quite informative and helpful to understand the appropriate use of the priesthood authority, especially within the home. It was good to read it.

[WANDERER]

The thing is....I didn't know anything about LDS beliefs before I joined this site...zero really. So the great thing was to identify with a lot of liberating beliefs. Yes....there is a lot of truth to be found. It's been an interesting discussion.

But the idea of a polygamous GOD kind of stuffs up with my head and my faith. It's there in LDS beliefs, like it or not....even if you want to believe it is a polygamous god rather than GOD and merely a matter of personal choice. It didn't occur to me that it was interlaid in all other beliefs...it's not practiced/revelation is different now so I put it on the shelf I think, which was a mistake...so now I am trying to adjust to that little piece of information.Yep, there will definitely be polygamists in heaven...and if progression is also just as it is...multiple heavenly mothers are also an inherrent belief...whether in this case or not. Would it bother me so much if women were accorded the same choices....is it a matter of devaluing parenting roles for women and valueing parenting roles for men above that? Does it devalue any personal relationship that God has with women and accord more value to any personal relationship that God has with men? In this life? Imbalanced love? Based on gender alone? This life is important....core element of faith.

Anyway...should this be an issue for me? Basically I'm not LDS. As absurd as it is...if I accept many other beliefs and this concept underlies them...how do I restructure my personal foundation of faith? Have I been rejecting core truths for what I want to hear when I nod my head at LDS doctrine.

Yes the FAIR article presents both sides and I begin to realise a shared sadness between women of the LDS faith and those of the Islamic faith: polygamy, clothing, priesthood....faith under attack. Concepts of family under attack.

One of the great ironies I think is that the LDS faith occurred in a time where women were tackling the challenge of having spiritual revelation and the right to preach and take more active roles in their churches...and quite often LDS women had more rights than women of other churches...they had Relief Society...they were allowed to annoint with oil etc. I don't presume an involvement in priesthood in the past...but perhaps a bit more flexibility that eventually disappeared....whatever the reasons for it were at the time...I think women of the time were very much in line with male priesthood authority and that it was simply a matter of ..it was allowed.

My take on women through the ages and patriarchal societies....I'm so blessed to live in this day and age. I think we are all very aware of what happens when patriarchal protection is non-existent in a partriarchal society. Does anyone ever want to see that in it's most orthodox form? Do LDS women *really* inhabit a partiarchal society? No....would it be petulant of me to think that perhaps they should...before finding fault with the advantages that they are provided with as a result of the changes in laws. But, that really isn't a productive response now is it, and I think, the worst kind of response. For with those changes there have been both good and bad results...both empowering and disempowering (as many stay at home mums can attest to). Nor do we live in a society that is *not* patriarchal. We navigate that as best we can with our personal choices and hope for the best outcomes...for all. When will we ever grow up enough to realise that us is them...what we do to each other we do to ourselves...and never is that more true than in a family unit. We bless others as we are blessed. The FAIR article is a complete miss on that level.

So on reading the article and considering my views...is this unrighteous domination of other women who find fulfillment and spirituality within their roles. Yes. And no. Somewhere in the middle of this thread I had a zero reaction...the one you get when you are just numbed by a sudden realisation...so in essence I have been working out where I stand. However, no...I don't see it as something that I can believe in and support...and...so...I'm obviously not LDS material. Do I throw out the whole lot, embrace what is good and discard what I cannot support...and all that. Do I quietly drop off the forum and admit that this was not one of my better ideas...do I realise there's a lot to be said for not being unevenly yoked ...or realise that perhaps a bit of challenge is essential for faith and from that we have growth however uncomfortable it may be at the time. I'm not going to get answers to those questions any time soon. And how is inviting such things into my life beneficial... and if not....?

This thread is a blanket invitation I guess of a sort...to try and find those answers. While it may seem like an attack response I had to laugh at reading the latest scientific study that says people are actually more open to other views and feel less threatened after declaring their own. Perhaps.

Erk to all of the above. What actually makes the best sense at the moment is doing other stuff...while I work out where I stand: interesting question Dove...Do I believe in God? Answer a) a different one OR answer b) atheism is preferable to unrighteous dominion OR c) I'm happy with this: righteous domination is good.

Which option do you choose? Currently I'm choosing knitting.

[richlittell]

...

Which option do you choose? Currently I'm choosing knitting.

I think that's a good choice. :)

Your responses and perspective are appreciated. You are very, and I think, sincerely thoughtful about all of this. I do think people outside the church maybe can't see it for what it really is, this whole priesthood thing, I think it is a matter of little importance, though. If we focus on salvation and our relationship with Christ all other things seem trivial, though the world would make them seem colossal.

If you have any further questions, post them. Of course, we can only answer from an LDS perspective. Do keep in mind, however, that a large, and maybe largest percentage of our faith are converts. Many of us have been where you are, have been of the world and philosophies of men (women), and of other faiths as well, so while we may not agree on all things, we can understand your perspective.

sincerely,

rich

[Dove]

Hello, Wanderer~

Wow, a lot of deep thinking going on, you seem to have so much going through your mind. Thanks for sharing your points of view and your struggles.

Well, I would respond with, yes, I do believe in a Heavenly Father and Mother; however, out of respect to my belief in the LDS church, I have only addressed Heavenly Father, even if at times this has been done in bitter disagreement that Mother could not be put into that mix.

I believe in the Heavenly Father of the LDS church for many different reasons. But I feel to cut to the chase and tell you the binding reasons for my belief in a patriarchal church.

For how deeply it has served me. For all those priesthood blessings that I knew were divinely directed by God, and not the person giving the blessing to me. For the direction I have received in my life over and over again about various choices I have made. For the Gift of the Holy Ghost I received at baptism from the hands of those that were appointed to give this gift. For how many times every day the Holy Ghost talks to me. For God holding me to the covenants I have made at baptism and in the temple. For knowing that the covenants I have made are authentic and bind me to God. Whatever else is said, I know that God works in my life through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. That it is real. I do believe that the priesthood really is His power from Heaven, and not man-made. This is why I stay. This is why I'm okay with the patriarchal order~that it is real and shows up in my life on a very core level.

I'm so sorry if you are begining to question your dealings here. I hope I haven't left you with an unwelcome feeling. Sometimes I have wondered your intent with all your questions and points of view. I'm sorry. It is good to know that you are taking this seriously, too~That you are willing to be honest and vulnerable in your posts and are posing your earnest concerns, rather than just disputing for the sake of dispute.

I would invite you to start with the basics, if you would like. Lay aside the concern of polygamy for a little while. Pray, and ask God if He is real, and what His attributes are. Find out what your relationship to Him is. Ask for His love to come into your life, and develop the trust to follow His guidance. I believe this is as much about the experience of God as it is the logic and reasoning of His existence. Read about the Book of Mormon, and pray about it truthfulness.

I follow God because of how powerful a role He plays in my heart, my thought and feelings. I know when He is talking to me, I feel it so strongly. When I follow His guidance, I am at peace, when I don't, good does not follow. Feeling His love and His power in my life is important to me, because that's where, again, I feel peace and happiness. A sense that all will be okay, that I'm okay, and that He loves me profoundly. That He knows me far more deeply than I even know myself. That He will work on my behalf with pleasure.

I'm okay with polygamy, because I believe it is a tool for procreation rather than a tool to show more love. I believe God loves all equally, His wife (wives), daughters and sons. That marriage is not loving someone more than another in His realm, but about Him fulfilling His divine purpose in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is my opinion.

I believe my equality is inherent, that I am His daughter, and beloved as such. No one can take this equality from me, it just is. Whether or not I live true to it is my choice, no one elses. There is so much for me to learn and do as a woman, that is worthwhile and valuable. I find that innate sense of worth and value through Him. That is so real to me.

I hope this helps and want to extend my friendship and support to you. Thank you so much for your postings and of the articles, they have got me to thinking and learning too!

Dove

[WANDERER]

Dove thanks for sharing your testimony. It's great that things are working out for you with it all and I wish you all the best.

[Nappaljarri]

Erk to all of the above. What actually makes the best sense at the moment is doing other stuff...while I work out where I stand: interesting question Dove...Do I believe in God? Answer a) a different one OR answer b) atheism is preferable to unrighteous dominion OR c) I'm happy with this: righteous domination is good.

Which option do you choose? Currently I'm choosing knitting.

All of your questions are answered by the doctrine of agency Wanderer. We have a choice to believe in God or not. I testify to you that I know he exists and I invite you to ask him yourself if he exists.

He will answer you whether you listen or not. You can think that all of this talk is just philosophy from good/interesting humans (I'd hope you view us as) and that you can take it as a grain of salt, or you can desire to believe that maybe we know something and you would like to truely know it too. It's all up to you.

If you get past that part. The doctrine of agency also answers all the rest of your questions. If this church is Christ's church and you find that part out. Then all that is taught therein is true. If this is the case, and you believe, then all you need to know is that God has set his law. It is infinte, his purposes are eternal and will make us happy if we follow them. And to become like God we need to follow them. It is up to you (and me and everyone indiviually) to choose to act in the sphere of his commandments, so that we can eventually become as he is. This takes faith and our agency (the freedom to choose).

I hope these thoughts help.

[Hemidakota]

The only thing I wonder about it is.... why neither of them consulted with God prior to decisionmaking on the whole apple thing. This would seem the most logical thing to do.

I fail to see why the term APPLE was used. If any thing, why not the FIG. Fig leaves is a great indication why Lucifer used them to show both Adam and Eve did partake of the fruit.

[Hemidakota]

The only thing I wonder about it is.... why neither of them consulted with God prior to decisionmaking on the whole apple thing. This would seem the most logical thing to do.

Another good point to ask them when we are living on the otherside of the veil.

[Justice]

When you were 2 or 3 years old, and had little, if any, understaning of good and evil, or what open rebellion meant, did you ask your dad for counsel on something he asked you not to do?

Don't touch that stove, it's hot and you will get burned.

What kind of counsel do you need with such basic commands?

When you touched the stove, was it out of curiosity, or did you do it to rebel against your dad?