Book of Mormon

[Guest ceeboo]

Misshlafway,:)

Was that me banging my head (:))

I didn't even get to the " merit " part you offered.:)

You know Misshalfway, I must tell you, I do not know of a better place than this ( an LDS site ) to have these thoughts of LDS exchanged. I do not know why members can not have these discussions with Non LDS without seemingly getting so upset.

FYI, I often go on a Catholic forum and many " non believers " ask lots of questions pertaining to my faith or reasons I believe what I do. I never get upset, rather I try and offer reasons as to why I believe them.

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

" You are trying to argue the merits of the BofM "

" You can't wait until someone will actually discuss the actual text and the doctrine in the pages rather than dance around it "

Okay my friend, I will not dance around a discussion of merit or doctrine.:

You say you want to discuss the actual doctrine ( teachings ) of BofM. Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about eternal progression? Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about Jesus Christ being the " spirit brother" of Lucifer? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that men can become Gods? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that God once was mere man of an earth before he became God of ours?

Why are none of these teachings ( doctrine ) mentioned or supported by the very book ( BofM ) that claims to fullfill the Gospel in its etirity??

God bless,

Carl

Ok. This is an interesting response. And I am trying to decide how to receive it. You aren't talking about the BofM itself. You are challenging us with ..... what the book isn't??

I can't decide in my mind if you really want answers and that you are willing to understand those answers or if you are just reading anti and you are coming armed with these ideas. You do seem intent on rejecting every explanation so far and this post just seems to feel sarcastic in its undertones.

If you genuinely want to understand the divine origins of the BoM and its purpose and what it does teach, I would be happy to address your concerns and try to share with you those details. If you have another agenda other than understanding, I am sure others will go the rounds with you. I won't be available for that kind of dialogue.

I would much rather discuss how Joseph got the record and from whom. I would like to discuss the chain of events that lead up to its translation and I would like to see the Book weighed on its on merits and upon the doctrine it does contain, not against what it isn't or what someone thinks it should be.

From what you did write, I can see that you may not understand what the Book of Mormon is or how we view continuous revelation and the discovery of eternal truth. If I understood your intent, perhaps I could know better how to respond.

[Misshalfway]

Misshlafway,:)

Was that me banging my head (:))

I didn't even get to the " merit " part you offered.:)

You know Misshalfway, I must tell you, I do not know of a better place than this ( an LDS site ) to have these thoughts of LDS exchanged. I do not know why members can not have these discussions with Non LDS without seemingly getting so upset.

FYI, I often go on a Catholic forum and many " non believers " ask lots of questions pertaining to my faith or reasons I believe what I do. I never get upset, rather I try and offer reasons as to why I believe them.

God bless,

Carl

I am not upset. I thought maybe you would take it that way. That is why I resubmitted a more thoughtful response.

Just not really knowing quite how read you. Help me. I am teachable and with new information I can learn how best to help you understand.

[Guest ceeboo]

Ok. This is an interesting response. And I am trying to decide how to receive it. You aren't talking about the BofM itself. You are challenging us with ..... what the book isn't??

I can't decide in my mind if you really want answers and that you are willing to understand those answers or if you are just reading anti and you are coming armed with these ideas. You do seem intent on rejecting every explanation so far and this post just seems to feel sarcastic in its undertones.

If you genuinely want to understand the divine origins of the BoM and its purpose and what it does teach, I would be happy to address your concerns and try to share with you those details. If you have another agenda other than understanding, I am sure others will go the rounds with you. I won't be available for that kind of dialogue.

I would much rather discuss how Joseph got the record and from whom. I would like to discuss the chain of events that lead up to its translation and I would like to see the Book weighed on its on merits and upon the doctrine it does contain, not against what it isn't or what someone thinks it should be.

From what you did write, I can see that you may not understand what the Book of Mormon is or how we view continuous revelation and the discovery of eternal truth. If I understood your intent, perhaps I could know better how to respond.

HMMMM, Ceboo anti ???, No, Ceboo Catholic, which leads to no other possible option other than not believing the same as you concerning the BofM ( otherwise I would be LDS )

How to take Ceboo?? well, I think I have tried to be very transparent as to not mislead you or others that I am indeed Catholic ( obviously meaning I do not believe the LDS claims ) so if that makes me " anti " in your eyes than I guess it is what it is.

You see, I have ben on the other side of this sharing ( I mentioned to you a couple of posts ago that I frequent Catholic forums as well ) and I can not imagine a time when I felt a need to " figure out " who I was talking to in order to share my beliefs with others.. When others have questioned me on the NT or teachings of the Catholic Church, I simply answer them ( if I can ) and let the chips fall where they may.

I did not think my question " why are the teachings of LDS not found or supported by the very BofM that was calimed to be the fullfilled everlasting Gosepel " was anti at all, the question was coming from a Catholic, someone who does not believe. It was a simple question and it should have been ( I would think ) a simple answer.

You feel I don't know what the BofM is?? Is it not the claimed Fullfilled and everlasting Gosepel of Jesus Christ???

God bless,

Carl

[August]

skalenfehl Wrote, " He is the source of all truth and if we are willing to sincerely seek that truth "

There you have it, " sincerely seek the truth " and not just to gain points.

Do you think we would have any reason to Lie to you, what would we gain from that.

I don't think you have any reason to lie, but neither do Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Seiks, Buddhists, Lutherans, Oneness Pentacostles or Unitarians. Yet all those groups have vastly different interpretations of God. All those groups have faith, but you would say that they are wrong, or missing part of the truth. What makes you right and them wrong? How do you know people in other religions haven't prayed to know if their religion is right?

If I wanted to gain points, there are dozens of anti-Mormon sites I could go to, I'm here because I sincerely want to understand what you believe.

[Guest ceeboo]

If I wanted to gain points, there are dozens of anti-Mormon sites I could go to, I'm here because I sincerely want to understand what you believe.

Hi August,

I, also, am here for the same reason.

I must tell you ( I'm sure this will not be taken very well ) that I am having a real hard time getting any answers to my questions. As a review of the last couple of pages of posts on this thread would certainly seem to validate.

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

I didn't say you were anti. Please don't mis- read my words. You said I didn't understand you. I perhaps misunderstood that too. Well, I seem to be saying all the wrong things....yet again.....please forgive me for not letting the chips fall where they may. Let me try again.

The Book of Mormon was PART of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the re-establishment of the kingdom of God on the earth. The Book is a record of another group who testified and talked of Christ and his gospel. It is a record of their dealings and their spiritual history. It is meant to be the keystone of our religion and part of our foundation. It is not meant to be the whole of it.

Joseph Smith received many revelations thru out his life. He was visited by God, Jesus, and many prophets of old. Some of his most important revelations that do flesh out doctrine and the operations of the church were compiled into what we call the Doctrine and Covenants. The D&C is a wonderful look at how God guided Joseph to establish this church. You can see how God was trying to teach Joseph and others and frequently Joseph is corrected or promised with more knowledge. You see, we believe that we can ask any question to God and that he will teach us the truth. Joseph asked a lot of questions and as time went on he received more and more answers.

We believe that we lived before we came here. We believe that we are all spirit children of God the Father and that Jesus was his first born son in the pre-earth life. Lucifer was at one time a "sun of the morning". He is not only a brother of Jesus, but of all of us. He made some choices that cost him dearly and he became fallen and what he is today.....the devil.

The idea of "gods" can be studied in certain places in the Doctrine and Covenants and in the Pearl of Great Price (writings of Moses and Abraham). This an eternal progression go hand in hand.

The idea of God and his eternal origins is primarily found in the King Follet Discourse. This topic I think has been covered at length -- for this, I will default to other threads.

The Book of Mormon is for the convincing of the Jew and the Gentile of the divinity of Christ and deals with many core doctrines such as Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, Coming to Christ, overcoming sin and desires of the flesh, Gathering of Israel, and the actual account of Christ visiting America. It is evidence that God still reveals his mysteries and activities on this earth to his servants the prophets.

And now I must go.....not touching the chips! No not me! Hands off the chips!!! That is my new motto! :)

[jazzy225]

You say you want to discuss the actual doctrine ( teachings ) of BofM. Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about eternal progression? Can you tell me where in the BofM Jesus teaches ( doctrine ) about Jesus Christ being the " spirit brother" of Lucifer? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that men can become Gods? Can you tell me where in the BofM that Jesus teaches that God once was mere man of an earth before he became God of ours?

Why are none of these teachings ( doctrine ) mentioned or supported by the very book ( BofM ) that claims to fullfill the Gospel in its etenrity??

I was kind of hoping you would address CeeBoo's questions? It seems when a direct question gets asked, the subject gets change or redirected..This is what is frustrating to us non-lds. We ask a question, lds don't like it, then start slinging the "Anti" label. How about just answering the questions.

[Guest ceeboo]

Joseph Smith received many revelations thru out his life. He was visited by God, Jesus, and many prophets of old. Some of his most important revelations that do flesh out doctrine and the operations of the church were compiled into what we call the Doctrine and Covenants. The D&C is a wonderful look at how God guided Joseph to establish this church.

The Book of Mormon is for the convincing of the Jew and the Gentile of the divinity of Christ and deals with many core doctrines such as Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, Coming to Christ, overcoming sin and desires of the flesh, Gathering of Israel, and the actual account of Christ visiting America. It is evidence that God still reveals his mysteries and activities on this earth to his servants the prophets.

And now I must go.....not touching the chips! No not me! Hands off the chips!!! That is my new motto! :)

Misshalfway,

First, I LOVE YOUR NEW MOTTO " hands of the chips ":):)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for the answers you have shared with me.:)

A couple further questions, if I may.

How do LDS determine which prophetized teachings are " Doctrine and Conenants " and which are not??? ( A very dangerous road IMHO, considering that the living prophet is trumped ) One example of this is the King Follet ( BTW many of the LDS members on this board consider it Doctrine and others offer if JS said it, consider it Doctrine.

Also, the Mormon encyclodedia says " The King Follet teaching is one of Joseph Smith's GREATEST sermons BECAUSE OF ITS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS".

Your second part you offer as to what the BofM is ( other than the " visited America " and " Living Prophets ") sounds an awfull lot like a Catholic:):), see we are closer than you might think:):)

God bless,

Carl

[skalenfehl]

Dear August and Ceeboo.

Yes, many other religions also claim to be true. This is the very reason each person is challenged to ask the Lord directly. We are simply witnesses. Yes we claim to have the truth as do other faiths, however it is not our intention to force it upon anyone, only to witness of it so that others, who don't have that tangible witness from God may be prompted to seek out that firm testimony for themselves, thus removing any doubt. It is our individual witnesses that verify the truthfulness as a collective to the world. Our purpose is not to criticize truths found in other churches, religions and faiths, but only to add to them in full with the fullness of the gospel in our church.

The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify and verify the divinity and mission of Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and our Savior and that through Him we can be saved. As the Bible, it does not contain all of God's doctrines in their fullness, only the message of Christ's gospel. There is a difference. The point is that God will never leave man alone without a prophet and revelation to guide His children (biblical apostacy/dark times excluded).

The thing to note is that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion because if the Book of Mormon (for argument's sake) is true, and prophets were called of God to write upon gold plates their testimonies, then that means, that Joseph Smith's divine calling to bring the plates from obscurity to light is true. And if he was called of God to translate these plates and was a prophet called to restore Christ's ancient church with prophets and apostles, then by all logic and reason and truth, it is the same church and organization that Christ established while He walked the earth. Do you see the connection? One cannot be true without the other. This is what separates our church from all others.

Therefore, if the Book of Mormon is true and divinely inspired, then the revelations that Joseph Smith received, the further doctrines as found in our Doctrine and Covenants book, and the continuing revelations that our living prophet, President Monson receives are all true. That is the fundamental message of our church and what we are witnesses to. We invite others to find that witness for themselves. All we can do is try to answer questions and resolve concerns, but it is NOT our duty or responsibility to convert you. Only Father in Heaven through the power of the Holy Ghost can convert you just like Peter in the New Testament:

Matthew 16:13-17

13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Best wishes.

Edited September 23, 2008 by skalenfehl

[Misshalfway]

I was kind of hoping you would address CeeBoo's questions? It seems when a direct question gets asked, the subject gets change or redirected..This is what is frustrating to us non-lds. We ask a question, lds don't like it, then start slinging the "Anti" label. How about just answering the questions.

Yes. I am sorry I didn't answer right away. I see now that I should have. I understand those feelings and try my best to answer the best I can. Please understand too, that not all questions come with sincere desire. Sometimes they are veiled attacks or gateways to unpleasantness. And with the limits of this form of communication, it is sometimes hard to tell the difference. I hope you can appreciate that piece of the puzzle.

[Misshalfway]

A couple further questions, if I may.

How do LDS determine which prophetized teachings are " Doctrine and Conenants " and which are not??? ( A very dangerous road IMHO, considering that the living prophet is trumped ) One example of this is the King Follet ( BTW many of the LDS members on this board consider it Doctrine and others offer if JS said it, consider it Doctrine.

Also, the Mormon encyclodedia says " The King Follet teaching is one of Joseph Smith's GREATEST sermons BECAUSE OF ITS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS".

I must go. I don't have time to answer....the children are home from school. Most likely someone will answer before I return. But I will check back......

[Guest ceeboo]

Dear August and Ceeboo.

The point is that God will never leave man alone without a prophet and revelation to guide His children (biblical apostacy/dark times excluded).

Hello skalenfehl,

I think this is the first time we have spoke,:)

First, Thanks for the reply and sharing with me. ( Why did you start with Dear August and Ceeboo and not Dear Ceeboo and August ):):)

I have several things I would like to offer in return but I will just offer a few for now as to fairness to others as well as you in an opportunity to respond if you like.

Your " God will never leave man alone ( biblical apostasy excluded )" with respect, seems an enormous contradiction ( 1700 years or so of being left alone by our very creator who so loves each of us )

I would offer you that Jesus PROMISED to NEVER leave us.:):)

Your " JS and BofM returned Christ's Church back to the the authentic Church of 2000 years ago". I will give you a shot at answering a question concerning this that I have asked several times with no answer. If BofM returned the Church back to its " original " then why do no early Church writters or any Scripture anywhere seem to know what a Mormon is, let alone mention the word " Mormon " anywhere in thousands of early Church documents?? Is there any history of the word Mormon before 1820??

God bless and thanks again for your time,

Carl

Edited September 23, 2008 by ceeboo

[goofball]

Hello skalenfehl,

Your " JS and BofM returned Christ's Church back to the the authentic Church of 2000 years ago". I will give you a shot at answering a question concerning this that I have asked several times with no answer. If BofM returned the Church back to its " original " then why do no early Church writters or any Scripture anywhere seem to know what a Mormon is, let alone mention the word " Mormon " anywhere in thousands of early Church documents?? Is there any history of the word Mormon before 1820??

The Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The term Mormon being applied to Church members of the LDS church is due to the fact we believe in the Book of Mormon. Mormon was a Prophet who towards the end of his life complied the writings of the teachings of the Prophet in the Americas. I would not expect him to be mentioned in the Bible as he was on a different continent. So yes there is history of him being mentioned in the Book of Mormon but not in the Bible as he was in a land far far away

[skalenfehl]

Hello skalenfehl,

I think this is the first time we have spoke,:)

First, Thanks for the reply and sharing with me. ( Why did you start with Dear August and Ceeboo and not Dear Ceeboo and August ):):)

I don't know. I suppose it was instinctive because August initiated this topic of discussion. And hello! I've been away from the boards for a couple months because of my crazy schedule these days.

I have several things I would like to offer in return but I will just offer a few for now as to fairness to others as well as you in an opportunity to respond if you like.

Your " God will never leave man alone ( biblical apostasy excluded )" with respect, seems an enormous contradiction ( 1700 years or so of being left alone by our very creator who so loves each of us )

I would offer you that Jesus PROMISED to NEVER leave us.:):)

That is correct, however it was never He who left man. It was man who left Him. It was man who rejected Him and crucified Him. It was man who extinguished his apostles during the infancy of His church in the first century. This was prophesied by Isaiah and others, even up through the New Testament. In the Bible it was referred to as a "falling away" but Isaiah prophesied that "a great and marvelous work" would come to pass. Isaiah wrote much concerning our day.

Your " JS and BofM returned Christ's Church back to the the authentic Church of 2000 years ago". I will give you a shot at answering a question concerning this that I have asked several times with no answer. If BofM returned the Church back to its " original " then why do no early Church writters or any Scripture anywhere seem to know what a Mormon is, let alone mention the word " Mormon " anywhere in thousands of early Church documents?? Is there any history of the word Mormon before 1820??

goofball pretty much answered it. I will add that a lot was written in the Bible, and if we search with an open heart, we will truly understand that prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel saw our day and the restoration. Christ, Himself, told the Jews about other sheep, which the Jews refused to hear, so they did not receive the greater portion of His word, but it is confirmed in the Book of Mormon. Ezekiel prophesied that the stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon--descendants of the tribe of Joseph who was sold into Egypt) would come together to testify of Christ. When Christ visited the descendants of Joseph, He told them that they were the other sheep of whom He had mentioned to the Jews, and because these people were more faithful than the Jews, Christ gave them a greater portion of His word concerning them.

There are more supporting connections, but this is enough for now. I'm sure you will have more questions. There is very likely no History of the word Mormon before 1820 because the Book of Mormon had not yet been brought to light. The very purpose of the Book of Mormon is to confound those who would seek to destroy God's work. It was specifically prepared for us in the last days. The Bible alone cannot verify where the fullness of the gospel is found, but the Book of Mormon does.

[Elphaba]

The term Mormon being applied to Church members of the LDS church is due to the fact we believe in the Book of Mormon.

Actually, "Mormon" was a word the people mocking Joseph and his Church used. So the Church turned it around and took the title on for themselves. So "Mormon" did not start out with the members of the Church using it because of the BoM. But I agree they do now. Just an interesting tidbit.

Okay, I'm done.

Elphaba

[Misshalfway]

Hello skalenfehl,

Your " JS and BofM returned Christ's Church back to the the authentic Church of 2000 years ago". I will give you a shot at answering a question concerning this that I have asked several times with no answer. If BofM returned the Church back to its " original " then why do no early Church writters or any Scripture anywhere seem to know what a Mormon is, let alone mention the word " Mormon " anywhere in thousands of early Church documents?? Is there any history of the word Mormon before 1820??

The Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The term Mormon being applied to Church members of the LDS church is due to the fact we believe in the Book of Mormon. Mormon was a Prophet who towards the end of his life complied the writings of the teachings of the Prophet in the Americas. I would not expect him to be mentioned in the Bible as he was on a different continent. So yes there is history of him being mentioned in the Book of Mormon but not in the Bible as he was in a land far far away

Another thing that might help this as well is that Mormon lived in the later years of 300 ad.

[skalenfehl]

That is an noteworthy comment, Elphaba. Thank you! :)

[Misshalfway]

A couple further questions, if I may.

How do LDS determine which prophetized teachings are " Doctrine and Conenants " and which are not??? ( A very dangerous road IMHO, considering that the living prophet is trumped ) One example of this is the King Follet ( BTW many of the LDS members on this board consider it Doctrine and others offer if JS said it, consider it Doctrine.

Also, the Mormon encyclodedia says " The King Follet teaching is one of Joseph Smith's GREATEST sermons BECAUSE OF ITS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS".

Alright....let me look at this one.

I decided to read the intro to the D&C to see if I could gain any insights.....

Most of the revelations in the D&C were received by Joseph Smith, but some of the last revelations were received by subsequent prophets. These teachings were compiled and canonized at some point of our history. I am not sure the date (s). The King Follett was not an official declaration to the world. It was a sermon given at a funeral. Remember that in the LDS church, not every word that comes from a prophets lips is canonized. And remember too, I think we talked about this before, that any doctrine must be sustained or voted upon by the body of the church to become part of the canon. It isn't really voting. We call it sustaining and we do so with the raising of the right hand....or we can oppose.

OK? That doesn't mean that revelations from prophets don't have merit. We gather every six months to hear the words and counsel of our prophets and read anything we can get our hands on. :) But it is important to place certain revelations in proper context. Sermons are not necessarily the same thing as scripture. They may teach doctrine though. And if a prophet is speaking with the Spirit....new ideas can be taught as well. And as this was Joseph's calling.....the Follett isn't something to be dismissed. Keep in mind that prophets can speculate too and have in past written or spoken from those speculations. The counsel of the Twelve Apostles is there for a reason. They must come to a unanimous decision on any issue and they work towards such unity by appealing to the Spirit of the Lord to reveal the same idea to each prophet.

The King Follett discourse was very controversial at the time it was given...and it remains the same today. It has not been added to the canon, but can be studied and is often quoted from. But as with anything, we are invited to ask the Holy Spirit to teach and confirm what we read so that we can discern truth from error. Remember our prophets are not perfect.....and never claim to be. But the Spirit does and will bring us all to the unity of the faith IF we will heed the promptings. The Follett does contain many interesting doctrinal ideas and in my reading of it recently (i have read at least two versions of it this week), I see nothing that I doctrinally object to.....but imo, it inspires more questions than it answers and is greatly misunderstood maybe because those who read it don't understand it or don't understand the doctrinal foundations that precede it. It definitely requires understanding of the basics before it can be properly digested. Again, my opinion. Some start talking about the Follett and the ideas get more colorful and interesting and as some try to answer the questions that come from the discourse, the answers can't be characterized as anything but speculation....even as intelligent and logical as the assumptions may sound.

One more thing. The BofM is the fundamental and one of the first of Joseph's revelations. It was a translation of old writings and so in that way is different from the other revelations that came to Joseph. The D&C is direct, modern revelation given to Joseph and many other specific individuals involved in the early church. Some sections are like reading the actual conversations between Joseph and the Lord. Very compelling reading, IMO.

Please understand that everything hangs on the validity of the first vision, the visit of Moroni (Mormon's son, who came as an angel and told Joseph about the record), and the record itself. If God did in fact speak to Joseph, then everything else is true too. The foundations of our testimonies start with these events and the BofM. Then we move to the D&C and modern prophets that follow. The follett falls pretty far down the list....if that makes sense. I am not saying the Follett is false doctrine. I am saying that we don't know enough or haven't been taught enough by the Lord on the subject. So.....some get excited about that little peek into the eternities....while others like myself hesitate to draw conclusions concerning it.

And now you've got me dialoging.....lol....but hey, you wanted answers......

[Guest ceeboo]

Hey again Misshalfway,

Very interesting, thanks for sharing :)

Alot of what you so kindly offered made some sense to my " slightly bias " Catholic brain:)

I really do appreciate the time and effort put in on my behalf.:)

This last comment is NOT to be combative, it is simply stated IMHO ( possibly because I do not get it in its entirity ) a seemingly dangerous road to go down in respect to a group of people " trumping " or deciding what is and is not " doctrine " especially when it comes to what the first LDS prophet teaches from God.

Thanks again for a monumental and extremly kind contribution.:)

God bless,

Your crazy, stubborn, and yes:) STILL Catholic friend,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Hey again Misshalfway,

Very interesting, thanks for sharing :)

Alot of what you so kindly offered made some sense to my " slightly bias " Catholic brain:)

I really do appreciate the time and effort put in on my behalf.:)

This last comment is NOT to be combative, it is simply stated IMHO ( possibly because I do not get it in its entirity ) a seemingly dangerous road to go down in respect to a group of people " trumping " or deciding what is and is not " doctrine " especially when it comes to what the first LDS prophet teaches from God.

Thanks again for a monumental and extremly kind contribution.:)

God bless,

Your crazy, stubborn, and yes:) STILL Catholic friend,

Carl

Ok....so let me see if I can help on the trumping question. Is it the sustaining vote that is making you think this????

No one group can trump the prophet. Revealed doctrine is revealed doctrine and having a testimony of said prophet is important because without such confirmation from the Spirit, how would we know to trust????

Let me try again. The 12 including the president of the church comes to a consensus with each other. A perfect consensus because the Spirit reveals to all of them the Lord's will. It is then presented to the body of the church for a sustaining. That means we are given the chance to say "amen" or "we will support " or we can choose not to. It isn't a vote in the traditional sense and won't trump the prophet. It has no weight or bearing on what is or is not doctrine.

There has never been a time when a vote would trump a prophet.

Clear as mud???:D ( that is what my dad always says)

[Guest ceeboo]

Ok....so let me see if I can help on the trumping question. Is it the sustaining vote that is making you think this????

No one group can trump the prophet. Revealed doctrine is revealed doctrine and having a testimony of said prophet is important because without such confirmation from the Spirit, how would we know to trust????

Let me try again. The 12 including the president of the church comes to a consensus with each other. A perfect consensus because the Spirit reveals to all of them the Lord's will. It is then presented to the body of the church for a sustaining. That means we are given the chance to say "amen" or "we will support " or we can choose not to. It isn't a vote in the traditional sense and won't trump the prophet. It has no weight or bearing on what is or is not doctrine.

There has never been a time when a vote would trump a prophet.

Clear as mud???:D ( that is what my dad always says)

Well, I would say clear as ocean water.

I am sorry to keep bringing up the KFD ( it is only beacause I have not seen many others )

But what happened in this one? Was there a meeting of the 12 and if so what happened?

Can I ask you a " possibly personal question " , I don't know if you think its personal or not. Do you believe ALL that has been prophetized by ALL LDS prophets??

Do you have confirmation ( personaly ) on all of these teachings and such?? Are the personal confirmations that you have ( if you have had them ) the same as the confirmation as to the truth of the BofM??

Wow, that last paragraph was some serious ceeboo ramble, was it not , I wrote it and I don't know if I understand it :lol:

Let me try this, Do you have "confirmation" of JS KFD sermon??

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

I don't mind answering.

First of all, I have no idea about what was done or not done with the KFD. Others here may be able to answer better. The KFD isn't something that is discussed on a regular basis in our church lessons on Sunday and is just one of those sermons that is part of a very big history filled with lots of sermons. Our enemies like to use it though, and so it gets lots of attention.

Yes, I believe all the prophets. I have a great love and respect for Joseph Smith and feel certain he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ that spring day in 1820. But I also love the words of Ezra Taft Benson and Howard W. Hunter and Gordon B Hinckley. They were presidents of the church during my life time and have profoundly changed my life. I trust all the leaders of this church and trust that Jesus is at the helm and will not allow the church or its doctrines to go astray.

Some doctrines I have very personal confirmation from the spirit. You see, the spirit teaches me all the time....almost daily....if :) I am studying and obedient. It helps me understand deeper layers of doctrines and how I need to apply them to my life. Like Faith for example. I have been taught much lately about faith.

Some doctrines I know because I have lived them and experienced the spiritual and temporal blessings. The law of chastity and the Word of wisdom are two examples. Others I take in faith because I don't need to seek an answer. They just make sense. Like baptism by immersion. It made sense the first time I read it and I have never had to question it in any degree.

And then with one or two ideas, I have genuinely struggled and taken my arguments and confusion to God. Polygamy is one. I actually have a testimony of polygamy. Was teaching at church and the Spirit came so very strong that day. But I still don't understand the why and I frankly don't like the idea much. But.....I trust God and have handed the issue to him and thank him that I wasn't born at the time of Abraham. :) It isn't something that shakes my testimony on other ideas though. I have faith that God will help me with my unbelief.

The doctrines presented in the KFD aren't essential to salvation and so it is immaterial whether I have a testimony on it or not. They are fascinating and intriguing. But I haven't prayed about it specifically. I have searched the spirit in my heart and I kinda leave it at that. I concentrate on understanding eternal progression because it is essential to my purpose here on earth and helps me know where I am going and gives me understanding that helps me obey.

I can't say the same about the BofM and the First vision and the Bible and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I better have a testimony of Jesus and I need to understand how to come to him and what is required for sanctification and salvation and his will for me here on this earth today and whom I should follow. These are the areas in which I place my focus and my "work" on my knees as I try to repent and become more like Jesus in my daily walk.

Do you feel that you have been taught by the Spirit in your life? Are there doctrines in your faith that you felt particularly compelled by and needed clarification because of confusion or differing opinions from those around you? And how have you come to your conclusions.....conclusions that you trust are in harmony with the mind and will of God?

Edited September 24, 2008 by Misshalfway

[abqfriend]

I cannot speak for August or Carl, but I myself have many questions on my church doctrines and teachings at times.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church to which I refer for guidance is 2865 paragraphs long plus thousands of footnotes and references to Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions and the writings of the Church-yes I have questions-but none on the fundamentals of my faith.

If you think the official LDS web site is extensive-try this one:

Vatican: the Holy See you can even read it in Latin if so inclined,

but the English may be easier:

The Holy See

-so-yes I have many questions. I speak only for myself- just a Christian struggling at times with life and her faith.

May our Heavenly Father bless each of us in our efforts in seeking Truth.

May we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our efforts.

-Carol

I don't mind answering.

.....Do you feel that you have been taught by the Spirit in your life? Are there doctrines in your faith that you felt particularly compelled by and needed clarification because of confusion or differing opinions from those around you? And how have you come to your conclusions.....conclusions that you trust are in harmony with the mind and will of God?

[August]

Are there doctrines in your faith that you felt particularly compelled by and needed clarification because of confusion or differing opinions from those around you? And how have you come to your conclusions.....conclusions that you trust are in harmony with the mind and will of God?

There are doctrines I've struggled with, as well as aspects of the Church's history. And I do take those things to the Lord. The way I deal with it is to trust in God, and to look back at the central aspects of my faith. If I know that Jesus is my Savior, and I know that He founded a Church which has never and will never fall, then anything else that bothers me can be overcome.