Mentally Handicapped People


HoosierGuy
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More likely they were dropped on their head in infancy or inherited a genetic disease from their parents.

There are all sorts of reasons people are mentally challenged. Looking for divine reasons for their handicap based on premortal life is futile and potentially very harmful. Should we then never try to help these people achieve a level of "normalcy" of mental acuity? After all, what a horrible disservice we would be doing them to deprive them of their exalted, special state of mental retardation!

Poppycock. Some people are mentally retarded because we live in an imperfect world with lots of injuries and diseases. We should treat them just as we should treat anyone else, with perhaps more leeway give their limitations, and continue to try to find ways to bless them to overcome those limitations, just as we wish help in overcoming our own.

(Plus, whenever anyone talks about someone being "a general in the preexistence" or "escorting Satan and his angels from heaven" or "suffering from a grievous wound received in the war in heaven", I cringe as my BS-o-meter gets pegged to the max reading.)

Totally agree with this!

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I wondered about another thought. It is something that has always been of interest and concern to me but I am not sure where to go with the idea. Several years ago I happened to sit on a long airplane ride with an individual that was just returning from a convention as one of the key note speakers. The person was one of the world's leading experts in genetics.

This is a field that I have some interest and questions - so I thought to take advantage of the opportunity to perhaps learn something. My main question had to do with maintaining and improving a strong gene pool in our human population. I voiced the understanding that I had that predators play an important role in populations in that those with weaker genetics are killed. We see this all around us in nature. But in human populations we preserve our weaker individuals seemingly increasing and magnifying detrimental genetics (both mental and physical) in our populations. So my question to the expert is do we have any idea genetically what compassion to "weaker" individuals is having on the gene pool.

He said that there have been some studies but the results so fighting no one has dared to publish the results in fear of public backlash. That made me quite curious so I asked if they would give me some details. They said no - that they did not want to talk about it.

From time to time I have raised this question in discussions like this - I am not sure it can even be discussed without offending someone that should not be offended - or not???

The Traveler

Even if there was such a thing as "improving a strong gene pool", however you would define such a thing, how would that change anything in regard to gospel doctrine?

In other words, what is your view as to the importance of genes (good or bad) on the purpose of this life?

As far as I am concerned, as soon as Cain killed Abel any hope for a "strong gene pool" went out the window and it has been rapidly moving away from that ever since with the exception of the slight 'clean up' God did with the flood.

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Even if there was such a thing as "improving a strong gene pool", however you would define such a thing, how would that change anything in regard to gospel doctrine?

In other words, what is your view as to the importance of genes (good or bad) on the purpose of this life?

As far as I am concerned, as soon as Cain killed Abel any hope for a "strong gene pool" went out the window and it has been rapidly moving away from that ever since with the exception of the slight 'clean up' God did with the flood.

We are at the threshold of being able to better understand, influence and manipulate individual and population genetics. I personally do not believe ignorance contributes positively to our purpose of this life. I do not believe we need fear or em-battle ourselves against any truth but rather should seek understanding.

Also interesting to me is your stand concerning the impact the "physical" part of individuals has in impacting the quality (balance between spiritual and physical) of an individual's life. Do we not know for example that drugs can affect genetics and have an effect on the gene pool? We also know that stress can affect genetics. What is the difference, concerning the purposes of life, in ignoring one's physical well being weather it be caring for various sicknesses, injuries or genetics?

Are you implying that we should not be concerned at all about genetics - not in individual families or the population in general?

The Traveler

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We are at the threshold of being able to better understand, influence and manipulate individual and population genetics. I personally do not believe ignorance contributes positively to our purpose of this life. I do not believe we need fear or em-battle ourselves against any truth but rather should seek understanding.

Also interesting to me is your stand concerning the impact the "physical" part of individuals has in impacting the quality (balance between spiritual and physical) of an individual's life. Do we not know for example that drugs can affect genetics and have an effect on the gene pool? We also know that stress can affect genetics. What is the difference, concerning the purposes of life, in ignoring one's physical well being weather it be caring for various sicknesses, injuries or genetics?

Are you implying that we should not be concerned at all about genetics - not in individual families or the population in general?

The Traveler

Not at all, I worked in the medical field for a couple decades, trying to make people's physical condition more bearable and allow them to continue with their missions in life. My question was more along the lines of the impact a person's genes has on their spiritual well being, if any. I was curious to your standing on such an issue. It seems in previous discussion that you felt the body has very little to do with moral and spiritual decisions and the resulting eternal consequence of such decisions.

In other words, how can the body alone (talking about genetics) change a person's eternal destiny? If we were able to exchange gene A for gene B, how is it that that specific gene change (whatever that may be) now changes the person's eternal destiny?

Or are you saying that the pursuit of health is just another project that God has asked us to work on that simply builds spiritual character and has no intrinsic value? You are implying that by not working on good health etc., that would not be good. So, I am asking what is the intrinsic good that comes from changing a person's genes from one set to another, if that were possible? .... And, what kinds of genes are you talking about? The ones that change hair color and height etc, or the ones that affect personality (see what I am getting at)? To admit to any kind of spiritual well being based in the set of genetics is to suggest that that is where at least some spiritual well being comes from. So, one would have to admit to the fact that the body has "spiritual" or God like characteristics. I am asking you to elaborate on which types of genes, you think, would have such an impact on our eternal destiny?

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We are at the threshold of being able to better understand, influence and manipulate individual and population genetics. I personally do not believe ignorance contributes positively to our purpose of this life. I do not believe we need fear or em-battle ourselves against any truth but rather should seek understanding.

Also interesting to me is your stand concerning the impact the "physical" part of individuals has in impacting the quality (balance between spiritual and physical) of an individual's life. Do we not know for example that drugs can affect genetics and have an effect on the gene pool? We also know that stress can affect genetics. What is the difference, concerning the purposes of life, in ignoring one's physical well being weather it be caring for various sicknesses, injuries or genetics?

Are you implying that we should not be concerned at all about genetics - not in individual families or the population in general?

The Traveler

Are you saying that Heavenly Father has somehow made a mistake in "allowing" mentally handicapped people to exist in the world? That we must seek to somehow eradicate the mentally "handicapped" through the manipulation of genetics? You make it sound as though this is somehow a lesser class of people.

Having a 'handicap' - whether mental or physical - is not the end of the world and does not make one person less than someone else. I have M.S. I would prefer not to - some parts of life would be much easier, but I have no doubt it was part of Heavenly Father's plan for my life and not merely inferior genetics or some such thing. I would even argue that it is a true gift (Ether 12:27).

I am not saying we should not work to eradicate illnesses or not take steps to prevent "mental handicaps" (the results of fetal-alcohol sydrome, for example) but I think we need to tread carefully when it comes to trying to create some sort of super-race. Whose genetics would you choose? Do you get to choose? Who gets to choose which genetics are "acceptable"? And how is being genetically superior relevant to our purpose here and to returning home to Heavenly Father?

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...

It seems in previous discussion that you felt the body has very little to do with moral and spiritual decisions and the resulting eternal consequence of such decisions.

...

You have misunderstood my understanding of a physical body. I believe that our physical body is the means by which our spirit interfaces with the physical universe in which we live. In addition I believe our physical brain is the vale that has caused our spirits to forget our previous estate. Thus the only access to awareness and memory our spirit has in mortality is through our physical body and our physical brain. I believe we are limited as well in in this life in that we can only receive spiritual guidance and influence through and by the physical limitations of our physical body. So that mental limitations would or could act as a shield against dark spirits.

Never-the-less it would therefore stand to reason that our spirits is at a great disadvantage and under much duress during our mortal existence.

The Traveler

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Are you saying that Heavenly Father has somehow made a mistake in "allowing" mentally handicapped people to exist in the world? That we must seek to somehow eradicate the mentally "handicapped" through the manipulation of genetics? You make it sound as though this is somehow a lesser class of people.

Having a 'handicap' - whether mental or physical - is not the end of the world and does not make one person less than someone else. I have M.S. I would prefer not to - some parts of life would be much easier, but I have no doubt it was part of Heavenly Father's plan for my life and not merely inferior genetics or some such thing. I would even argue that it is a true gift (Ether 12:27).

I am not saying we should not work to eradicate illnesses or not take steps to prevent "mental handicaps" (the results of fetal-alcohol sydrome, for example) but I think we need to tread carefully when it comes to trying to create some sort of super-race. Whose genetics would you choose? Do you get to choose? Who gets to choose which genetics are "acceptable"? And how is being genetically superior relevant to our purpose here and to returning home to Heavenly Father?

First off - I have not concluded what should be done - according options available in dealing with various handicaps. Many of my handicap friends do not wish to be treated any differently than anyone else and other seems to be desirous to be given considerations. My experiences in this matter are so varied that I am not sure (even in your case of MS) when I meet someone with limitations, if I should express sympathy or sorrow for the condition or just ignore it altogether expecting them to perform as others.

I also have a grandson that is genetically handicapped. He lives every day with severe pain which most of the time he endures cheerfully. Without medication (steroids) his skin will ooze blood and other fluids all over his body. He is a wonderful and very intelligent lad – he is also unbelievable strong with an astonishing tolerance to pain. But because of his condition and because of the possibility that should his parents have more children that the children would have the same or worse condition; prompting his parents to not have any more children. Because of the difficulties involved – I do not fault them.

But my question all along is – at what point should anyone decide not to have children because of genetics? And is there any condition that may require “society” to have a say in the “rights” of certain individuals to contribute to the gene pool? I am undecided and do not have an answer – but I wonder if others have decided – and if so – what did they consider and where do they draw the line between who should contribute and who should not and when should society intervene? So for those of you that are decided – I hope you do not mind my questions in the matter.

The Traveler

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You have misunderstood my understanding of a physical body. I believe that our physical body is the means by which our spirit interfaces with the physical universe in which we live. In addition I believe our physical brain is the vale that has caused our spirits to forget our previous estate. Thus the only access to awareness and memory our spirit has in mortality is through our physical body and our physical brain. I believe we are limited as well in in this life in that we can only receive spiritual guidance and influence through and by the physical limitations of our physical body. So that mental limitations would or could act as a shield against dark spirits.

Never-the-less it would therefore stand to reason that our spirits is at a great disadvantage and under much duress during our mortal existence.

The Traveler

So, in terms of genetic factors that would be advantageous to manipulate would be those that relate to our spirit's ability to connect "through our physical body and our physical brain"?

In other words, you are not talking about any genetic predispositions to things like violence or empathetic natures etc. When nature drives the selection of genes, it tends to be "survival of the fittest" meaning the selected genes are those that favor survival over others. Having a trait that does anything "over" another, through physical traits, most of the time would not be the genetic selection that leads toward spiritual traits. (In my opinion) Historically, the genes that are most like the set Cain had, 'kill thy brother to get gain' are the ones favored in natural selection. ... For me, I am glad we are not letting that natural process take place.

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So, in terms of genetic factors that would be advantageous to manipulate would be those that relate to our spirit's ability to connect "through our physical body and our physical brain"?

In other words, you are not talking about any genetic predispositions to things like violence or empathetic natures etc. When nature drives the selection of genes, it tends to be "survival of the fittest" meaning the selected genes are those that favor survival over others. Having a trait that does anything "over" another, through physical traits, most of the time would not be the genetic selection that leads toward spiritual traits. (In my opinion) Historically, the genes that are most like the set Cain had, 'kill thy brother to get gain' are the ones favored in natural selection. ... For me, I am glad we are not letting that natural process take place.

I do not think I understand what you are talking about - are you saying that if someone has violent tendencies (genetically) that there is no possibility that their violent nature can be subdued?

I have observed violence both triggered and reduced with physical

induced stimulus.

The Traveler

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I do not think I understand what you are talking about - are you saying that if someone has violent tendencies (genetically) that there is no possibility that their violent nature can be subdued?

I have observed violence both triggered and reduced with physical

induced stimulus.

The Traveler

Sorry. No I am not saying that.

I was not trying to imply what could or couldn't be overcome, just talking about the predispositions (the thing that has to be overcome) that exist in the first place. I was asking you what you would hope to change about the gene pool in regard to gospel principles and eternal consequence specifically. In other words, what effect do genes (in general - good or bad or however you want to define any particular gene) have on the ultimate outcome, the final judgement. You are kind of implying that they may have some benefit in terms of eternal consequence. I am trying to have you specify where you think that benefit would come from if one were able to change the "gene pool" as it relates to the purpose of this life (not talking about after this life when everything is made perfect).

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Sorry. No I am not saying that.

I was not trying to imply what could or couldn't be overcome, just talking about the predispositions (the thing that has to be overcome) that exist in the first place. I was asking you what you would hope to change about the gene pool in regard to gospel principles and eternal consequence specifically. In other words, what effect do genes (in general - good or bad or however you want to define any particular gene) have on the ultimate outcome, the final judgement. You are kind of implying that they may have some benefit in terms of eternal consequence. I am trying to have you specify where you think that benefit would come from if one were able to change the "gene pool" as it relates to the purpose of this life (not talking about after this life when everything is made perfect).

I have come to be skeptical concerning certain questions. Sometimes when someone asks during a gospel discussion if a particular point in question is necessary for salvation I wonder if such a question even has an implicit isotropic answer valid in all possible cases. From the scriptures we learn that if a person knows to do good and does not do it - to them it is sin. The question is - what is good? Is curing cancer good - but is it necessary for salvation? Is finding joy in the journey necessary for salvation? Is going to church while one is on vacation necessary for salvation?

What would be the difference between wearing glasses or contacts - is one more noble than the other? But if we could genetically improve our eye sight - or correct allergies before birth should we try? How about improving our immune system? Should children have shots and be given medicine?

Should we eat healthy foods and exercise? Should we try to improve our health or increase our life span and our quality of health in living longer? Does living healthier really matter in the long eternal run?

I am not sure I have those kinds of answers - but to the general question - if we could be better and refuse to make any effort??? Is that helping us be one with G-d and like him?

The Traveler

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I have come to be skeptical concerning certain questions. Sometimes when someone asks during a gospel discussion if a particular point in question is necessary for salvation I wonder if such a question even has an implicit isotropic answer valid in all possible cases. From the scriptures we learn that if a person knows to do good and does not do it - to them it is sin. The question is - what is good? Is curing cancer good - but is it necessary for salvation? Is finding joy in the journey necessary for salvation? Is going to church while one is on vacation necessary for salvation?

What would be the difference between wearing glasses or contacts - is one more noble than the other? But if we could genetically improve our eye sight - or correct allergies before birth should we try? How about improving our immune system? Should children have shots and be given medicine?

Should we eat healthy foods and exercise? Should we try to improve our health or increase our life span and our quality of health in living longer? Does living healthier really matter in the long eternal run?

I am not sure I have those kinds of answers - but to the general question - if we could be better and refuse to make any effort??? Is that helping us be one with G-d and like him?

The Traveler

Again, I think you are sidestepping my question for you. Which is, what genetic trait or traits could change our eternal destiny? Go ahead and give me one.

I am not talking about the intrinsic benefit that comes from attempting to make life better in all ways, the pursuit of anything praiseworthy etc. That is not the question. I agree that we should always be anxiously engaged in a good cause. The question that is raised is what aspect of our physical being that could be changed via genetics would have eternal consequence? If I had gene A instead of gene B, how would that affect where I end up in the next life? Again, I am not talking about the pursuit of change but what physical characteristic could be changed in such a process that makes it eternally beneficial? ... I don't think eye sight or allergies fits with eternal consequence ... so try again.

Since you are using that definition of "From the scriptures we learn that if a person knows to do good and does not do it - to them it is sin." then I am asking what genetic trait is related to that criteria that one could potentially change via genetic manipulation? ... say "none" if that is your answer or give an example. Either way, I am trying to understand where you are coming from with this idea that genetic manipulation could potentially help our eternal consequence outside of simply pursuing anything that is praiseworthy etc. Then genetic manipulation would by no more praiseworthy than learning any skill, like playing the piano etc.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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Again, I think you are sidestepping my question for you. Which is, what genetic trait or traits could change our eternal destiny? Go ahead and give me one.

I am not talking about the intrinsic benefit that comes from attempting to make life better in all ways, the pursuit of anything praiseworthy etc. That is not the question. I agree that we should always be anxiously engaged in a good cause. The question that is raised is what aspect of our physical being that could be changed via genetics would have eternal consequence? If I had gene A instead of gene B, how would that affect where I end up in the next life? Again, I am not talking about the pursuit of change but what physical characteristic could be changed in such a process that makes it eternally beneficial? ... I don't think eye sight or allergies fits with eternal consequence ... so try again.

...

Any gene associated with a handicap – For example do you believe that any Celestial individual will possess any handicaps? How about eyeglasses or hearing aids? I find it interesting that you are implying that Celestial individuals will have allergies – that such things would not have any eternal consequence. If you believe it and so desire it for yourself – I will not argue with you or anyone else concerning their personal desires for eternity. You may keep every single gene you were born with for ever and ever and ever.

The Traveler

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Last week I worked and taught classes for a program called "Everyone Counts" that helps children understand what the different handicaps are and to have compassion rather than stare or make fun of someone who looks or acts a little differently than they do. Through the program, I have learned a lot.

Did you know that Einstein was mentally handicapped? He was unable to talk until he was 4, and had a very hard time at school - Albert Einstein - Scott's Little Corner of the Web

It was not because he was stupid, it was because he thought and learned differently than others do. Einstein is not the only person with this type of background. Edison had to be home schooled, because he too, learned things differently than others.

read through some of these lists, and perhaps you will come to see what some call "handicaps" in a different light:

Famous People with Disabilities

I think it is sad that we have assigned a name such as "handicapped" to incredible people who just happen to learn and act a little differently than we do. God loves all of His children, and has given each of us unique and precious gifts. There is a divine nature within all of us, a light within all of us, a purpose and beauty within each life.

Einstein was thought (as stated in the link you gave) to be mentally retarded but he wasn't. Just because he was misdiagnosed doesn't mean everyone is misdiagnosed. All misdiagnoses are unfortunate but that usually leads to refining the ability to make the diagnosis. Testing for these things is much different now then it was back then. He should only be used as a poster-child for misdiagnosis not "mentally handicapped". There is a difference between developmental delay and mental retardation.

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Any gene associated with a handicap – For example do you believe that any Celestial individual will possess any handicaps? How about eyeglasses or hearing aids? I find it interesting that you are implying that Celestial individuals will have allergies – that such things would not have any eternal consequence. If you believe it and so desire it for yourself – I will not argue with you or anyone else concerning their personal desires for eternity. You may keep every single gene you were born with for ever and ever and ever.

The Traveler

I am talking about this life. I don't equate my set of genes that I have in this life with the ones I will have for eternity. Maybe that is where we are not crossing paths in our discussion.

I was always talking about this life only as I thought you were. The question about what genetic manipulation could be taken to affect our eternal destiny was only related to this life. I don't think there is any "genetic" factor that I would want to change about the body in the next life. So, to me that is an absurd idea. I have never thought of it in terms of changing the resurrected body genetics and there was nothing in what you said that seemed like you could be possibly talking about the next life's body. I have always considered our discussion to be only about this body here, the one that could potentially be manipulated, not the perfected one that by definition could not have any "gene pool" manipulation.

The question was what specific set of genes could you change of this mortal, temporary, corrupted body that we have been loaned that would affect our eternal destiny, if one thinks they could somehow manipulate the "gene pool" like you suggested? In other words, why would such a pursuit have any eternal consequence more than just simply saying 'anything of good report is worth pursuing' like learning how to play the piano or how to make a campfire without matches, etc? What specifically is the eternal benefit of changing one's mortal genes (not the resurrected genes) that you are implying by asking the question about the "gene pool"?

If we consider everyone's situation now, which includes the mortal body by designating it as a different numbered test, i.e. - test version #1, test version #2, test version #3 etc. etc., why would the outcome of the test be different if I took test #5,407 as opposed to test # 6,790? To me, as I know God takes into account all the variables of this test, including the genetic make up of our temporary body, I know the test results will be the same no matter what version of the test is taken. Therefore, I see no benefit in changing the version of the test. If I was able to change the test version from #2,908 to #203, it would ultimately make no difference in the outcome. But you are trying to say it would. So, I am trying to understand your reasoning there.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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I am talking about this life. I don't equate my set of genes that I have in this life with the ones I will have for eternity. Maybe that is where we are not crossing paths in our discussion.

I was always talking about this life only as I thought you were. The question about what genetic manipulation could be taken to affect our eternal destiny was only related to this life. I don't think there is any "genetic" factor that I would want to change about the body in the next life. So, to me that is an absurd idea. I have never thought of it in terms of changing the resurrected body genetics and there was nothing in what you said that seemed like you could be possibly talking about the next life's body. I have always considered our discussion to be only about this body here, the one that could potentially be manipulated, not the perfected one that by definition could not have any "gene pool" manipulation.

The question was what specific set of genes could you change of this mortal, temporary, corrupted body that we have been loaned that would affect our eternal destiny, if one thinks they could somehow manipulate the "gene pool" like you suggested? In other words, why would such a pursuit have any eternal consequence more than just simply saying 'anything of good report is worth pursuing' like learning how to play the piano or how to make a campfire without matches, etc? What specifically is the eternal benefit of changing one's mortal genes (not the resurrected genes) that you are implying by asking the question about the "gene pool"?

If we consider everyone's situation now, which includes the mortal body by designating it as a different numbered test, i.e. - test version #1, test version #2, test version #3 etc. etc., why would the outcome of the test be different if I took test #5,407 as opposed to test # 6,790? To me, as I know God takes into account all the variables of this test, including the genetic make up of our temporary body, I know the test results will be the same no matter what version of the test is taken. Therefore, I see no benefit in changing the version of the test. If I was able to change the test version from #2,908 to #203, it would ultimately make no difference in the outcome. But you are trying to say it would. So, I am trying to understand your reasoning there.

Some day I would love to sit down with you for at least several hours and have a very long conversation. It appears to me that you have many contradictory ideas about things and I cannot figure out how you have connected them.

As to this thread, I have two friends that are missing their right hand - one was born that way the other lost his hand in an accident. Both of then would dearly love to have a right hand but neither one of them are loosing any sleep over it and neither want to be considered handicapped. They consider themselves as someone that (temporally) does not have use of their right hand.

Never-the-less, if it were possible, I believe we should restore as much of their right hand as we have power and intelligence to do so. I do not believe such efforts thwart the eternal plans of G-d. In fact, I believe that is in part the purpose that we exist in a corrupted state. For the very reason not to be satisfied with corruption but to seek, as much as we are able, after an uncorrupted state. Perhaps the difference is that I believe our life here is a continuous function - directly connected before birth and beyond death to eternity.

The Traveler

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Some day I would love to sit down with you for at least several hours and have a very long conversation. It appears to me that you have many contradictory ideas about things and I cannot figure out how you have connected them.

As to this thread, I have two friends that are missing their right hand - one was born that way the other lost his hand in an accident. Both of then would dearly love to have a right hand but neither one of them are loosing any sleep over it and neither want to be considered handicapped. They consider themselves as someone that (temporally) does not have use of their right hand.

Never-the-less, if it were possible, I believe we should restore as much of their right hand as we have power and intelligence to do so. I do not believe such efforts thwart the eternal plans of G-d. In fact, I believe that is in part the purpose that we exist in a corrupted state. For the very reason not to be satisfied with corruption but to seek, as much as we are able, after an uncorrupted state. Perhaps the difference is that I believe our life here is a continuous function - directly connected before birth and beyond death to eternity.

The Traveler

Thanks, that response helps me understand where you are coming from.

I also believe there is a connection between past and future lives as would anyone who believes in the plan of salvation but the problem that I am getting at is that some want to believe there is a linear connection between the three. That is what I was trying to get from you if that is what you believe but apparently your view of that is not that specific or I am having a hard time getting it from you, one of the two. The questions pertained to your last sentence there, "...directly connected before birth and beyond death to eternity." ... in what way? was the question.

There are some that believe whatever body they have here is somehow connected to the type of body they will have in the next. I was wondering if that might be the reason you would think that genetic manipulation might be advantageous. It seems now you are saying (like I offered as an example to you to see if that is how you thought of it) that it might be like anything that is praiseworthy, like learning to play the piano etc. Your views of why genetic manipulation may be good is simply from the act of doing anything that is good ... is that right? That is what I get from what you are saying. The good is just intrinsic to being involved in anything that is good, whether it be genetic manipulation versus learning the words of a hymn or taking dinner to a neighbor .... its all good. Or, is there something about genetic manipulation that would change the future eternal life of a person because the genes were changed in this life?

I don't think there is a "direct" connection as it is not linear and it is also variable. Some people that were noble are born with deficiencies in this life and yet we know that some that are high (in this life) will be made low, etc. We can't tell by looking at someone's genes how well they did in the previous life. In the same light, I believe we cannot tell how well the outcome will be for any person by looking at their genes from this life. I think it is a variable relationship, not a direct one. I am curious why you think it might be "direct" and how it is "direct", between mortal genes and eternal make up.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 years later...

 I take it that many of you have singling out one word, "physical" and tried to make it mean something that it does not mean. I take "physical ... limitations" to mean something very similar to "nationalistic limitations" or in other words, if you are in a physical location on the earth that has limited access to the word of God. 
Even if it means something else, does one obscure quotation of personal opinion from a Church leader make it the doctrine of the Church? No. 

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