August Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 So, if you can put up with another of my threads... Could you explain your Church's beliefs about marriage being eternal? How does it work?where does the belief come from? etc. In light of that, how do you explain this passage? Matthew 22:23-33 23 On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. They put this question to him, 24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.' 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. 26 The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. 27 Finally the woman died. 28 Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her." 29 Jesus said to them in reply, "You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven. 31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching. I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong, I just want to know. Thanks:) Quote
BenRaines Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 First, as you have stated, Christ was talking to those who did not believe in the resurrection. Christ made the statement that there will be no marrying or giving in marriage at the resurrection. We believe that to be true. At the time of the resurrection all the marrying will have been done. I do not see anywhere in these verses or others that I have read where it says. Your marriage will no longer exist after you die. I am only guessing here since the scriptures do not differentiate that she was married, if married in the temple by the priesthood, only to the first husband for time and all eternity. To the others she was married only for mortality. Of course this means nothing to anyone who only believes that the Bible is all that God has revealed and all he will ever reveal and that those who lived before Christ's time were worthy or entitled to Prophets and ongoing revelation and that a couple of hundred years after Christ there were not need for Apostles and Prophets. Not directed at you August but those who feel that way. Ben Raines Quote
tubaloth Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) Really to understand Eternal Marriage you have to understand Priesthood. Obviously, because God is beyond any real laws that earth has (not just Man made laws but also physical laws). Gods power is beyond what is done on this earth! The point of having the priesthood is so when things are done in God’s name, they are done more then just on this earth life, they are done Eternally (sense God is Eternal). It wouldn’t make sense that God’s power has limitations to mortal time frame. One example is Jesus Christ's atonement! Its power is beyond just when Christ was on this earth! Those that believe in the Atonement in Jesus Christ believe that its power is eternal (or else The Atonement wouldn't cover us some 2000 years after Christ's death). That same would hold true with anything that is done in God's name. Do you believe your Baptism (I'm only guessing here) ends at death? So, if somebody marries somebody and its done in God’s power, it would then be for eternality, or eternal Marriage. If it is done by mans power then it would last as long as mans powers last (at death). We believe that when Adam and Eve where in the Garden they were married by God’s power in a world that didn’t have death! Because God is still the same, his power is still the same, and thus his Priesthood is still eternal and marriage is for eternity! Edited September 25, 2008 by tubaloth Quote
drjme Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 We believe that when Adam and Eve where in the Garden they were married by God’s power in a world that didn’t have death! Because God is still the same, his power is still the same, and thus his Priesthood is still eternal and marriage is for eternity!exactly, a lot of people don't realize this. Adam and Eve were given in marriage before the fall, before the fall they were immortal and eternal, hence they would have been married for eternity (or as long as they didn't fall, but the rest is history :) So even if you don't believe in the LDS concept of eternal marriage, You can't close your mind to it's possibilty. Quote
Hemidakota Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) Eternal marriage is part of the eternal plan or plan of salvation.Additional references: Preface in Eternal Marriage ... Eternal Marriage Student Manual Preparing for an Eternal Marriage, Religion 234 Building an Eternal Marriage, Religion 235 cover Prepared by the Church ... 10 Atonement and Eternal Marriage ... I Have a Question in Ensign Feb. 1986 ...doctrinal explanation of the doctrine of eternal marriage. Instead, he quickly defused their argument ... more prepared to listen to a discourse on eternal marriage than they were prepared to accept the reality ... celestial kingdom, which the Lord equates with eternal marriage. (See D&C 132:19-24.) The Savior made .. Marriage Is Essential to His Eternal Plan in Ensign June 2006 by David A. Bednar ...assignment is to discuss the essential role of eternal marriage in our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness ... questions as we discuss principles related to eternal marriage. Question 1: In my own life, am I striving ... doctrinal reasons help us to understand why eternal marriage is essential to the Father's plan. Reason... A Union of Love and Understanding in Ensign Oct. 1994 by Marlin K. Jensen ...fulfillment and happiness that exists in an eternal marriage, potential that too often goes unrealized ... Joseph Smith did not teach the doctrine of eternal marriage until several years after the organization ... earlier, first heard about the concept of eternal marriage from the Prophet in Philadelphia in 1839... Eternal Marriage in Conference Report, April 2003 by F. Burton Howard ... Eternal Marriage Elder F. Burton Howard Of the Seventy F. Burton Howard, *Eternal Marriage,* Ensign, May 2003, 92 A number of years ... prevail over covenants and commitment. Eternal marriage is a principle which was established before... Loving with the Spirit and with the Understanding in BYU Speeches 1993 by Marlin K. Jensen - 28 March 1993 ...fulfillment and happiness that exists in an eternal marriage--potential that can often go unrealized ... of the gospel unfolded, the doctrine of eternal marriage apparently was not taught by the Prophet ... earlier, first heard about the concept of eternal marriage from Joseph Smith in Philadelphia in 1839... Eternal Marriage in Conference Report, October 1984 by Marion D. Hanks ... Eternal Marriage Priesthood Session Eternal Marriage ... Quorum of the Seventy Marion D. Hanks, A*Eternal Marriage,A* Ensign, Nov. 1984, 35 I am assigned to speak on the subject of eternal marriage and am prayerful that my preparation and... Receive the Temple Blessings in Ensign May 1999 by Richard G. Scott ...unbounded joy--is that principle called eternal marriage. This doctrine means that a man and woman ... discovery known as courtship leading to eternal marriage. It can be a wondrously beautiful time ... courtship. There is more to a foundation of eternal marriage than a pretty face or an attractive figure... Eternal Marriagein Ensign Nov. 1984 by Marion D. Hanks ...day Saints Ensign >> 1984 >> November Eternal Marriage Elder Marion D. Hanks Of the First Quorum ... Previous * Print * E-mail Marion D. Hanks, "Eternal Marriage," Ensign, Nov 1984, 35 Image I am assigned to speak on the subject of eternal marriage and am prayerful that my preparation and... First Presidency Message Temples and Eternal Marriage in Ensign Aug. 1974 by Spencer W. Kimball ...August First Presidency Message Temples and Eternal Marriage By President Spencer W. Kimball * Next ... , "First Presidency Message Temples and Eternal Marriage," Ensign, Aug 1974, 2 Temple marriage ... accord. The way is well defined and clear. Eternal marriage was known to Adam and others of the prophets... Receive the Temple Blessings in Conference Report, April 1999 by Richard G. Scott ...unbounded joy--is that principle called eternal marriage. This doctrine means that a man and woman ... discovery known as courtship leading to eternal marriage. It can be a wondrously beautiful time ... courtship. There is more to a foundation of eternal marriage than a pretty face or an attractive figure... Temples and Eternal Marriage in Ensign Feb. 1995 by Spencer W. Kimball (1895–1985) ...Ensign >> 1995 >> February Temples and Eternal Marriage By President Spencer W. Kimball (1895- ... -mail Spencer W. Kimball, "Temples and Eternal Marriage," Ensign, Feb 1995, 41 Temple marriage ... accord. The way is well defined and clear. Eternal marriage was known to Adam and others of the prophets... Sustaining—and Being Sustained by—the Priesthood in Ensign Mar. 1987 by Marie K. Hafen ...still looks forward to the blessings of an eternal marriage to one who honors his priesthood, if not ... to mankind; --having the opportunity of eternal marriage and exaltation in the celestial kingdom ... priesthood blessings is the temple ordinance of eternal marriage. Unless we enter into this priesthood ordinance... Happiness in Marriage, Holy Spirit of Promise, Independence, Intimacy in Marriage, Jesus Christ, Knowledge of Spiritual Things, Living Together without Marriage, Love in Eternal Marriage ...that they are happy at home, sealed in an eternal marriage, linked to their generations, and assured ... fulfillment and happiness that exists in an eternal marriage, potential that too often goes unrealized ... Joseph Smith did not teach the doctrine of eternal marriage until several years after the organization... Marriage and the Patriarchal Order in Ensign Sept. 1982 by Dean L. Larsen ...families who have entered into the covenant of eternal marriage. The Lord has explained, regarding those ... the opportunity to make the covenants of eternal marriage, whether or not that privilege becomes ... circumstances, to enter into the covenant of eternal marriage with a worthy companion, are as unwise ... My Conversion to Eternal Marriage in Ensign Sept. 2007 by James Welch ... >> 2007 >> September My Conversion to Eternal Marriage By James Welch * Next > * < Previous ... E-mail James Welch, "My Conversion to Eternal Marriage," Ensign, Sep 2007, 28-31 I wanted to ... instance, I did struggle with the principle of eternal marriage--my eternal marriage. A Cycle of Failure... Children of Divorce in Ensign Aug. 2002 by Elaine Walton ...this sad lament: What do you do when an eternal marriage is the deep desire of your heart, but you ... all the truths you need to build your own eternal marriage. When you look within yourself, you will ... happiness in marriage when she envisioned eternal marriage with a young man who had been her friend... Eternal Marriage Begins in Mortality in Ensign Oct. 2005 by Brent A. Barlow ...-day Saints Ensign >> 2005 >> October Eternal Marriage Begins in Mortality By Brent A. Barlow ... Previous * Print * E-mail Brent A. Barlow, "Eternal Marriage Begins in Mortality," Ensign, Oct 2005, ... toward marriage by saying: "Eternal love, eternal marriage, eternal increase! This ideal, which is... I Have a Questionin Ensign Feb. 1976 ...Presidency. There are good reasons for this. Eternal marriage is a holy ordinance that is necessary to ... disregard for the sacred character of the eternal marriage covenant, the repentance of those involved ... reconciled with the revealed truths of eternal marriage? C. Wilfred Griggs, "I Have a Question... A Man Who Speaks to Our Time from Eternity in Ensign Mar. 1989 by Arthur Henry King ...experiences--for example, the experience of eternal marriage--may broaden and deepen and become richer ... think we understand the significance of eternal marriage at the time we are married, we may understand ... realize what the real significance of an eternal marriage is. So just as we should go back constantly... First Presidency Message The Marriage That Endures in Ensign July 2003 by Gordon B. Hinckley ...members if they have ever had to explain eternal marriage to a neighbor or friend. Invite them to ... two, and have them practice explaining eternal marriage. 2. Show family members a rose or some ... message. Encourage family members to make an eternal marriage and loving family a priority--no matter... Four Principles of a Joyous Marriage in Ensign Aug. 2000 by Carin Lund ...faith are important keys to building an eternal marriage. Marriage can be challenging for anyone ... advice is vital to the well-being of an eternal marriage. Our sentiments toward our spouse--and ... and good humor. Feed the Faith In an eternal marriage, nothing would seem quite as important ... Edited September 25, 2008 by Hemidakota Quote
MaidservantX Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 I can't improve on the study that Hemi has provided, and tubaloth made a great statement about the priesthood. However to speak just to that verse in Matthew, this is my understanding of it. First of all, Jesus lived for 30 years and had a ministry of about 3 years. Out of all that time, we only have a very few of his words. There were some occasions, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the information that he gave his Apostles at the last supper, where the Savior was specifically laying out doctrine for his Church. In this passage however, he is simply answering a specific question given of a specific situation to some rude people. I hardly think this is all Jesus would have to say on the subject of marriage. In fact, in the New Testament and most of the scriptures, marriage is not something talked about explicity a lot which is odd to me since it seems so central to life and eternity, so a reader of the scriptures has to have insight, inspiration and revelation to understand further how to apply the scriptures to one's marriage. (I.e. "proof texting" is an extremely poor way of using and understanding the scriptures, IMO.) Secondly, Jesus is speaking to these people upon the only understanding they have, which is the Mosaic laws of marriage, or possibly any current (to the question asker) mutation of the Mosaic laws of marriage. They described a Levirate marriage. It is my understanding that the Mosaic law makes no provision for eternal marriage, that such priesthood is NOT available to the people that Jesus is speaking to. I may be wrong. I do find it telling, however, that the question asker was completely comfortable with the concept of marriage lasting longer than death, else why does the question come up? So perhaps there is a tradition of eternal marriage to draw upon. (By the way, I am always curious about the Greek in difficult passages, and also any other history of the transfer of text throughout the ages). Thirdly, going back to the fact that these were rude people asking this question. The passage starts out by saying that the people asking him did not believe in the resurrection. But they asked him a question about resurrection. So right there, something hinky is going on; they aren't really wanting to understand marriage. They are, once again, trying to trap Jesus doctrinally. He reminds them that they simply don't understand and does answer their question. But I find it interesting that he refers to the "power of God". He also says that they are as the angels of God. What the heck exactly does that mean? "angels of God"? one would have to have an entire understanding of the angels of God to understand that answer. Did the question askers then understand that answer? I don't think modern readers do. In any case, Jesus only perfunctorily answered the marriage question, opting instead to testify to these unbelievers about the reality of the resurrection. Verse 31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God . . . God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." For some reason this answer (in its entirety) astonished the listeners we are told in v33, which I am curious why, since it seems so obvious to the modern (believing) reader. Okay, so I offer this just as my personal understanding, I don't know if I can represent the church with this. But, great question. Glad to have you here. Quote
rameumptom Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) Jesus was speaking concerning the resurrection. Eternal marriage is for those who believe in resurrection AND in the fullness of the gospel. The Sadduccees did not believe in resurrection nor in eternal marriage. The temple in Jesus' time worked by the Aaronic Priesthood's power, not the Melchizedek Priesthood, wherein is the key to sealing marriages for eternity. She had not been eternally married, so it wasn't an issue for Jesus to even speak about to them, given their main point was resurrection and not eternal marriage. So, Jesus was saying they would be angels, because there is a resurrection and they had not qualified for eternal marriage. Edited September 25, 2008 by rameumptom Quote
Guest TheLutheran Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 . . . We believe that when Adam and Eve where [sic] in the Garden they were married by God’s power in a world that didn’t have death! Because God is still the same, his power is still the same, and thus his Priesthood is still eternal and marriage is for eternity! . . .Hi Tubaloth!Is there a biblical reference for the marriage of Adam and Eve? I am a rusty Bible scholar and wasn't able to find anything in my searching. Thank you, in advance, for the Bible coordinates! Quote
BenRaines Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 No scripture, common sense. My belief is that God would not tell them to multiply and be fruitful without their union being sealed. Do you believe, that without scriptural proof, that God commanded them to fornicate? Commit an immoral act? Ben Raines Quote
abqfriend Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 If they were the only two people in existence at the time-could they fornicate?God must have approved of their union-although they had no other choices for partners.No reception, no wedding cake either-but being in the presence of God must have been much better than a big reception or wedding breakfast gathering.Interesting to think about.-CarolNo scripture, common sense. My belief is that God would not tell them to multiply and be fruitful without their union being sealed.Do you believe, that without scriptural proof, that God commanded them to fornicate? Commit an immoral act?Ben Raines Quote
BenRaines Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 Fornicate is when two unmarried people have intimate relations. Adultery is when one married person has intimate relations with someone they are not married to. As I understand it. Ben Raines Quote
drjme Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) Is there a biblical reference for the marriage of Adam and Eve? I am a rusty Bible scholar and wasn't able to find anything in my searching. Thank you, in advance, for the Bible coordinates!Hi tere, here is one:Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Edited September 25, 2008 by drjme Quote
Guest TheLutheran Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 No scripture, common sense. My belief is that God would not tell them to multiply and be fruitful without their union being sealed. Do you believe, that without scriptural proof, that God commanded them to fornicate? Commit an immoral act?I believe Adam and Eve's union was pleasing to God. I do not believe God commanded them to fornicate or commit an immoral act. But . . . even though your avatar is scary and your post forceful, that's as far as I will go. Quote
BenRaines Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 So that I understand, there are different rules from then to now. Do you consider marriage a man made act? Does God not require it? If he requires it of us now I would say it was required of Adam and Eve too. No scripture just makes sense to me. Some day I will get a picture of me in a white shirt and tie and in mere mortal looks. Ben Raines Quote
Hemidakota Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 If they were the only two people in existence at the time-could they fornicate?God must have approved of their union-although they had no other choices for partners.No reception, no wedding cake either-but being in the presence of God must have been much better than a big reception or wedding breakfast gathering.Interesting to think about.-CarolNo need for worldly garb and glitter in performing the unionship of Adam and Eve. Quote
Hemidakota Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 I believe Adam and Eve's union was pleasing to God. I do not believe God commanded them to fornicate or commit an immoral act.Noting both Adam and Eve development level within the garden, I highly doubt they were even remotely interested in being sealed without external instruction of such ceremony. Being instructed and thus being sealed together within marriage, there was no adequate knowledge to pro-create. It wasn’t until the fallen state when they understand the prior marriage ceremony and its importunacy for mankind. We also not give any information on who conducted this marriage ceremony. Quote
Guest TheLutheran Posted September 25, 2008 Report Posted September 25, 2008 . . . Do you consider marriage a man made act? Does God not require it? . . .I consider the cleaving of one man to one woman God's intention for us but not required for salvation. Just to be clear, I believe baptism and communion are sacraments (required).No Ben!! Not the white shirt and tie!! That's the scariest!!! Quote
tubaloth Posted September 26, 2008 Report Posted September 26, 2008 Hi Tubaloth!Is there a biblical reference for the marriage of Adam and Eve? I am a rusty Bible scholar and wasn't able to find anything in my searching. Thank you, in advance, for the Bible coordinates!Honestly I never really thought of it as a BIBLE thing. I thought of it more as an LDS teaching thing. (I know more then one modern day prophet has taught this). Drjme Quoted the verses that are in the bible. Those themselves don’t really teach marriage, they more imply marriage (mostly how it refers to Eve as Adam’s wife). So I think the teaching is there. That was as far as my thoughts were going to. After my first post I realized there was a scripture I should have included, and much to my surprise is brought both thoughts together. (Matthew 19:3-6.)3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.Its clear here that Jesus was talking about Adam and Eve joining together and becoming “One flesh” this even more shows how they were most likely married. (Before or after the fall probably isn't that relevant) I consider the cleaving of one man to one woman God's intention for us but not required for salvation. Just to be clear, I believe baptism and communion are sacraments (required).That is interesting. That’s fine. The overall point I think I wanted to make goes a long with your thoughts. Things done by God’s power last beyond the grave! (We call it the sealing power, the same power that Peter got to “bind on earth and in Heaven”)It doesn’t really make sense that things performed by this power (like marriage) would then not be at least meant to last into the next life. As Jesus Taught, things that God joins together let not man destroy. Quote
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