Discussion on Original Sin

[Justice]

I am currently involved in a discussion about original sin on a non-denominational board. I'll give you the last 2 posts.

Original sin doesn't mean we are forced to sin. It means that we are born spiritually dead and incapable of overcoming "the natural urges to sin that were brought about because of the fall". Of course we are responsible for our own actions, no one is going to escape the fires of hell by saying "it's Adam's fault". The Spirit gives life; our flesh is of no avail.

If original sin was not true, I would find it very amazing that not one single person in the history of humanity was able to be righteous apart from God's redemption in Christ. You would think that maybe a handful of people out of all those billions would have been able to fight off those temptations and not sin. If people are born free from Adam's sin, wouldn't some people avoid sin? So, you must ask the question, why is it that no one has chosen a righteous path on their own? Is it because we were created flawed? No, it is because we inherited Adam's death.

But, He did give us redemption through Christ our Lord.

To which I replied:

Maybe I'm just not understanding. I can be very difficult sometimes... just ask my wife.

But, I see:

forced to sin

and

incapable of overcoming

as the exact same thing.

If we are incapable of overcoming something then we are not responsible when we don't.

It would be silly to drop a glass by choice and then blame the glass for breaking itself. It does not have the ability, or is incapable, of overcoming gravity on it's own. So, if we must sin, or are incapable of overcoming temptation, then we would not be responsible.

What makes us capable is we make our own choices from moment to moment. If that were not the case then we would not be responsible.

What is it that makes one capable of overcoming? Isn't that always available to the man? What is it that makes a man not capable one moment and then capable the next?

I really am trying to understand.

There is a difference between being able to overcome tempation to sin, and being able to overcome the consequenses for sin. Tempation can be overcome, consequenses once sin is chosen cannot be. That is why we need Christ. Not because we cannot overcome tempation, but because we chose to sin and cannot overcome the consequenses that come as a result.

I hope you see where I'm coming from.

Original sin teaches we have the consequenses even before we choose to sin.

I'm not buying it. You have to convince me. That would mean we are equally responsible for Adam's choice... and that would not be fair. That's not the God I believe in.

For a man to sin and be held responsible it must be the result of his own choice, not the choice of another. If that were the case then Adam could have also atoned for our sin, since he was the "cause" of it. I don't believe he "caused" it, but that he made the knowledge of good and evil available to man so that we each could choose for ourselves.

As a result of Adam eating the fruit, or the condition as a result of the fall, God said:

Genesis 3:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

God did not say "the man is in a state where he cannot overcome sin," he said "he is in a state where he is capable of sin." To be as God is not to be in a state where one must sin, because God doesn't sin. But, to be in a state where we can choose good over evil, since we now understand both.

That must be... if we are each responsible.

Right?

Any further thoughts from either side?

[bytor2112]

Thankfully we understand that the fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing for all of us.

Nephi II 2: 22-25

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Moses 5: 9 and 11

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Moses 6: 48

48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

Edited October 3, 2008 by bytor2112

[Hemidakota]

Go back to the original thread [irony of that - LOL] there is a background history revealing that this term called 'ORIGINAL SIN' did not come from the scriptures but mere fabrication of the apostates in the council of Carthage, Catholic Church, held 418 A.D.. This added disposition was again stressed to the council of the church in 529 A.D. and in the Council of Trent in 1546. Although, the doctrine is primarily a Catholic one, it has found its way into the creeds of some of today's protestant churches.

[Hemidakota]

Thankfully we understand that the fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing for all of us.

Nephi II 2: 22-25

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Moses 5: 9 and 11

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Moses 6: 48

48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

Since Lehi had the writings of Moses, he possessed the same material as we do today. it was a mere reference from Moses and not especially Nephi own vision but learning it from his father and the scriptures they brought. Now, [mine own opinion] I have reservation that being left in the garden, as children overtime learned from school the facts of life, if they continued with instructed by the GODHEAD and other ministry personages, could both Adam and Eve learn overtime for themselves the facts of life? Yet, this will be a question I will be asking when we cross the veil.

What I have said, does not constitutes the church belief or to be considered doctrinal.

[prisonchaplain]

The book of Romans has two pertinent Scriptures...chapter 3, verses 10 & 23, I believe. Vs. 10 says that no one is righteous, no not one. Verse 23 says all have sinned. So, imho, the teaching of original sin attempts to get at WHY none all righteous and all sin. From a biblical perspective, that may include some reasoning that goes beyond the revelation of Scripture. As others have pointed out, LDS canon does give some additional insight that is in disagreement with the doctrine of original sin.

Irregardless, I'm thankful for Romans 6:23, that says the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[rameumptom]

In the Book of Moses, we read that the concept of original sin was rejected once the people had learned that Christ paid for sins. It is the concept of original sin that now has some Christians baptizing babies, as they are under condemnation of hell if not baptized. Moroni learned from Mormon that Christ paid for Adam's transgressions, so there is no original sin, and so little children are "alive in Christ". After all, didn't Christ tell his apostles to allow little children to come to him, "for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - which would not make sense if these children had not been baptized yet and were under original sin.

Now, in the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 2-5, King Benjamin notes that we all are dual beings: spirit and natural man. The natural man "is an enemy to God and will be forever" until he puts off the natural man and becomes a spiritual man in Christ. IOW, while there is no original sin to lay at the feet of Adam, as Christ has already paid for Adam's transgressions. However, each of us innately has weaknesses where we will invariably sin. That is where the atonement of Christ comes in.

If we believe in original sin, then we must believe, as did St Augustine, that small children who die without first being baptized will burn in hell. Most Protestants reject that concept, but do not explain how original sin fits into the mix in any other way wherein little children are exempted from it.

[abqfriend]

Catholic Church and doctrine of original sin-

Here is a neutral link on the subject which goes into the history of the doctrine/concept as well as what many churches including LDS, Catholic and Protestant believe on the subject.

-Carol

Original sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a Catholic link on the subject based on Romans 5:12

The Doctrine of Original Sin

Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaching on the subject-see sections 388 and 389 then 396 onward specifically

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 7

-Carol

Go back to the original thread [irony of that - LOL] there is a background history revealing that this term called 'ORIGINAL SIN' did not come from the scriptures but mere fabrication of the apostates in the council of Carthage, Catholic Church, held 418 A.D.. This added disposition was again stressed to the council of the church in 529 A.D. and in the Council of Trent in 1546. Although, the doctrine is primarily a Catholic one, it has found its way into the creeds of some of today's protestant churches.

[BenRaines]

I guess it depends on what to you defines Original Sin. Am I responsible for Original Sin? Do I have something to request forgiveness of for Original Sin?

I would say that I am responsible for my own sins and mine alone.

Ben Raines

[abqfriend]

Hi,

I am a Catholic. Your statement is simply not true for current Catholic understanding of Baptism. I do not know what other churches may say.

Differences on Baptism exist between LDS and Catholic, but here is a more current understanding of the Catholic view.

---Here is a neutral- non-Catholic link on the subject of infant Baptism:

here is one section: of the link:Infant baptism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Church has no official teaching regarding the fate of infants who die without Baptism, and theologians of the Church hold various views (for instance, some have asserted that they go to Limbo, which has never been official Catholic doctrine). "The Church entrusts these infants to the mercy of God"

Here is a Catholic Link from Pope Benedict XVI on the subject

Unbaptised children out of limbo, Benedict rules

""Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision (of God),"

Here is the official Vatican document on the subject;

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

-Carol

baptism of Infants

In the Book of Moses, we read that the concept of original sin was rejected once the people had learned that Christ paid for sins. It is the concept of original sin that now has some Christians baptizing babies, as they are under condemnation of hell if not baptized. Moroni learned from Mormon that Christ paid for Adam's transgressions, so there is no original sin, and so little children are "alive in Christ". After all, didn't Christ tell his apostles to allow little children to come to him, "for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - which would not make sense if these children had not been baptized yet and were under original sin.

Now, in the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 2-5, King Benjamin notes that we all are dual beings: spirit and natural man. The natural man "is an enemy to God and will be forever" until he puts off the natural man and becomes a spiritual man in Christ. IOW, while there is no original sin to lay at the feet of Adam, as Christ has already paid for Adam's transgressions. However, each of us innately has weaknesses where we will invariably sin. That is where the atonement of Christ comes in.

If we believe in original sin, then we must believe, as did St Augustine, that small children who die without first being baptized will burn in hell. Most Protestants reject that concept, but do not explain how original sin fits into the mix in any other way wherein little children are exempted from it.

[Hemidakota]

Worthy reading in updating our own knowledge base. Interesting to see the groups opposed to paedobaptism. The last link is 42-pages long and may take some re-read to grasp the footnotes and references to back what is being said.

Thanks again...

Edited October 3, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

Thank you all... lots of good posts.

I guess I'm more interested in the belief itself and not necessarily who believes or does not believe in the term "original sin." I'm curious for those of different denominations to express their beliefs about what actually happened as a result of the Fall.

Ben, you're exactly right. It's not so much what words you use as "a title" to the results of the Fall, but what do we believe happened as a result.

Yes, bytor, I too am very thankful to have additional scripture that helps clarify the effects of the fall.

Hemi, I'm not exactly sure what it is you're saying when you said: Now, [mine own opinion] I have reservation that being left in the garden, as children overtime learned from school the facts of life, if they continued with instructed by the GODHEAD and other ministry personages, could both Adam and Eve learn overtime for themselves the facts of life?

Are you saying you think Adam and Eve could have learned "good and evil" if left in the garden long enough without eating the fruit? Help me understand what you're saying because I have pondered this topic before as well. Or, are you saying they could have repented if left in the garden after eating the fruit? If you're saying you think they could have, then we might have an interesting discussion. I have come to the sound conclusion that they could not have done either.

PC, those scriptures that say no one is righteous can be the result of many things. One possibility is that all have chosen sin. If you believe in Original Sin, do you believe we are "forced to sin" by nature? If so, how do you get over the accountability question?

Thank you abqfriend for your links. I have known Catholics who have shared both views about Original Sin. But, whether you believe in Original Sin or not, what does the Catholic Church teach were the consequenses of the fall? It's been very difficult to get a definitive answer.

rameumptom, I think what you describe was a "convenient result" from the belief in original sin. From the classes I took and study I have done, it was my impression it was more a result of the church and state being combined, and a method to track names for tax purposes, or at least according to the opinion of some who were present during those councils. The belief about infants needing baptism was how they shrouded the real purpose.

Again, thanks all for the comments.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Justice

[abqfriend]

First-there is only ONE Catholic view of original sin-and the Fall of Man and that is what the Church teaches. Any other views are in conflict with the Catholic Church teaching;

Here again is the Catholic view:

See section 396-412 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - TABLE OF CONTENTS - WITH PARAGRAPH NUMBERS

Fall of Man-See above link-Paragraphs:

289, 390, 215, 385, 55, 70, 410

Fall of Man and Original Sin are of course linked in the Catholic understanding of Original Sin.

Here is a rather lengthy article on the Fall of Angels and of Man as espoused by Pope John Paul II from the Vatican Archives:

The Fall of the Rebellious Angels

Here is an official Vatican Link on the subject of the Fall of Man: Starts paragraph 385.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

Consequences of Fall start on Paragraph 400 onward

-Carol

Thank you all... lots of good posts.

I guess I'm more interested in the belief itself and not necessarily who believes or does not believe in the term "original sin." I'm curious for those of different denominations to express their beliefs about what actually happened as a result of the Fall.

Thank you abqfriend for your links. I have known Catholics who have shared both views about Original Sin. But, whether you believe in Original Sin or not, what does the Catholic Church teach were the consequenses of the fall? It's been very difficult to get a definitive answer.

Again, thanks all for the comments.

[prisonchaplain]

Justice, most evangelicals believe that God is just, and that we have inherited a "sin nature." Does that mean we have to sin? The discourse in John 3 between Jesus and Nicodemus indicates that if we believe in the Son we'll not be condemned, otherwise we're condemned already...for our deeds. We're responsible, and God is not unjust. Philosophers may try to wrest from the Scripture some evidence that we a pawns in God's game...but we begin our faith with trust in God's power and character. So, no I will not be judged for what I could not help, but for what I did...though thankfully, the iniquities will be hidden beneath that cleansing blood of Jesus.

[Justice]

So, do you believe Original Sin is something that forces all men to sin? Or, do you believe it is something that gives man the ability to choose evil?

[rameumptom]

From what I understand, original sin is sin that is shed upon all men at birth, due to Adam's transgression. Then, as we sin, we add additional sin upon ourselves.

LDS believe that original sin was overcome for all of us by Christ, so that we are not born inherently sinful in nature. Children, Jesus said, are the type of beings one finds in heaven. We believe Jesus in that. We do believe that our nature changes as each of us begins to understand right from wrong, and our physical bodies can tempt our spirit with its needs and wants. Too often, we fall to those weaknesses of the flesh and create our own Fall from God's presence and our innocent birth.

Only Christ can redeem this from our own choice to sin.

There are some Christians, those who believe in Calvin's TULIP, who believe that the atonement is limited (the "L"), who also believe that there is no free will/agency, and so God basically determines who will and won't be saved. In such an instance, it does seem that God is playing a game and we are pawns. If there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, including repent or turn our life around, then we definitely are pawns.

[Justice]

I read the entire section III Original Sin. It doesn't sound like there's a difinitive answer there.

The Book of Mormon has this scripture:

Mosiah 3:

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Of course, "the natural man" being the condition brought about by the fall in which man can choose evil.

[Justice]

You know, it occured to me today that if man is forced to sin, as some teach, and if man can't decide to do good, as some teach, and it is the Holy Spirit working in man, then what is man good for? What is our purpose?

If this were true then man would be nothing but a pawn that is either forced to follow Satan, or if God chooses, made to do good works by the Spirit.

I see accountability and guilt swept away. I see a gospel that could save no man.

[prisonchaplain]

So, do you believe Original Sin is something that forces all men to sin? Or, do you believe it is something that gives man the ability to choose evil?

We are certainly ABLE to choose evil, and, in fact, we are PREDISPOSED to it. However, we embrace it willingly. And ultimately, what is evil? It is the absence of God. So, when we choose the way of independence, of self-will, etc., we are embracing evil--the absence of good...of God.

[abqfriend]

The Catholic Church uses Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition in the formulation of it's doctrines and teachings . Catholic Church Councils-in some ways similar to LDS Conferences codify understandings of the Church.

These sections may help you.

The link itself-gives references to Sacred Scripture and Church Councils.

-Carol

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

419 "We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, "by propagation, not by imitation" and that it is. . . 'proper to each'" (Paul VI, CPG § 16).

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).

421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." (GS 2 § 2).

Source:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

I read the entire section III Original Sin. It doesn't sound like there's a difinitive answer there.

[ErikJohnson]

This I'd like to hear from LDS--

1. If LDS are immune to original sin and it's effects, why don't we see perfection in at least a few of them? If it's all up to their own free will/fee agency--it seems like one or two of them might get it right each generation. And yet the failure rate is 100%. If not due to original sin--what is it then?

2. If LDS infants are born innocent, as they claim, do LDS children need the atonement/propitiation of Christ? And if so, why?

I look forward to the responses.

--Erik

[bytor2112]

1. If LDS are immune to original sin and it's effects, why don't we see perfection in at least a few of them? If it's all up to their own free will/fee agency--it seems like one or two of them might get it right each generation. And yet the failure rate is 100%. If not due to original sin--what is it then?

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

2. If LDS infants are born innocent, as they claim, do LDS children need the atonement/propitiation of Christ? And if so, why?

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little achildren need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

Edited October 5, 2008 by bytor2112

[abqfriend]

Is your quote from the BOM?

Please give reference-so I can look it up in my "Triple."

Thanks,

-Carol

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; ....—

[bytor2112]

Is your quote from the BOM?

Please give reference-so I can look it up in my "Triple."

Thanks,

-Carol

The scriptures are from Moroni Ch. 8 and the other is an article of faith:)

[bytor2112]

More on the Fall......( from The three Pillares of Eternity; Bruce R. McConkie)

The atonement is part of the eternal plan of the Father. It came at the appointed time, according to the will of the Father, to do for man that which could not have been done in any other way. The atonement is the child of the fall, and the fall is the father of the atonement. Neither of them, without the other, could have brought to pass the eternal purposes of the Father.

The fall of Adam and the atonement of Christ are linked together--inseparably, everlastingly, never to be parted. They are as much a part of the same body as are the head and the heart, and each plays its part in the eternal scheme of things.

The fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world, and the atonement of Christ ransomed men from these two deaths by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This makes the fall as essential a part of the plan of salvation as the very atonement itself.

There are, in fact, five things that came into being and continue to exist because of the fall. None of these things would have existed if there had been no fall, and all of them are essential parts of the divine plan of salvation. They are:

1. Temporal death. This is the natural death; it occurs when body and spirit separate; it results in corruption and decay. Because of the atonement of Christ all men will be raised from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality, thence to live everlastingly in a resurrected state.

2. Spiritual death. This is death as pertaining to the things of the Spirit. It is death

as pertaining to things of righteousness. It is to be cast out of the presence of the Lord. It is a way of life which is in opposition to that of the Father of us all. Because of the atonement, because the Lord Jesus bore our sins on conditions of repentance, we have power to gain eternal life, which is spiritual life, which is a life of righteousness, which is life in the presence of our God.

3. Mortality. Mortal life comes because of the fall. If there had been no fall, there would be no mortal life of any sort on earth. Mortal life is life where there is death. Death must enter the world to bring mortality into being.

4. Procreation. Before the fall there was no procreation. I repeat, for thus saith the Holy Word, before the fall there was no procreation. Adam and Eve, in their Edenic state, could not have children, nor, as we shall see, could any form of life when first placed on the newly created paradisiacal earth.

5. A probationary estate. We are here to be tried and tested, to see if we will believe the truths of salvation and keep the commandments while we walk by faith. After the fall men became carnal, sensual, and devilish by nature, and the plan of salvation calls upon them to put off these worldly snares and to put on Christ.

Now, lest there be any sliver of misunderstanding about any of this, let us reason together on all these things as did they of old. Indeed, let us use the very words they used as they are found in the holy scriptures.

"Now is Christ risen from the dead," Paul said as he testified of the atonement. "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." Adam brought death, and if he had not fallen there would be no death; and Christ brought the resurrection, and, if there had been no atonement, there would be no resurrection. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:20–22).

Moroni linked the fall and the atonement together in this way. God, he said, "created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ." It is just that simple; the fall is the source and cause and reason for the atonement. "And because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man" (Mormon 9:12). Salvation is in Christ!

"And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ," men "are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep" (Mormon 9:13).

What did the angel say to King Benjamin? He said, Christ's "blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam" (Mosiah 3:11). We are descendants of Adam; we all have a common father.

He said, "As in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins" (Mosiah 3:16). The blessings of the fall have passed upon all men; all can be redeemed because Adam fell and Christ came.

He said, "Salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent" (Mosiah 3:18). There is no other source of salvation from the fall than that which comes through Christ.

He said, "The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord" (Mosiah 3:19).

Thus the natural man, which is Adam, is conquered by the perfect man, which is Christ; and thus "all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Third Article of Faith). And now, what saith our great and good friend Lehi about all these things?

He saith that the Redeemer "cometh to bring salvation unto men. . . . And the way is prepared [for him] from the fall of man, and salvation is free" (2 Nephi 2:3–4). The fall is the foundation upon which the atonement rests.

He saith that "after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth" (2 Nephi 2:19). Their mortal probation and the trials and tests of mortality began after the fall.

He saith:

And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. [2 Nephi 2:20]

Every living soul on earth is a descendant of Adam and Eve. God hath made of one blood all the nations of men.

He saith:

If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. [2 Nephi 2:22]

If Adam had not fallen, he would be there today, six thousand years later, in all the glory and beauty of his immortal nature. Such is the word of holy writ.

And next--marvel of marvels and wonder of wonders--Lehi saith, "And all things which were created"--all things means all things; it includes animals and fishes and fowls and creeping things and plants; it includes dinosaurs and whales and ants; it means all things--

All things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. [2 Nephi 2:22]

There was, we repeat, no death in the world until after Adam fell. And there was, we repeat, no procreation until after the fall. And there was, we repeat, no mortality until after the fall.

And so Lehi continues, "And they"--Adam and Eve--"would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2:23).

And then, on the foundation so laid, while filled with light and guided by the Spirit, Lehi acclaimed:

Adam fell that men might be; and men are that they might have joy.

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. [2 Nephi 2:25–26]

Truly, as Enoch said:

Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe. . . .

And men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God. [Moses 6:48, 49]

Truly, as Mother Eve said:

Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth to all the obedient. [Moses 5:11]

Truly, salvation comes because of the fall, and it is just as important to believe in the fall as it is to believe in the atonement, and, indeed, it is not possible to believe in the atonement without believing in the fall.

[Justice]

1. If LDS are immune to original sin and it's effects, why don't we see perfection in at least a few of them? If it's all up to their own free will/fee agency--it seems like one or two of them might get it right each generation. And yet the failure rate is 100%. If not due to original sin--what is it then?

There is no doubt that all mankind is affected by the Fall. All are born into a mortal state where all will die. There is no way to overcome this death without Christ's Atonement and resurrection. But, this is not a result of anything that any man did but Adam. This is why Christ overcame death for all as a free gift. All you have to do is be born mortal and you will be resurrected.

Sin is much the same way. When a man commits sin he is justly removed from God's presence Spiritually. Since we "die" spiritually, we must be reborn, or born again, as a man of spirit, or one who seeks after the spiritual. Christ overcomes spiritual death for all as a free gift, all will be brought back into God's presence to be judged.

There have been some who have overcome the natural man, or the desires we have to seek the things of this world, and have had their "calling and election made sure." We are told in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants that some holy prophets have overcome this world while still living in it. Not that they were ever perfect, because they sinned along the way to overcoming their worldly desires. Even if one learns to seek after the things of the spirit continually, they will always need Christ.

2. If LDS infants are born innocent, as they claim, do LDS children need the atonement/propitiation of Christ? And if so, why?

Infants are born innocent in that they have not chosen evil over good yet. They do not understand anything but to having their needs met. They know no language so they don't even understand "no" yet, much less the more complicated issues like a choice to forgive another or seek revenge.

It really is that simple. So, Christ overcomes physical and spiritual death for them, as He does for all men, and since they have no sin yet they are saved in the Kingdom of God. So, yes they do need Christ.