Discussion on Original Sin

[abqfriend]

Both concepts of the Fall and if infants have original sin or not rely somewhat on extra-Biblical ideas. (Outside the Old and New Testament) The LDS Church uses the Book of Mormon and D&C in the formulation of their doctrines and teachings. The Catholic Church uses Sacred Tradition and Church Council understandings in the formulation of their doctrines and teachings. Both believe those extra Biblical sources/ideas are being given to them in some manner or other by God/The Heavenly Father as they understand those terms.

Despite the differences-the Catholic Church and the LDS Church are in agreement on the sanctity of life from it's earliest creation. Both are very Pro-Life and Pro-Family.

Let us celebrate together the joy of creation and of infants and children and the joy they bring to us, our families and The Heavenly Father.

[Guest TheLutheran]

What an interesting thread. I'm almost ready to put it to bed but there's just one little question that I believe has been asked a couple of times but not quite answered. I believe that I inherited a sinful nature from Adam and Eve. I am not directly responsible for their sin but it has impacted me by introducing a propensity to sin into the fiber of my being and I am completely responsible for my sin and at the mercy of God's grace for forgiveness.

The part that isn't clear to me is how or why innocent LDS mature to an understanding of the difference between good and bad, and chose to sin if there is an absence of sinful nature. A response in laymen's terms would be plenty.

[Justice]

Weakness.

Satan is allowed to temp us and we choose worldly desires at times.

It really is that simple. If it were not our choice we would not be responsible.

[Traveler]

I am currently involved in a discussion about original sin on a non-denominational board. I'll give you the last 2 posts.

Original sin doesn't mean we are forced to sin. It means that we are born spiritually dead and incapable of overcoming "the natural urges to sin that were brought about because of the fall". Of course we are responsible for our own actions, no one is going to escape the fires of hell by saying "it's Adam's fault". The Spirit gives life; our flesh is of no avail.

If original sin was not true, I would find it very amazing that not one single person in the history of humanity was able to be righteous apart from God's redemption in Christ. You would think that maybe a handful of people out of all those billions would have been able to fight off those temptations and not sin. If people are born free from Adam's sin, wouldn't some people avoid sin? So, you must ask the question, why is it that no one has chosen a righteous path on their own? Is it because we were created flawed? No, it is because we inherited Adam's death.

But, He did give us redemption through Christ our Lord.

To which I replied:

Maybe I'm just not understanding. I can be very difficult sometimes... just ask my wife.

But, I see:

forced to sin

and

incapable of overcoming

as the exact same thing.

If we are incapable of overcoming something then we are not responsible when we don't.

It would be silly to drop a glass by choice and then blame the glass for breaking itself. It does not have the ability, or is incapable, of overcoming gravity on it's own. So, if we must sin, or are incapable of overcoming temptation, then we would not be responsible.

What makes us capable is we make our own choices from moment to moment. If that were not the case then we would not be responsible.

What is it that makes one capable of overcoming? Isn't that always available to the man? What is it that makes a man not capable one moment and then capable the next?

I really am trying to understand.

There is a difference between being able to overcome tempation to sin, and being able to overcome the consequenses for sin. Tempation can be overcome, consequenses once sin is chosen cannot be. That is why we need Christ. Not because we cannot overcome tempation, but because we chose to sin and cannot overcome the consequenses that come as a result.

I hope you see where I'm coming from.

Original sin teaches we have the consequenses even before we choose to sin.

I'm not buying it. You have to convince me. That would mean we are equally responsible for Adam's choice... and that would not be fair. That's not the God I believe in.

For a man to sin and be held responsible it must be the result of his own choice, not the choice of another. If that were the case then Adam could have also atoned for our sin, since he was the "cause" of it. I don't believe he "caused" it, but that he made the knowledge of good and evil available to man so that we each could choose for ourselves.

As a result of Adam eating the fruit, or the condition as a result of the fall, God said:

Genesis 3:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

God did not say "the man is in a state where he cannot overcome sin," he said "he is in a state where he is capable of sin." To be as God is not to be in a state where one must sin, because God doesn't sin. But, to be in a state where we can choose good over evil, since we now understand both.

That must be... if we are each responsible.

Right?

Any further thoughts from either side?

There have been several post with important points - I have attempted to thank those posters but am being prevented and the Traveler is being told that he does not have the permissions to give thanks. Sorry.

I have not read all the posts but I believe that there are two points from scripture that are being overlooked.

The first point has to do with the ancient meaning of the title "Adam and Eve". These are more than just names. Their titles indicate that they represent all mankind. This also means two things. First that the beings that we call man existed in some non-mortal un-fallen state and second, that the Eden epoch is also symbolic of our (all man) choice to have a mortal fallen experience.

The second point is why the new state was referred to as "a fall". We are told in scripture that man is forever separated from G-d the Father that is the King of Heaven and all that exist in a Heavenly state.

Two things we know from scripture is first that all that took part in the choice to have a mortal experience are forever banned from that society of Heaven where G-d is King. And two - all that took part in the choice to have a mortal experience are forever banished from any association or information of the G-d that is the king of Heaven. There is one exception to these two conditions of the fall and that is the unique and only Son of G-d that is the mediator with the Father.

Because of the Fall, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is the only true and living G-d to those that chose to have a mortal fallen experience. Beside him there is no other G-d and he is the only mediator with the Father and the way back to the Father and that society where the Father is King. Besides Christ there is no other possibility – which is because G-d the Father – the very King of Heaven created this as the only possibility.

If we had not participated in the fall and therefore separated from G-d the Father there would be no need for us to have Jesus Christ as our only mediator with the Father.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

What an interesting thread. I'm almost ready to put it to bed but there's just one little question that I believe has been asked a couple of times but not quite answered. I believe that I inherited a sinful nature from Adam and Eve. I am not directly responsible for their sin but it has impacted me by introducing a propensity to sin into the fiber of my being and I am completely responsible for my sin and at the mercy of God's grace for forgiveness.

The part that isn't clear to me is how or why innocent LDS mature to an understanding of the difference between good and bad, and chose to sin if there is an absence of sinful nature. A response in laymen's terms would be plenty.

I think you nailed it Lutheran....... After the fall men became carnal, sensual, and devilish by nature, and the plan of salvation calls upon them to put off these worldly snares and to put on Christ.

Perhaps the term "age of accountability" would be appropriate here. We believe that the age of accountability begins at age 8.......children are then considered able to understand that there decisions have consequences. That is why we do not begin baptism until the age of 8. We believe that because of the fall of Adam....we were seperated from God's presense and sins entered the world. We are not responsible for Adam's trangression....but we are recipients of the effects of the fall and cannot return to God without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Make sense?

[rameumptom]

What an interesting thread. I'm almost ready to put it to bed but there's just one little question that I believe has been asked a couple of times but not quite answered. I believe that I inherited a sinful nature from Adam and Eve. I am not directly responsible for their sin but it has impacted me by introducing a propensity to sin into the fiber of my being and I am completely responsible for my sin and at the mercy of God's grace for forgiveness.

The part that isn't clear to me is how or why innocent LDS mature to an understanding of the difference between good and bad, and chose to sin if there is an absence of sinful nature. A response in laymen's terms would be plenty.

We believe that we are spirit children of God, going through a spiritual experience that is required to grow up to be like Him. Part of that experience is receiving a physical body that will tempt and try us, as well as give us new experiences.

While we are saved from original sin through Christ, we all still sin, because this body of ours takes a long time to learn to manage. We can only learn to fully master it through fully embracing the atonement of Christ. D&C 93 tells us that Christ was perfect because we went from grace/perfection to grace/perfection, receiving grace for grace. As a babe, he knew less than he did as an adult, and therefore there was less he needed to know and do to be perfect.

We, OTOH, tend to not always perfectly walk from grace to grace, but eventually stray at least occasionally on the way. Even a small lie takes us off track, and we are instantly in need of the atonement, so that we can get back on track and move again from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, as did Christ. It is through Christ's atonement and through the power of the Spirit that we can move upward from one level of grace to the next level. Christ's atonement gives us agency/free will, and the ability to choose good.

Original sin suggests that we, of ourselves, cannot do anything good. Nothing.

But LDS teaching is that we can do many good things of our own accord, and can do greater things with God's assistance. We believe that all people are born with the "Light/Spirit of Christ" which flows throughout the universe from God. Many call this the conscience, which is why most people naturally know good from evil, and feel guilt when they do evil.

As we listen to this Light of Christ, we can then receive the Holy Spirit as our companion through life. It is like the difference between walking through the dark with a flashlight, and walking through the dark with the car's beams on high.

This allows people to have agency, as not only are they continually tempted by Satan, but also filled with light from God. With this agency, mankind can choose for themselves whether to be good, evil, or somewhere in between (which is why there are more than one kingdom of heaven - 1 Cor 12:1-4).

This also allows people to do good, even if they do not have a witness of Christ. The person who was born in Germany in 300 BC, when no one knew of Jesus, could still live a righteous life, and move from grace to grace in following the light of Christ. Then, in the Spirit World, would have the chance to hear and accept/reject the full gospel.

The Light of Christ allows mankind everywhere to choose and do good of their own accord. Given that we are also tempted of Satan and are struggling to have our spirit learn to control our new physical bodies, we inevitably sin. It becomes part and parcel of our earthly experience, and something God expected and prepared for by giving us His Son to atone for us. In repenting, we are cleansed in Him, and become pure to the level of grace/perfection we are willing to accept/receive in our lives.

As we continue listening to the Light (or Holy Spirit when we receive it), we receive more faith and desire to be more obedient. We have greater ability to repent and purify ourselves in Christ, and move to a greater level of grace.

Of course, a person who walks away from the Light of Christ, loses grace and perfection. "Once saved, always saved", does not apply in mortality. We have to continually seek after Jesus and His grace.

So, for LDS, there is no original sin, as Christ has paid for it. We are only responsible for our own sins, and seeking the grace of God through Christ's atonement.

[ErikJohnson]

Original sin suggests that we, of ourselves, cannot do anything good. Nothing.

Yes, exactly! And has it somehow escaped your notice that the Bible makes this point many times over?

"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

--Romans 8:7-8.

See how Paul uses the same word, rameumptom--"cannot"--the same word you attribute to the doctrine of original sin. Perhaps you'll reconsider now. Or perhaps you don't find Paul persuasive. If the latter, then please consider the word of Christ in the Gospel of John: "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free, rameumptom. Slaves to sin cannot, of their own free-will initiative, choose the good. If they possessed such freedom, the word “slave” would make no sense in the context. And btw, who among men is without sin?

Not happy with Jesus and Paul's views on the matter? Then consider the words we find in the Old Testament. The Prophet Jeremiah--"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil" (13:23). Same theme, isn’t it rameumptom? Once again, we find ourselves powerless, from our own initiative, to do anything good. But perhaps the most telling statement to this effect comes from the Prophet Isaiah, "All our righteous acts are like filthy rags" (64:6). And when you read the footnote on that last passage, you'll see the reference is actually "menstrual rags.” Pretty disgusting, isn’t it? That’s how God sees our “good works”—apart from the righteousness of Christ.

No, rameumptom, there is no righteousness apart from Christ. I think Paul says it best, “I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:10). When Christians do works that are good in God’s eyes—it’s not due to any innate goodness of which they can boast. Rather, it’s the grace of God working within them.

--Erik

[bytor2112]

From our good friend and Apostle Paul:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Salvation is in Christ....without his atoning sacrifice...we cannot return to the Father. It is indeed by his "grace" that we are saved. But we can choose to do good or evil...it happens every day....... regardless of religious affiliation....and we are not powerless. Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind....paid the price for our sin on conditions of repentance....without that we would be eternally seperated from God. But since their is an atonement and a remission of sins made possible by Christ....I will not be judged for Adam's transgression but will be judged for my own sins.......and whether or not I ".....live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Edited October 6, 2008 by bytor2112

[Guest ceeboo]

(1 Corinthians 15:10). When Christians do works that are good in God’s eyes—it’s not due to any innate goodness of which they can boast. Rather, it’s the grace of God working within them.

AMEN, AMEN, AND AMEN :):):):)

God bless,

Carl

[bytor2112]

When Christians do works that are good in God’s eyes—it’s not due to any innate goodness of which they can boast. Rather, it’s the grace of God working within them.

What is working in a Christian when they do evil? Did the grace of God abandon them or did they make a choice? We....LDS Christians......don't do "good" works to boast......we love to obey the commandments....we love the Lord...." if you love me keep my commandments". We do it because we love our fellow man. When we screw up...we repent and endeavor to change....

From a favorite hymn:

As I have loved you,

Love one another.

This new commandment:

Love one another.

By this shall men know

Ye are my disciples,

If ye have love

One to another.

Edited October 6, 2008 by bytor2112

[abqfriend]

As a Christian-I do good works to indeed keep the commandments. I do good works because Christ is my example of perfect love. I try-ever so poorly to follow that example. Love the Lord your God and Love your neighbor as yourself -pretty wells sums up what I should do-and sometimes do.

Yes repentence is very much a part of my Christian belief as well.

Fortunately, I have a God who is just and also loving.

May our Heavenly Father continue to bless each of us with His Love.

-Carol

What is working in a Christian when they do evil? Did the grace of God abandon them or did they make a choice? We....LDS Christians......don't do "good" works to boast......we love to obey the commandments....we love the Lord...." if you love me keep my commandments". We do it because we love our fellow man. When we screw up...we repent and endeavor to change....

From a favorite hymn:

As I have loved you,

Love one another.

This new commandment:

Love one another.

By this shall men know

Ye are my disciples,

If ye have love

One to another.

[Justice]

Again, if by Original Sin we are forced to do evil works, and if the Holy Spirit forces us to do good works, both with nothing required on our part...

what are we but pawns?

We have no choice to do what we want?

If not, how can we be punished or rewarded?

Erik, those scriptures can be taken two ways. Either we are forced to do evil by being a slave, or we have chosen evil works and therefore become a slave. Either holds true to the message of the scripture.

But, only by choice and accountability can we be rewarded or punished.

[Guest TheLutheran]

Again, if by Original Sin we are forced to do evil works, and if the Holy Spirit forces us to do good works . . .

This version works for me: By Original Sin we are influenced to do evil works, and the Holy Spirit influences us to do good works. God has graciously given me the opportunity to choose good works over evil works every time, but when I succumb and the result is evil works I am accountable.

[FunkyTown]

Try asking this: "I have a question - If Adam had no knowledge of good or evil, how could what he did be a sin? He had no idea it would be bad until he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil."

That should net you at least the word 'Transgression' as opposed to 'Sin'. And if Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, he was incapable of sinning.

[abqfriend]

Adam was told by the Heavenly Father NOT to eat of the tree. Gen: 2: 16-17.

Adam disobeyed the direction and command of God.

Define Sin: Going against the commandments of God/Heavenly Father.

-Carol

Try asking this: "I have a question - If Adam had no knowledge of good or evil, how could what he did be a sin? He had no idea it would be bad until he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil."

That should net you at least the word 'Transgression' as opposed to 'Sin'. And if Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, he was incapable of sinning.

[FunkyTown]

Adam was told by the Heavenly Father NOT to eat of the tree. Gen: 2: 16-17.

Adam disobeyed the direction and command of God.

Define Sin: Going against the commandments of God/Heavenly Father.

-Carol

Yes, but he didn't know that going against God's will was a bad thing, or evil.

Define sin: KNOWINGLY going against the commandments of God. For instance, if you fainted on top of a tall building, fell thirty stories and landed on top of someone and killed them, you disobeyed God's laws. You disobeyed them without knowing. Are you responsible for that?

[abqfriend]

God directly tells you directly NOT to do something-and you do it anyway?

-I would call that "sin."

-Carol

Yes, but he didn't know that going against God's will was a bad thing, or evil.

Define sin: KNOWINGLY going against the commandments of God. For instance, if you fainted on top of a tall building, fell thirty stories and landed on top of someone and killed them, you disobeyed God's laws. You disobeyed them without knowing. Are you responsible for that?

[Justice]

Yes, FunkyTown.

It's like telling a 1 year old not to touch the pan because it's hot and if they do they will get burned... verses telling a 12 year old not to touch the pan because it is hot.

The 12 year old learned by experience not to touch the pan, but the 1 year old is still curious.

One thing that most other churches seem to loose sight of is that Adam was innocent in the Garden of Eden, and he did not understand "good and evil" until he ate the fruit. He knew he was told not to, but he didn't understand rebellion and putting his will before God's. He made a choice, but without the understanding of good and evil. He had never known disobedience before.

[rameumptom]

Yes, exactly! And has it somehow escaped your notice that the Bible makes this point many times over?

"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

--Romans 8:7-8.

--Erik

Except you are assuming from this and the other quotes that all minds are sinful. We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

LDS believe that there is a part of divinity within each of us. All are spirit children of God. Therein lies the key difference in our views. We believe we are partially made of the stuff God is made of, and you do not.

Regardless of whether original sin exists or not, no one enters into God's kingdom without faith in Christ and repentance.

[Guest ceeboo]

Regardless of whether original sin exists or not, no one enters into God's kingdom without faith in Christ and repentance.

Hello ram,

Ceeboo LOVES when we can find " common ground " amongst us.:):):)

I proudly agree ( thanks for sharing ):)

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

I don't believe that man is totally sinful or totally carnal. I believe we have both good and bad inside of each of us. I think God gave us each part of himself....something divine when he created us. I believe that we were given the weakness of the flesh as a challenge that would test us and prove us. I think that saying that we are human and bad and sinful is accurate but an incomplete understanding of who we are and what we really can become.

Adam and Eve were innocent before they partook of the tree. We are not innocent. We know good from evil. When a person has knowledge, then they are capable of sin and ONLY after that knowledge is given. This is why children are innocent in the eyes of the Lord. They can and do make mistakes, but sin?

I think that this is such an important topic because understanding who and what God is....and then understanding who and what we are and what relationship we have to God drives all the rest of our beliefs. If we believe that we are only carnal, how would any of us explain the goodness that is to be found in the world and the wonderful goodness of all involved in this conversation?

We are fundamentally good. We are also fundamentally flawed and mortal and sinful. But God has given us talents and gifts and great capacity for good! He has also blessed each of us with a basic compass inside so that each of us know right from wrong. And then, he blessed us powers over Satan. Satan does have power to tempt the flesh and seduce it, but we have power to conquer any and all of temptation and the desires of the flesh. God is wonderful. He gave us everything we need to succeed on our mission here to earth. He gave us power to do what we could do. And he gave us a Savior to take care of what we couldn't.

[Guest ceeboo]

We are fundamentally good. We are also fundamentally flawed and mortal and sinful. But God has given us talents and gifts and great capacity for good! He has also blessed each of us with a basic compass inside so that each of us know right from wrong. And then, he blessed us powers over Satan. Satan does have power to tempt the flesh and seduce it, but we have power to conquer any and all of temptation and the desires of the flesh. God is wonderful. He gave us everything we need to succeed on our mission here to earth. He gave us power to do what we could do. And he gave us a Savior to take care of what we couldn't.

Hello Misshalfway,

WOW!!! BACK TO BACK " common ground " posts :):):) Ceeboo loves it:)

Monday must indeed be a good day for us ALL to come together :)

Thank you, also, Misshalfway for sharing:)

God bless,

Carl

[FunkyTown]

God directly tells you directly NOT to do something-and you do it anyway?

-I would call that "sin."

-Carol

Totally true, ABQ! Just like in my example - God directly told people through the bible not to murder. The guy in my example (For the example, let's call him a righteous man and fully Christian) was told directly, too. Then, he fainted and accidentally plummetted to the ground, landing on someone and killing them.

When you don't know what good and evil is, you can't sin. Otherwise, what was the fruit -for-?