Lds Women Affected By Pornography

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal+Oct 3 2004, 08:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Oct 3 2004, 08:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Oct 2 2004, 11:36 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 2 2004, 07:58 AM

Ah, excuse me? (and bat)----this forum is open to the members on it--why does ForeverMommy think that she has found a place where no one is going to do anything but reaffirm what she already thinks. If she is not will to listen to other points of view, this the  wrong place to post. Remember, this is General Discussion, not Gospel Forum (not that we would cut her any slack there either). No one cuts bat and I any slack, why should we expect another standard for her?

Because you and I and bat come here looking for conflict, we cause conflict and thrive on it. Other people come here for support or advice or whatever and shouldn't been treat like garbage by jerks.

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem?  That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

Brillant thinking counselor, except she didn't know, did she. No she didn't. And how can we tell? Because she said so. Pretty poor response on your part, bro.

Really dumb response, Snow.

Again, rather than deal with the substance of the comment, you simply characterize it according to your own personal slant, rather than showing WHY, it is wrong. Bad form. For example, why is voicing our opinion about her decisions treating her like "garbage".

Cal do you lack even a single critical thinking skill?

You say I failed to say what about your response was out of line - but I did say what it was out of line and it had to do with the poster's intentions. You may not agree with my point, but the point was there. And what is your substantive response to me?

"Really dumb response, Snow"

And then you go on to misrepresent my post - that I didn't say why you were wrong. In point of fact I gave two reasons: 1. Her intentions were not contentious and 2. She said she just found about about her husband proclivities while you lambasted her for marrying him to begin with. I am just curious about when you respond to me. Are you thinking? - I know this is nonsense but maybe I can get away with it anyway. Or I know this is nonsense but I am not interested in being correct or do you not even get what you are doing?

You think she is so weak and helpless that she can't cope with varying opinions? Maybe it is your condecension to her that treats her like "garbage".

If I were a juror and you as an attorney said something like that in court, I would laugh outloud for the idiocy of it. I think you are inappropriate and wrong and in your mind somehow that translates to me thinking that she is weak and helpless. What mental gyrations do you have to go through to come up with that nugget of wisdom? Let me spell it out for you. I think you are off track - her I don't know.

On the second comment. Of course she didn't know, bozo. :)  That's my whole point. She should have.

Well hallafalugha Hannah - sell the farm and let's move up town. Cal just solved the world's divorce problems. Don't get married to anyone if it isn't going to work out.

Hey, here's an idea - maybe if you can figure out a way to tax rich people who are addicted to porn, you can tranfer more wealth to the poor.

I'll bet it was less that two years. In my experience, you can't get much insight into a person's real character with out at least 2 years close association. People tend to hide their problems well for about a year. But, in time, it comes out. That is why no one should get married without going with the person for a couple of years. Otherwise, it is a crap shoot.

I myself had just met my wife, asked her on a date, and 2 1/2 hours into the date asked her to marry me. I was the slow one. After seeing me walk by her for the first time in a store, without talking to her, my future wife went home and told her mother and friends that she had just seen the man she was going to marry. That was 20 years ago.

Needless to say, your experience doesn't match my reality.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 3 2004, 05:17 AM

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

Oh yea, I remember that. SRM, Smac, Danse, and Wade were all trolling there around the same time.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 3 2004, 11:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 3 2004, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Oct 3 2004, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by -Snow@Oct 2 2004, 11:36 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 2 2004, 07:58 AM

Ah, excuse me? (and bat)----this forum is open to the members on it--why does ForeverMommy think that she has found a place where no one is going to do anything but reaffirm what she already thinks. If she is not will to listen to other points of view, this the  wrong place to post. Remember, this is General Discussion, not Gospel Forum (not that we would cut her any slack there either). No one cuts bat and I any slack, why should we expect another standard for her?

Because you and I and bat come here looking for conflict, we cause conflict and thrive on it. Other people come here for support or advice or whatever and shouldn't been treat like garbage by jerks.

By the way, why did you marry a guy with a "porn" problem?  That's like marrying someone with a drug problem--sure they can say they will quit--but why take the chance? If you think that porn is such a terrible vice, why chance that the person will go back to it? Pretty poor judgement on your part, sis.

Brillant thinking counselor, except she didn't know, did she. No she didn't. And how can we tell? Because she said so. Pretty poor response on your part, bro.

Really dumb response, Snow.

Again, rather than deal with the substance of the comment, you simply characterize it according to your own personal slant, rather than showing WHY, it is wrong. Bad form. For example, why is voicing our opinion about her decisions treating her like "garbage".

Cal do you lack even a single critical thinking skill?

You say I failed to say what about your response was out of line - but I did say what it was out of line and it had to do with the poster's intentions. You may not agree with my point, but the point was there. And what is your substantive response to me?

"Really dumb response, Snow"

And then you go on to misrepresent my post - that I didn't say why you were wrong. In point of fact I gave two reasons: 1. Her intentions were not contentious and 2. She said she just found about about her husband proclivities while you lambasted her for marrying him to begin with. I am just curious about when you respond to me. Are you thinking? - I know this is nonsense but maybe I can get away with it anyway. Or I know this is nonsense but I am not interested in being correct or do you not even get what you are doing?

You think she is so weak and helpless that she can't cope with varying opinions? Maybe it is your condecension to her that treats her like "garbage".

If I were a juror and you as an attorney said something like that in court, I would laugh outloud for the idiocy of it. I think you are inappropriate and wrong and in your mind somehow that translates to me thinking that she is weak and helpless. What mental gyrations do you have to go through to come up with that nugget of wisdom? Let me spell it out for you. I think you are off track - her I don't know.

On the second comment. Of course she didn't know, bozo. :)  That's my whole point. She should have.

Well hallafalugha Hannah - sell the farm and let's move up town. Cal just solved the world's divorce problems. Don't get married to anyone if it isn't going to work out.

Hey, here's an idea - maybe if you can figure out a way to tax rich people who are addicted to porn, you can tranfer more wealth to the poor.

I'll bet it was less that two years. In my experience, you can't get much insight into a person's real character with out at least 2 years close association. People tend to hide their problems well for about a year. But, in time, it comes out. That is why no one should get married without going with the person for a couple of years. Otherwise, it is a crap shoot.

I myself had just met my wife, asked her on a date, and 2 1/2 hours into the date asked her to marry me. I was the slow one. After seeing me walk by her for the first time in a store, without talking to her, my future wife went home and told her mother and friends that she had just seen the man she was going to marry. That was 20 years ago.

Needless to say, your experience doesn't match my reality.

Your reality doesn't match the bulk of human experience. Is that what you recommend to people, marry someone you hardly know? Don't you think you are the EXCEPTION, not the rule?

[Blessed]

ForeverMommy,

I am right there with ya sister! My husband used porn for years and years and for the longest of time my self-esteem was so low as I thot it had something to do with me. He no longer uses it, but he is still tempted to. My self -esteem no longer surrounds what my husband does or does not do... my self -esteem is surrounded by Jesus Christ and what He thinks of me.

I pray you much success with this wonderful ministry. Be blessed as you are a blessing to many.

[Matt]

Oh yea, I remember that. SRM, Smac, Danse, and Wade were all trolling there around the same time.

Oh, yeah! That's right!

There was even that clown who trolled using his client's computer systems!!

[srm]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 3 2004, 05:17 AM

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

This simply isn't correct Matt. For a number of years I participated as a regular poster at RFM. In fact I was at times defended by other regular posters when a newbe called me a troll.

[srm]

Originally posted by bat+Oct 3 2004, 11:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Oct 3 2004, 11:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Oct 3 2004, 05:17 AM

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

Oh yea, I remember that. SRM, Smac, Danse, and Wade were all trolling there around the same time.

I don't think that my time there should be lumped with those others you named. BTW, who were you over there? I think that I fit more in with fred...

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by srm+Oct 3 2004, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Oct 3 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bat@Oct 3 2004, 11:53 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Oct 3 2004, 05:17 AM

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

Oh yea, I remember that. SRM, Smac, Danse, and Wade were all trolling there around the same time.

I don't think that my time there should be lumped with those others you named. BTW, who were you over there? I think that I fit more in with fred...

Why, are you better than those guys somehow?

[srm]

My big concern here is that people with little or no training are giving a person advice regarding an issue and a situation about which they no very little. This couple needs professional help not untrained people telling them what to do. And, you're right I should not just single out the ex/anti mormons...but they were the ones that WERE giving out such advice

[Matt]

I was Matt over there, too. Multiple IDs give me a headache!

The only reason advice is given by untrained people here is that people here were asked for it.

[srm]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 3 2004, 03:39 PM

I was Matt over there, too. Multiple IDs give me a headache!

The only reason advice is given by untrained people here is that people here were asked for it.

I'm sorry that was for bat...I wanted to know who he was over there.

You are right...she was asking for advice. It seems that she was deeply troubled and those responses could only make it worse...the advice prolly shuda bin...get to a counselor. But your point is well taken. I reminds me of Bill Clark over on RFM...Do you remember? My advice there was the same. Don't listen to us...get to a counselor.

[Guest bat]

I'm sorry that was for bat...I wanted to know who he was over there.

Oddly enough, I have always posted there as bat. I haven't posted there much so it wouldn't surprise me if you never saw my name there.

You are right...she was asking for advice.  It seems that she was deeply troubled and those responses could only make it worse...the advice prolly shuda bin...get to a counselor.

She has one.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 3 2004, 03:34 PM

My big concern here is that people with little or no training are giving a person advice regarding an issue and a situation about which they no very little. This couple needs professional help not untrained people telling them what to do. And, you're right I should not just single out the ex/anti mormons...but they were the ones that WERE giving out such advice

Isn't that what a Bishop does?

[srm]

Originally posted by bat+Oct 3 2004, 03:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Oct 3 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Oct 3 2004, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by -bat@Oct 3 2004, 11:53 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Oct 3 2004, 05:17 AM

As it happens Dravin, I can recall when SRM used to Troll on the RFM ex-Mormon board. And as a former moderator over there, I DO know that SRM used to troll there. Of course, he would seen it as being a witness to the "Gospel", we called it trolling for converts.

Oh yea, I remember that. SRM, Smac, Danse, and Wade were all trolling there around the same time.

I don't think that my time there should be lumped with those others you named. BTW, who were you over there? I think that I fit more in with fred...

Why, are you better than those guys somehow?

I didn't bejave like they did.

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 3 2004, 04:11 PM

You are right...she was asking for advice. It seems that she was deeply troubled and those responses could only make it worse...the advice prolly shuda bin...get to a counselor. But your point is well taken. I reminds me of Bill Clark over on RFM...Do you remember? My advice there was the same. Don't listen to us...get to a counselor.

No,

She did not ask for advice, she only invited like-minded people to join her at another website where no flaming was allowed and that is why it is ill-intention for people to jump her case. And she IS seeing a counselor.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Cal+Oct 3 2004, 08:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Oct 3 2004, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Oct 2 2004, 10:44 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Franken@Oct 2 2004, 01:36 AM

Many women feel betrayed and demeaned when they find their spouses or significant others looking at/acting out to pornography

I would think that along with feeling betrayed and demeaned, what happens to your trust? How could you feel like you could trust your husband anymore after however long he had kept it a secret from you? I'd say that's one of the biggest impacts.

The simple answer to that is for it NOT TO BE A SECRET! Untabboo this particular "vice", and recognize it as a normal and natural thing that humans do, some more than others. Keep it private, of course! But don't obsess over it and force it to become hidden and depraved. Simply masterbating and looking at people getting it on is considered a "sin" by some, but not by most. Keep in mind that this doesn't make the person depraved or perverted. Looking is far far different than going out and doing it.

If animals can become conditioned to particular behaviours in return for recieving a "reward" of some sort (usually food, heh!) what does it say about the morality of their behaviour? Would we say the chicken was "addicted" to pressing the bar in order to randomly recieve some grain? Does it have a "moral problem" because it has learned to experience some pleasure and reward by obsessively doing something as "abnormal" for a chicken as spending all it's time pusshing a bar? Is the chicken a "sinner"?

Habits can be broken, and it should be up to the person to decide if he/she has a habit that IS a problem, in the way that Snow describes: " Someone who is really addicted to porn is unfaithful by virtue of the time energy and passion, albeit twisted and unhealthy that they put into a sexual persuit that doesn't involve their spouse." If a partner is engaged in anything to the exclusion of their spouse, then they do have a problem and should work on that. Be it woodworking or hunting or shopping or knitting or tossing lawn darts or spending all their time on LDS chat boards! heh!

I agree with most of what you said, except the part about doing anything to the exclusion of your spouse. Are you suggesting that I have to include my spouse in EVERYTHING I do? Most people have some hobbies or activities that they do that is their own thing. I love watching my favorite college team play football. My wife doesn't really like football. She doesn't care that I do, and has not problem with it. We spend plenty of time do certain things together--movies, going out to eat etc. Why can't couple have some activities that are their own thing. In fact, I think it strange and unhealthy NOT to.

Different pleasures and pursuits are NOT a bad thing! I did not mean to imply that. However, if one partner pursues their individual interests OBSESSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY, then there is a problem!

[Dravin]

Do they not prey on the misfortunes or spiritual emptiness of others to convert people to their religion?  Think about it and get back to me.

Statements like the above make me wonder what curvette was smoking when she called you thought provoking.

That isn't trolling, not in the Internet sense, trolling is making inflammatory statements with the purpose of getting negative reactions out of people for your own amusement.

[Ray]

The good news is that people can benefit by hearing from people who make slanderous yet “thought provoking” comments against the doctrine and kingdom of Jesus, as long as people then seek and receive counsel from Jesus to help them understand the truth.

Jesus allows Lucifer to go on the way he does, after all.

Yet I wonder why people prefer to argue like the devil instead of seeking and trying to persuade people to seek Jesus’ counsel?

[Franken]

If y'all listened to general conference, I think you should have a pretty good idea on your answers to all these questions along with the severity of pornography.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+ Oct 2 2004, 07:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 2 2004, 07:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bat,

1. Gambling addiction is not an obsession with greed. Look into it. It is the 'gambling' that they are addicted to - they are psychologically addicted to the charge they get from it - not greed.

2. Cocaine is not a chemical, as in a physical, addiction. It is a psychological addiction.

3. Addiction to porn is a psychological addiction also.

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@ Oct 2 2004, 11:36 AM

speaking to Cal:

…you and I and bat come here looking for conflict, we cause conflict and thrive on it. Other people come here for support or advice or whatever and shouldn't be treated like garbage by jerks.

Ahh, very telling. I will now retire from the board again so as to keep myself from becoming addicted to something not entirely beneficial and continue to pray that we will all become addicted to only those things which are virtuous and lovely.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 4 2004, 03:14 PM

The good news is that people can benefit by hearing from people who make slanderous yet “thought provoking” comments against the doctrine and kingdom of Jesus, as long as people then seek and receive counsel from Jesus to help them understand the truth.

Jesus allows Lucifer to go on the way he does, after all.

Yet I wonder why people prefer to argue like the devil instead of seeking and trying to persuade people to seek Jesus’ counsel?

And what exactly did Jesus say about either pornography or masterbation?

[Blessed]

He didn't spell it out, but what he did say was if you look at a woman with lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. He also said if your hand makes you sin then cut it off. He also says to stay away from sinful situations, etc. He didn't have to spell it out... this is clear enough for me.

[john doe]

He also said if your hand makes you sin then cut it off.

I gotta admit that even as a believing LDS, I never thought of this passage as having anything to do with masturbation before.

[Franken]

That's a good way to put it Blessed.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Blessed@Oct 4 2004, 07:44 PM

He didn't spell it out, but what he did say was if you look at a woman with lust you have already committed adultery in your heart. He also said if your hand makes you sin then cut it off. He also says to stay away from sinful situations, etc. He didn't have to spell it out... this is clear enough for me.

I'm by no means promoting pornography, but let's get a little analytical: First, is there a difference between "a woman" and a picture of a woman? Second, is committing "adultery in your heart" actually a sin. If so, where did Jesus say it was?

Third, when was the last time a church leader recommended that someone cut their hand off?