Abortion is an assult on the defenseless.

[MarginOfError]

We all have the choice to murder. But if we choose to do so then we will pay for it. In this life or what comes after, we will be judged. Just because we have the "choice" does not make it right.

The mothers choice was the night she decided to have sex. Once the life was made the only choice (outside of murder) is if you should keep the child or put them up for adoption. The idea that is about men wanting to "control" your body is absurd. That is just an diversion tactic to try and get away from the fact that these women are murdering their own children. A person who would do that really has no business with a child in my opinion but the child should not have to pay for it, give the child a chance at life and put them up for adoption.

I am sure glad my mother chose to keep me and not murder me. I am sure most other people feel the same way. Some people though survive their parents attempt to murder them. Like this lady Gianna Jessen.

Here is a link to her story and how she is alive today in spite of many attempts to murder her. She still bears the scars but as a strong person she pushed on and lived!

Survivors of Abortion - Gianna Jenssen.

It may be worthwhile to point out that the LDS policies toward abortion do not categorize it as being as severe as murder. As chief piece of evidence--men and women who wish to join the Church but have had, encouraged, or provided for an abortion must receive clearance from the mission president before they can be baptized. Receiving clearance from the mission president can take as little as a 30 minute interview. On the other hand, those who have committed murder require clearance from the First Presidency, a process that requires much more time and effort at a minimum.

So the whole notion of abortion is the same as murder doesn't quite stand in the Church. There are many members whose own interpretation of the issue is that they are, but let's be clear that it is their interpretation (to which they have every right).

[Hemidakota]

I've always wondered how those of LDS faith who live in countries where only one child is the law handle these situations.

China? Hard...

[Hemidakota]

It may be worthwhile to point out that the LDS policies toward abortion do not categorize it as being as severe as murder. As chief piece of evidence--men and women who wish to join the Church but have had, encouraged, or provided for an abortion must receive clearance from the mission president before they can be baptized. Receiving clearance from the mission president can take as little as a 30 minute interview. On the other hand, those who have committed murder require clearance from the First Presidency, a process that requires much more time and effort at a minimum.

So the whole notion of abortion is the same as murder doesn't quite stand in the Church. There are many members whose own interpretation of the issue is that they are, but let's be clear that it is their interpretation (to which they have every right).

Correct. But in the near future that may change.

[Savio]

It may be worthwhile to point out that the LDS policies toward abortion do not categorize it as being as severe as murder. As chief piece of evidence--men and women who wish to join the Church but have had, encouraged, or provided for an abortion must receive clearance from the mission president before they can be baptized. Receiving clearance from the mission president can take as little as a 30 minute interview. On the other hand, those who have committed murder require clearance from the First Presidency, a process that requires much more time and effort at a minimum.

So the whole notion of abortion is the same as murder doesn't quite stand in the Church. There are many members whose own interpretation of the issue is that they are, but let's be clear that it is their interpretation (to which they have every right).

This is true. The Church does not treat abortion the same as murder. However, they do treat it as "like unto it". It is still a terrible thing. Worse than any other sin besides murder.

That it is not exactly the same, is not a good argument that abortion is not bad. And even if it is not murder, it is hard to argue that it does not end a human life or stop a human heart from beating, or stop an independent nervous system.

[kurisuchina]

I liked the very very first question that started this post, and the thread seems to have gone off topic from there. What do we do as members of the church to fight the war of abortion?

Well I've read through the posts and someone said that we need to stop demonizing each other. True, this is a war, but true, we are members of the church. We are supposed to be a cut above the rest. In conference we were told that if someone attacks our beliefs we need to respond respectfully and aggressively. Elder Hales said that when we become aggressive we stop arguing about what is the truth and we start arguing about who is right. The truth is truth and it will win out in the end. So there is no need to be derogatory or disrespectful. We shouldn't villainous those who may have chosen an abortion for whatever reason. Yes, it is hard to have our sins pointed out, but it especially hard when it is done by someone who doesn't know or understand us. It does tend to drive people away.

I am very much pro-life. And I have become more pro-life since having my first child. Talking about abortion has actually become a very emotional thing for me and it pains me to think of the sweet little children of god who are denied a chance for life. Whenever I talk about abortion I inevitably have to grab my son and hug him and love him because he is so precious, and all little children are precious. I always think that those little babies who are aborted would have grown to be just as sweet and precious as my son. I heard his heartbeat when I was less than 6 weeks pregnant and I knew from that very moment that there was a little life and a little person growing inside of me. From the day I found out I was pregnant, I never thought of him as a fetus or an embryo but as a little baby. A little, tiny, sweet, innocent person.

People could debate all day about when a fetus becomes a person. But do you know what? No matter what conclusion you come to, abortion is still wrong. Why? Because God has given to each one of us the power of creation. When we engage in that creative process (sex--yes it really is for making babies) we are engaging in a godly process. It is a divine process that God has entrusted to us. And when we engage in that process of creation, and then choose to terminate that which we have created, we are making a mockery of the whole process. The main purpose of sex, between a husband and wife, is to bring God's children into this world. To take the creative process out of sex is to turn it into nothing more than an act of selfishness. It takes all the godliness out of it. It undermines the plan of salvation, which places in mortal bodies, in families on this earth. And when we terminate the pregnancy it is like saying "God, you can't decide when to send your children to this earth. It's my choice." It isn't just about whether the fetus is a living person or not and as members of the church who understand God's plan it should be even more important to us. Abortion is wrong because it makes a mockery of God's plan.

But back to the original question. How do we fight the war on abortion? The person who started this thread also said that it has to start in our families. I totally agree. We have to teach our children about the plan of salvation and the proclamation on the family. We have to teach our children about the importance of marriage of abstinence until marriage. But we also have to be close to our children so that if they do make a mistake they know that we are there for them and we can encourage them and help them.

Our families are only the beginning though. As members of the church we can't say "I'll take care of my family and you take care of yours and the world will be okay." As members of the church it is our responsibility to spread the teachings of the gospel to the world. Someone mentioned missionary work. It is so important that we tell others about the Lord's plan. As people come to understand the Lord's plan more they will come to respect each individual life more. So yes, missionary work is powerful tool in fighting abortion and all other practices that don't pertain to the Lord's teachings.

But action will never happen if we just talk about it. Be involved in organizations that support the right to life. Help educate others, not just your own family. Also, vote for government officials who will also support the right to life. Abortions of convenience will only stop if there is a law to stop them. Look at politicians' voting records in your county, state, etc who will uphold the right to life. Also, did you know that more and more schools are not teaching abstinence in their sex education classes? Be involved in our schools system and look for government officials who will support the teaching of abstinence in sex ed classes. Teaching about birth control isn't enough. The church encourages us every year to look carefully at the candidates before voting and I believe that it is especially important when talking about issues like abortion.

[MarginOfError]

This is true. The Church does not treat abortion the same as murder. However, they do treat it as "like unto it". It is still a terrible thing. Worse than any other sin besides murder.

That it is not exactly the same, is not a good argument that abortion is not bad. And even if it is not murder, it is hard to argue that it does not end a human life or stop a human heart from beating, or stop an independent nervous system.

I'll come back to this later, but just to clarify, I did not say abortion was 'not bad.' I merely stated it is not the position of the Church that it is equivalent to murder. Please try to keep my statement in their proper perspective.

[MarginOfError]

But action will never happen if we just talk about it. Be involved in organizations that support the right to life. Help educate others, not just your own family. Also, vote for government officials who will also support the right to life. Abortions of convenience will only stop if there is a law to stop them. Look at politicians' voting records in your county, state, etc who will uphold the right to life. Also, did you know that more and more schools are not teaching abstinence in their sex education classes? Be involved in our schools system and look for government officials who will support the teaching of abstinence in sex ed classes. Teaching about birth control isn't enough. The church encourages us every year to look carefully at the candidates before voting and I believe that it is especially important when talking about issues like abortion.

As long as you're talking about comprehensive sex education (covering both abstinence and prophylactics) I agree. But it's pretty clear that abstinence only education is even less effective than prophylactic only education.

And I say again, you can fight against abortion while still voting pro-choice. Educating our families and children, sharing the gospel, and persuading people to true and proper principles will ultimately, I believe, be more effective at stopping elective abortion than any legislation will be.

(I swear some day I'm going to write up a giant reference post on this issue so that I don't ever have to write about it again)

[Fiannan]

And I say again, you can fight against abortion while still voting pro-choice.

Actually, I find it more consistant for a person not to believe the child in the womb is a human being and deserving protection to be pro-choice.

If one believes the child is human, and votes pro-choice then you are saying that it is a human being but you don't care if it is killed.

Brings to mind something I heard somewhere about "Be ye therefore hot or cold" and that a particular someone who found you "lukewarm" would spew you out.

[MarginOfError]

Actually, I find it more consistant for a person not to believe the child in the womb is a human being and deserving protection to be pro-choice.

If one believes the child is human, and votes pro-choice then you are saying that it is a human being but you don't care if it is killed.

Brings to mind something I heard somewhere about "Be ye therefore hot or cold" and that a particular someone who found you "lukewarm" would spew you out.

Must we really take up this discussion again? I've stated a few times on this board that I find abortion to be abhorrent. It is you that is saying that I don't care if a fetus is aborted. I can only imagine you say it because you can't comprehend that someone would discourage an action and still vote for it to remain legal.

Each and every abortion is an absolute tragedy. I would like to prevent every single one of them. Instead of legislating my preference, I would rather persuade those who seek an abortion that it would be better not to have one.

[Elphaba]

Also, did you know that more and more schools are not teaching abstinence in their sex education classes?

Call for references.

Many school districts, especially those where Christianity is strongly embedded, have insisted on an abstinence-only approach to sexual education.

However, numerous studies have found that abstinence-only programs do not work. To address this problem, school districts are adopting more comprehensive sex ed curriculum that includes information about birth control, etc.

So they are not deleting abstinence from the program; rather, they’re expanding the programs and including more information. But abstinence is always emphasized as the only way to prevent getting pregnant or contracting a STD.

Are there some schools that do not teach abstinence only? I highly doubt it. But if this were true, it's not "more and more." And I cannot imagine these students' parents, and the Boards of Education, would allow abstinence to be omitted from the sex ed curriculum.

Elphaba

[JcDean78]

Here is your first ref, my school. When i was in high school abstinence was not dicussed at all. Neither was it in any of the other schools in my area (I know because I had friends there too). We were given condoms, we talked about other types of protection, std's, and then of course babies. Not once was abstinence brought up.

I agree with Fiannan that if you see the child as a child and still feel compelled to vote pro-abortion then you are saying it is ok to murder. I will remember that for the next time in my life somebody comes along and they are inconvient to deal with, especially some fool at work.

The Church has been somewhat vauge about Abortion and the interview process does help shed some light on it. But then again I have a feeling that will change soon. We can look to the scriptures and see that murder is wrong and following the spirit I know that allowing these children to be murdered is WRONG and sinful.

Again I say, anyone that supports this barbaric murdering of our children should be locked up. In this life or the next, we will all be held accountable.

[MarginOfError]

Here is your first ref, my school. When i was in high school abstinence was not dicussed at all. Neither was it in any of the other schools in my area (I know because I had friends there too). We were given condoms, we talked about other types of protection, std's, and then of course babies. Not once was abstinence brought up.

Those schools were wrong to do so.

I agree with Fiannan that if you see the child as a child and still feel compelled to vote pro-abortion then you are saying it is ok to murder. I will remember that for the next time in my life somebody comes along and they are inconvient to deal with, especially some fool at work.

I wonder when people will figure out that pro-choice is not the logical equivalent of pro-abortion. To tell me that I support abortion on the basis that I am not comfortable legislating it's categorical illegality is a a bold faced lie.

[Elphaba]

Here is your first ref, my school. When i was in high school abstinence was not dicussed at all. Neither was it in any of the other schools in my area (I know because I had friends there too). We were given condoms, we talked about other types of protection, std's, and then of course babies. Not once was abstinence brought up.

Thank you for the info Jc. I agree with MOE, this was the wrong approach.

However, my point was that currently more schools are adapting previous abstinence-only programs into comprehensive curriculum that still contain abstinence, but also include other sex ed information.

So when kurisuchina said schools were dropping abstinance from the sex ed curriculum, that is what I want references for. I want references that this is happening today, not in the past.

I hope that makes sense.

Elphaba

[rastler000]

Here is your first ref, my school. When i was in high school abstinence was not dicussed at all. Neither was it in any of the other schools in my area (I know because I had friends there too). We were given condoms, we talked about other types of protection, std's, and then of course babies. Not once was abstinence brought up.

I agree with Fiannan that if you see the child as a child and still feel compelled to vote pro-abortion then you are saying it is ok to murder. I will remember that for the next time in my life somebody comes along and they are inconvient to deal with, especially some fool at work.

The Church has been somewhat vauge about Abortion and the interview process does help shed some light on it. But then again I have a feeling that will change soon. We can look to the scriptures and see that murder is wrong and following the spirit I know that allowing these children to be murdered is WRONG and sinful.

Again I say, anyone that supports this barbaric murdering of our children should be locked up. In this life or the next, we will all be held accountable.

I am pro-choice..... when should I expect my jail sentence? Boy, with about half the people basically pro-choice to some extent..... it is going to be crowded. Where are we going to put all of us?

[Hemidakota]

The Sun has plenty of room..... :)

[Hemidakota]

The Church has been somewhat vauge about Abortion and the interview process does help shed some light on it. But then again I have a feeling that will change soon. We can look to the scriptures and see that murder is wrong and following the spirit I know that allowing these children to be murdered is WRONG and sinful.

The church is not that vague on abortion but there is something coming in the near future to adress this problem.

[rastler000]

The Sun has plenty of room..... :)

That could work.....

.... LOL, if I had a dollar for everytime some religious person has consigned me to a hot place I'd have my house and car paid off.

[Hemidakota]

It goes to show, lack of truth or knowledge of what is, is quite clear.

[MarginOfError]

The Sun has plenty of room..... :)

Now I no longer regret having spent $100 on sunglasses

[Hemidakota]

I do laugh at those who think HELL is a place of 'fire and brimstone' literally. If it was, please send me there to be purged and cleanse.

As with Astro-Physists who believe the Stars involve as a gaseous giant prior before being molded as a regular planet.

[kurisuchina]

Talking about the whole abstinence thing, I wasn't suggesting that schools go to abstinence only programs. I was merely referring to the schools that cut out talk of abstinence entirely or don't take it seriously. I know there are schools that cut it out entirely and there approach is basically "Here's a condom, go have fun." Then there are schools like mine that say "Oh ya, and there's that whole abstinence thing but whose going to do that?" I think in many places that still do teach abstinence, it isn't being treated as a serious part of the sex ed curriculum. And I think it should be.

As for legislation on abortion, there are still a lot of women and girls being coerced into abortions. Yes, education is still the most important thing, especially for these girls. But if a girl's parents or her boyfriend talks her into getting and abortion when she really didn't want to, then it is something legislation could prevent. And what about laws that allow a girl to get an abortion without parental consent? That doesn't really promote strong family ties or family councils. And what about laws allowing someone to take a minor across state lines to get an abortion. In these kinds of situations girls who have been raped or are victims of incest have little protection. No I don't think abortion should be completely illegalized. It is true that the church doesn't condemn women who have been raped, or whose life is in danger. So the choice should be available to them. But I think there should be stronger restrictions on abortions and the way to get those restrictions is through legislation. It's not about limiting women but about protecting them.

[OtterPop]

The Church has been somewhat vauge about Abortion . . .

I don't think the LDS church is "vague" on this isssue. The fact that they don't have a black-and-white policy, I think, acknowledges that abortion is not murder and is a legitimate choice in some situations.

I think it also shows that they assume that members are able to work through some important and complex issues for themselves. It reminds me of the scripture from the D&C that says something about those who need to be commanded in all things are slothful servants.

(I don't feel like looking up the exact reference right now -- I'm a slothful servant to my argument in this case. But don't ever question that scripture chases in seminary aren't worthwhile. The only reason I remember that scripture 30 years later is that it was a scripture-chase reference!)

[MarginOfError]

We agree on abstinence education. It should be strongly emphasized that abstinence is the absolute best way to protect against STD's and unwanted pregnancy. I remember my sex ed classes where after each and every prophylactic discussion/demonstration, the instructor would say, "but it'd be a lot easier to just not have sex."

I am very willing to pass restrictions on abortion regarding parental consent for teenagers. There are sensible and reasonable restrictions and regulations that I'm willing to discuss. I also wouldn't have any issue with laws against partial birth and late-term abortion (assuming, of course, reasonable exceptions). This brings up the hard question of at what stage of pregnancy (or time point) do you draw the line. That decision is complicated, even without adding the uncompromising views of the passionate liberals and conservatives. But it's something I think is a fair compromise and should be discussed.

Unfortunately, if a girl's parents or boyfriend talk her into an abortion by legal means, there isn't much we can do except say that the procedure cannot be performed without her consent. If she gives the consent under pressure from parents or peers, she's still given consent.

[Elphaba]

The church is not that vague on abortion but there is something coming in the near future to adress this problem.

Mandatory vasectomies?

Elphie

[Misshalfway]

Mandatory vasectomies?

Elphie

Perhaps professional sports teams to should look into this as well.