The Bible.

[USNationalist]

what a jerk answer. Yes he is responsible for their death- but you have the ability to save one and you neglect to take it- you can not hide behind your rational without being a jerk- just like my mom. Either pick a kid or dont answer my question.

[Ray]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Oct 21 2004, 02:26 PM

what a jerk answer. Yes he is responsible for their death- but you have the ability to save one and you neglect to take it- you can not hide behind your rational without being a jerk- just like my mom. Either pick a kid or dont answer my question.

Get a grip. You seem to think that I would be responsible for that gunman killing somebody. Why would you think that? I am not giving that gunman permission to kill someone. I am not saying that he should kill this person instead of that person for whatever reason. I am saying that he shouldn’t kill anybody. Why does that make me a killer?

And btw, I can answer your question if I want to.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 21 2004, 10:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 21 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 21 2004, 10:12 AM

And yet you would choose to spend the rest of your life here on Earth with your son instead of your husband?

If you saved your son instead of your husband, your son would most probably move out of the house soon after becoming an adult and leave you alone except for an occasional visit, while he would then most probably spend most of the rest of his life with his spouse and his children.

If you saved your husband instead of your son, your husband would most probably live to about the same age as you and thus be able to be your companion as he should be.

If your husband and your son are both prepared to meet God as we all hope to be, then as I see it, the only real choice is between who you would rather spend the rest of your life here on Earth with.  I understand that it would be a great loss either way, but death is not the end of life and considering that we will all be together again someday, IF we are all prepared to meet God, I think we should value our eternal companion as the most precious companion we have.

Ray. I know this may be a shock to you. But this absurd little situation you describe DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN! It's just a little FICTION in your own little mind. I'm through discussing this with you. You do not have children of your own. You are absolutely not even qualified to ask such a ludicrous question. You just go on your own merry way and live in your fictitious little world and enjoy your very strange relationship with your family. Best of luck to you!

Yes, I know that the situation really doesn't exist. I was only using that example to illustrate a point. If the only response you can honestly give is to say that you don't have to make that decision right now because the situation isn't real, then fine. If you don't want to consider or discuss the situation because you really don't have to make that decision right now, then fine.

But I do think it would be good for you to acknowledge and accept your spouse as the most precious companion you could ever have. I know, I know, children are precious too. But your children will never be able to be what only your spouse should be to you. Maybe you'll discover that for yourself someday when your husband is the only one around because your children will have made their home somewhere else, or maybe not.

[Ray]

Btw, in case y'all don't realize it, your spouse and my spouse are somebody else's child.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2004, 03:02 PM

But I do think it would be good for you to acknowledge and accept your spouse as the most precious companion you could ever have.

In a life or death (nonexistent) situation, it's just not about ME and who I want for a companion. It's about saving the life of the child that God has entrusted me to take care of and protect. It would be rather selfish to think of myself and whether or not I would spend my elderly years alone. Really Ray!

[Guest curvette]

And I still say that if your wife says that she would save you before her own child, she is LYING! A mother protects her child first and foremost--whatever the cost. Her life and your life are less important to a mother than her child's life (unless she is seriously disturbed.)

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 21 2004, 03:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 21 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 21 2004, 03:02 PM

But I do think it would be good for you to acknowledge and accept your spouse as the most precious companion you could ever have.

In a life or death (nonexistent) situation, it's just not about ME and who I want for a companion. It's about saving the life of the child that God has entrusted me to take care of and protect. It would be rather selfish to think of myself and whether or not I would spend my elderly years alone. Really Ray!

As I said before, both of them would be in good hands because both of them would be ready to meet God, which then makes it only a question only of who you want to be with you here on Earth. Death is not the end of life, you know. Death is simply a passport to the next realm.

Anyway, I probably went about trying to get some information from you the wrong way. The real question I was asking was who is more important to YOU... your child or your spouse?

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM

And I still say that if your wife says that she would save you before her own child, she is LYING! A mother protects her child first and foremost--whatever the cost. Her life and your life are less important to a mother than her child's life (unless she is seriously disturbed.)

If we were talking about a small child, then yes, my wife would probably go on autopilot when she saw her child in danger and consider nothing but preserving the life of our child.

Satisfied?

But you seem to be oblivious to the real point of my question, which was to ask who you consider to be the most important person in YOUR life here on Earth, other than God.

Are you now ready to answer that question?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2004, 04:53 PM

Are you now ready to answer that question?

No.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2004, 04:53 PM

But you seem to be oblivious to the real point of my question, which was to ask who you consider to be the most important person in YOUR life here on Earth, other than God.

Are you now ready to answer that question?

I'm going to have to go with actor/singer David Hasslehoff on this one.

Maybe Nicky Hilton as a close second bu definately David Hasslefhoff.

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Oct 19 2004, 06:25 PM

You don't need your children?????? I need my children like I need air.

That's so odd.

I too need your children too, but like I need hair. That is, they are really important but if I lost them, then I would just be bald,

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 20 2004, 08:49 AM

I think some people love their children the way they should only love their spouses. Children are a derivative (for lack of a better word) of the love between a husband and wife, and while I consider children to be quite precious and worth all the time and attention they require, they are not the end all and be all of my existence. And I do not believe that they should be.

Now, on the other hand, I will say that I need my wife, or at least a wife who is as wonderful as my wife is to me, because without a wonderful woman to be my wife I would not be complete. And not only because I would not have somebody to love me and be my companion in life, but because I would not have somebody to share my life with me in the way that only a woman can.

And btw, for anybody who doesn’t realize it, I am a man, and I testify that a man is not complete without a woman to share his life with him and love him as he loves her.

Anyway, THAT is the way I think things should be, and until you can tell me that you relate to what I am talking about, I will simply believe that you just don’t know what a marriage is all about or how children should “fit” into this relationship.

...and this dear Ray, and I mean this will best regards, you are a putz.

You would save you wife, as you describe it, so that you can be complete. How selfish. Christianity and parenthood is about selflessness, not narcissism.

[USNationalist]

Ray- it was a jerk answer. Your trying to make some stupid cop out that you think is clever for that hypothetical situation. I never said you were resonsible for killing them- BUT you have the oppurnunity to keep one child alive. knowing that one could live- would you really able to justify yourself in allowing them both to die for whatever kind of self sastifying thoughts are going through your head? Your thought makes 2 people dead- choseing one makes 1 people dead. Which makes you responsible for failing to save a life. Is like a fire man not saving someone froma building when he easily could have and justifying it by saying "the fire killed them dont be mad at me".

<<And I still say that if your wife says that she would save you before her own child, she is LYING! A mother protects her child first and foremost--whatever the cost. Her life and your life are less important to a mother than her child's life (unless she is seriously disturbed.)>>

-sounds like wishful thinking. It would be nice if mothers held to that code, but unless a large majority of mothers are "seriously disturbed" i do not think thats the case. Humanity is fairly domesticated ;-) maybe some of that instinct is just wearing off as generations progress.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 21 2004, 08:07 PM

I too need your children too, but like I need hair. That is, they are really important but if I lost them, then I would just be bald,

You know Snow, I've often wondered how come you seem to have MORE hair at age 40 than you did at 14. Who makes your exquisite toupees?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 21 2004, 08:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 21 2004, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 20 2004, 08:49 AM

I think some people love their children the way they should only love their spouses.  Children are a derivative (for lack of a better word) of the love between a husband and wife, and while I consider children to be quite precious and worth all the time and attention they require, they are not the end all and be all of my existence.  And I do not believe that they should be.

Now, on the other hand, I will say that I need my wife, or at least a wife who is as wonderful as my wife is to me, because without a wonderful woman to be my wife I would not be complete.  And not only because I would not have somebody to love me and be my companion in life, but because I would not have somebody to share my life with me in the way that only a woman can.

And btw, for anybody who doesn’t realize it, I am a man, and I testify that a man is not complete without a woman to share his life with him and love him as he loves her.

Anyway, THAT is the way I think things should be, and until you can tell me that you relate to what I am talking about, I will simply believe that you just don’t know what a marriage is all about or how children should “fit” into this relationship.

...and this dear Ray, and I mean this will best regards, you are a putz.

You would save you wife, as you describe it, so that you can be complete. How selfish. Christianity and parenthood is about selflessness, not narcissism.

You still don’t seem to get it. All I really wanted you to acknowledge was who is the most important person in YOUR life, other than God. I only used that question I asked because I had heard it before and it helped me to find my answer, and it didn’t make ME think that my children are or would not be precious to me. It only helped me put things in perspective.

If you don’t realize it, I was prompted to get into this line of thinking in the first place because you said that you NEED your children like you need air, yet you said nothing of the need you have for your husband. I then attempted to ascertain who you valued more, your husband or your children. I now realize that the answer I was after could probably have been obtained by some other way, and I now regret asking that question because it subverted my real intent.

I think it’s terribly sad to see a husband and wife build their lives around children. In other words, I believe a husband and wife should build their relationship without any regard for children, unless or until they have them. I believe children are the natural result of a husband and wife coming together, but in a situation where children are not produced naturally for some reason, the relationship between husband and wife should not be diminished because children were not the reason the man and woman came together in the first place. And if children are produced, they should never get the idea from their parents that they are more important than one of their parents.

I think one of the best examples parents provide for their children is in how much they love each other, and that there is nothing their children could EVER do to divide them. My wife and I are one, and then come our children. And while our children can also become one with us, our children will NEVER be elevated to any position above us. When children see this example in their parents, they will then have a clear understanding of how a marriage should be, and it will then help them know how they should love their spouse if they ever get married.

Get the picture now? It’s not about selfishness. It’s about setting the proper example for our children by loving our spouses as we should.

[Ray]

Ray- it was a jerk answer. Your trying to make some stupid cop out that you think is clever for that hypothetical situation. I never said you were responsible for killing them- BUT you have the opportunity to keep one child alive.  Knowing that one could live- would you really able to justify yourself in allowing them both to die for whatever kind of self satisfying thoughts are going through your head? Your thought makes 2 people dead- choosing one makes 1 people dead. Which makes you responsible for failing to save a life. Is like a fire man not saving someone from a building when he easily could have and justifying it by saying "the fire killed them don’t be mad at me".

I think you should consider that “gunman” situation more thoroughly, USN. Would you really tell a gunman to kill one of your children?

Gunman says: Choose one of your children for me to kill or I’ll kill both of them.

You say: Okay, kill that one.

I say: You better not. If you do you’re going to be in really big trouble. Do you know about Jesus? Do you know that He doesn’t want you to kill people? If you kill someone, you’re going to have to answer to Jesus for what you have done. Are you prepared for that?

See, not only do I tell that gunman not to kill anybody, I try to talk him out of it. I try to help him understand the trouble he would be getting himself into. And I would never stop doing that no matter what. The only way he would be able to shut me up would be for him to repent or kill me. And if he killed me, he would be in as much trouble as he would be by killing one of my children, so I wouldn’t stop trying to talk him out of that either.

The “fireman” situation is completely different, because he isn’t trying to make someone else choose who will live or who will die. The fireman should try to save whoever he can, and if he has to make a choice about who he will save, I think he should consider:

1) who he has the better chance of trying to save

2) who has the better chance of survival

3) who has the most to gain from continuing their life here on Earth

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM

...and this dear Ray, and I mean this will best regards, you are a putz.

You would save you wife, as you describe it, so that you can be complete. How selfish. Christianity and parenthood is about selflessness, not narcissism.

You still don’t seem to get it. All I really wanted you to acknowledge was who is the most important person in YOUR life, other than God. I only used that question I asked because I had heard it before and it helped me to find my answer, and it didn’t make ME think that my children are or would not be precious to me. It only helped me put things in perspective.

If you don’t realize it, I was prompted to get into this line of thinking in the first place because you said that you NEED your children like you need air, yet you said nothing of the need you have for your husband. I then attempted to ascertain who you valued more, your husband or your children. I now realize that the answer I was after could probably have been obtained by some other way, and I now regret asking that question because it subverted my real intent.

I think it’s terribly sad to see a husband and wife build their lives around children. In other words, I believe a husband and wife should build their relationship without any regard for children, unless or until they have them. I believe children are the natural result of a husband and wife coming together, but in a situation where children are not produced naturally for some reason, the relationship between husband and wife should not be diminished because children were not the reason the man and woman came together in the first place. And if children are produced, they should never get the idea from their parents that they are more important than one of their parents.

I think one of the best examples parents provide for their children is in how much they love each other, and that there is nothing their children could EVER do to divide them. My wife and I are one, and then come our children. And while our children can also become one with us, our children will NEVER be elevated to any position above us. When children see this example in their parents, they will then have a clear understanding of how a marriage should be, and it will then help them know how they should love their spouse if they ever get married.

Get the picture now? It’s not about selfishness. It’s about setting the proper example for our children by loving our spouses as we should.

Uhhh...you are responding to Snow here Ray, not me.

[Ray]

The two of you seem to be in agreement so I really don't think it matters, but I would have said things differently if I had realized that before.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM

I think it’s terribly sad to see a husband and wife build their lives around children.

That's because you do NOT have any children of your own. Maybe that's a good thing. I am so glad that I have a husband who is secure enough in our relationship that he doesn't get "jealous" of the time and love that I give our children. He is GLAD that I love and protect our children. Children NEED their mommys. He knows that our children are the priority right now and he safeguards our marriage since it is a separate entity as well as part of our family unit. And guess what? He loves the kids as much as I do--just in a different way. It's OKAY for different families to do things a little differently. You seem very obsessed with there being only one way to build a marriage and family. If it works for you to build your life with no regard for your stepchildren, then go right ahead. I choose to love and adore my children, and YES, to need them. Thank heaven my husband isn't such a baby that he needs ALL my attention. An appropriate amount will do for now, and he gets plenty.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by curvette@Oct 21 2004, 08:42 AM

It's also a GOD GIVEN instinct to love and protect our children above and beyond ourselves. Maybe in this way we show our love of God, by cherishing the most precious gift He gives us--our children. There is no way you can understand this instinct until it's bestowed on you through childbirth.

This makes me think of this point. Heavenly Father did not sacrifice is "only begotten wife". He gave His Only Begotten SON. Which to my understanding was the GREATEST gift the God of the Universe could give.

Now, doesn't that make you (if nothing more than assume) that our children are the greatest aspect of our existance?

[Setheus]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 22 2004, 10:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 22 2004, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 22 2004, 09:34 AM

I think it’s terribly sad to see a husband and wife build their lives around children.

For this is the work and the glory of God. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.....

Wouldn't it be HALARIOUS if God took you're side on this Ray, and "stopped building His life around YOU, his child. The look on your face would be PRICELESS!!

[Ray]

I’m not insecure, curvette, and I know that our children are precious and worthy of all of the love and attention they require from both me and my wife. Maybe instead of trying to make me out as a bad guy, you will consider my main point again:

I think one of the best examples parents provide for their children is in how much they love each other, and that there is nothing their children could EVER do to divide them. My wife and I are one, and then come our children. And while our children can also become one with us, our children will NEVER be elevated to any position above us. When children see this example in their parents, they will then have a clear understanding of how a marriage should be, and it will then help them know how they should love their spouse if they ever get married.

Get the picture now? It’s not about selfishness. It’s about setting the proper example for our children by loving our spouses as we should.

And in the immortal words of Forrest Gump: "that's all I have to say about that."

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 10:27 AM

I think one of the best examples parents provide for their children is in how much they love each other, and that there is nothing their children could EVER do to divide them. My wife and I are one, and then come our children. And while our children can also become one with us, our children will NEVER be elevated to any position above us. When children see this example in their parents, they will then have a clear understanding of how a marriage should be, and it will then help them know how they should love their spouse if they ever get married.

You're not even talking about the primal instinct of parenthood here. What you are talking about is a social issue. Of course we should not elevate our children above or even equal to the status of our spouce....but when push comes to shove both parents should be in agreance that their purpose and responsibility is to the child that they have been intrusted with my God.

So the next time you want to compair apples, don't bring a bannanna.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 22 2004, 10:19 AM

This makes me think of this point. Heavenly Father did not sacrifice is "only begotten wife". He gave His Only Begotten SON. Which to my understanding was the GREATEST gift the God of the Universe could give.

Now, doesn't that make you (if nothing more than assume) that our children are the greatest aspect of our existance?

Or at least our "sons!" :) (I dunno--my girls are pretty darn precious too--not to mention adorable...)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 22 2004, 10:27 AM

I think one of the best examples parents provide for their children is in how much they love each other, and that there is nothing their children could EVER do to divide them. My wife and I are one, and then come our children. And while our children can also become one with us, our children will NEVER be elevated to any position above us. When children see this example in their parents, they will then have a clear understanding of how a marriage should be, and it will then help them know how they should love their spouse if they ever get married.

You're not even talking about the primal instinct of parenthood here. What you are talking about is a social issue. Of course we should not elevate our children above or even equal to the status of our spouce....but when push comes to shove both parents should be in agreance that their purpose and responsibility is to the child that they have been intrusted with my God.

So the next time you want to compair apples, don't bring a bannanna.

Heh, that "banana" was my main point all along... trying to help you understand that our primary purpose and responsibility is toward our spouse and that our children are secondary to that relationship.