The Bible.

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Oct 26 2004, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Oct 26 2004, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 26 2004, 02:35 PM

lindy,

What I said to Setheus, in the post you responded to, was in response to what he said in previous posts during our conversation.  I think you may be trying to understand what I said in a more limited context.

Not a problem, I thought that the whole thing was to not make a snap decision, and to try to find a differant solution to a bad scenerio.

To sum it up, we were discussing a scenario wherein a “gunman” was threatening to kill “someone” and trying to hold “you” accountable. In that scenario the “gunman” was saying:, “Choose which of your children I will kill or I will kill “everyone”. Setheus and USN then said that they would tell that gunman which child to kill to keep everyone else from being killed, and I was saying that I would “change the scenario” to focus the gunman’s attention on the idea that he shouldn’t kill anyone. And that even if the gunman never did change his intent, and was determined to kill someone, that I would not be the person to decide who he would kill.

In other words, I would not play the gunman’s game, and I would instead try to help him see the “real” situation that existed.

Anyway, if you want more details, I suggest that you read the previous posts on this thread.

[Setheus]

"Setheus and USN then said that they would tell that gunman which child to kill to keep everyone else from being killed,..." --Ray

Where did I say that?

" In other words, I would not play the gunman’s game, and I would instead try to help him see the “real” situation that existed." --Ray

You can't even keep up with the "real" responces I have given you. What makes you think you're going to show some "bad guy" the light?

I think Lindy painted you a pretty black and white picture. You either can't accept it or wont accept it.

Let me share a piece of my life with you Ray. This situation was not exactley as your "gunman" situation but it was a life or death situation.

I had the pleasure of being captured and held in a camp. I had some knowledge that the enemy would have loved to get at. Because of what I knew I could not assosiate with the other amarican's. I didn't want to give away anything about myself and talking to the others would not only put me in danger, but them as well. They beat me. They threatened me with rape. They threatened to kill other american captives if I didn't talk. etc How did I personally deal with this? I "went crazy". I pretended to ride invisible motorcycles everywhere I went. To the bathroom, to be interrogated, back to my cell, everywhere. When I stood up I went through the motions of getting on and starting up the bike. I put my helmet on. And when the guards began to try and "take away" my bikes I would go "buy" new ones. I kept this up for 16 weeks. I told them Bandidos for life! After 16 weeks they arranged to have me turned over to "some people" who arranged for me to be sent back to my command. That was very hard because I wanted to help the remaining americans and britts and some journalists make a plan of escape. But with my intel I had to ensure that was not found out by the captors. But since I was able to get away I reported everything I had learned from my 16 weeks and enabled a Marine Recon Unit to ambush the camp and resue my fellow captives

Now Ray, do you see how a situation as almost endless solutions? I would never resort to "telling the gunman which child to kill" thats cowardace, unrightious, and just stupid. You've got to think outside the box. There is no telling the gunman the "real" situation. He created the situation. Its already real to him just the way he sees it. You have to remember you're in "his world". Figure out what he wants and then make him think its not there. Don't play hard to get. That just encourages him. Be seemingly open and show him you're not worth the time and energy. Look for a chance to kill or escape.

and another thing....NEVER STOP PRAYING!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus+Oct 22 2004, 12:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Oct 22 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 22 2004, 11:17 AM

I find it interesting that you would make that assumption.  Wouldn't it have been an even greater gift to sacrifice Himself or His wife?  Why would you assume that a child is more precious than a parent?

And btw, a man begetting his wife would be a very strange thing.

Ok Ray, since you like to play the "what if " game here we go....

What IF the mysterious Gunman comes back and says, Who is gonna die? YOU or your CHILD? Pick on or you BOTH DIE! Who would you pick? Who would you choose? Yourself and your child lives or your child and you live?

When you realize that you would do whatever the cost to save your child...then you will begin to understand why God giving His Son was the greatest gift of all! In essence God had to do what you proposed in your fist "gunman" situation.....He had to choose between His Son and the rest of His children.

Sin pointed a gun and said, "Who will it be? All of your children or Jesus Christ? And the only reason God allowed Christ to pay for the rest of us was because Christ AGREED to pay! God would not have chosen for Him and would not have forced Him.

I apologize if I misunderstood you, Setheus, but I thought you were using this illustration to show that you would choose to sacrifice one of your sons to a gunman called sin so that everybody else would live.

[Setheus]

Appology accepted.

I'm not man enough to put one child's life in front of another. Thats why I thank God that I am not in His place. He "had" to make that choice. Fortunately for us He had a Son who was willing to accept what was needed and to follow through with it for our sakes. I said that there are endless solutions....well in the broad scope of things there was only ONE solution and that was the Plan of Salvation. Look at the ONLY choice God had if He wanted to redeem His children. He had to choose. And He didn't send His spouse. That wasn't enough. That payment was not high enough for the cost to redeem man kind.

[Lindy]

I think Lindy painted you a pretty black and white picture.

Thanks Setheus.....I wondered if I was making any sense at all.

P.S.You are right......Pray always.....the power of prayer is an awesome tool.

[Lindy]

I would have to say that the ultimate sacrifice would be to give up the life of your child....

As parents, I think we can all feel the pain and the anguish that Abraham felt as he laid his son on the alter to take his life. To be that obedient and that faithful.....

[Snow]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Oct 26 2004, 05:33 PM

I would have to say that the ultimate sacrifice would be to give up the life of your child....

As parents, I think we can all feel the pain and the anguish that Abraham felt as he laid his son on the alter to take his life. To be that obedient and that faithful.....

I like to put things through the smell test. The Abraham story smells fishy to me. If a man today, even if it were the prophet, took his child out to the shred and said he was going to chop his head off because God told him to, we would have him arrested and committed... and that would be the right thing for us to do.

Why would it have been any different back in the day?

[Setheus]

Well Snow, in Saudi Arabia I saw with my own eyes a man beheaded for raping a woman...then saw with my own eyes that raped woman stoned to death for being "impure". I asked the locals around me what was going on and ( I am not fully fluent in Arabic) what they told me was that she did not have 4 adult male wittnesses to testify that she had not "provoked" the rape in some way..ie dress, attitude etc. So Snow there you have it. If that can still happen today then why couldn't Abe have sacrificed his son at the Lords command? And remember Abe didn't live in America or Brittan or Canada

[Snow]

Because that kind of culture and those kind of men are evil.

The Lord, on the other hand, is good and just. We, in this enlighten age and culture and religion, would never dream, today, that killing your child would be good and just. We would recognize it instantly as evil or insanity.

[Setheus]

Then why was Nephi commanded to kill Laban? Couldn't he have just been struck dumb and blind? I understand what you are saying Snow, but in the words of Anne Rice's character Lestat, this is a "savage garden" we live in.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 27 2004, 05:23 AM

Then why was Nephi commanded to kill Laban? Couldn't he have just been struck dumb and blind? I understand what you are saying Snow, but in the words of Anne Rice's character Lestat, this is a "savage garden" we live in.

Oh yes, Lestat! Somehow, I don't think most of us live in the same Savage Garden that he did(n't.) :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 26 2004, 05:19 PM

Appology accepted.

I'm not man enough to put one child's life in front of another. Thats why I thank God that I am not in His place. He "had" to make that choice. Fortunately for us He had a Son who was willing to accept what was needed and to follow through with it for our sakes. I said that there are endless solutions....well in the broad scope of things there was only ONE solution and that was the Plan of Salvation. Look at the ONLY choice God had if He wanted to redeem His children. He had to choose. And He didn't send His spouse. That wasn't enough. That payment was not high enough for the cost to redeem man kind.

I couldn’t tell a gunman to kill one of my children either, and as I was trying to explain, that is not what our heavenly Father did. Even if you want to consider “sin” to be a “gunman” or a killer, our heavenly Father did not tell “sin” to kill his child.

If you’ll examine the fall and the plan of salvation and the atonement more thoroughly, I think you’ll be able to see a great big difference between what our heavenly Father did and what my imaginary gunman did. Or in a nutshell, telling someone to kill one of my children is not the same thing as allowing one of my children to risk and even sacrifice his life to save others.

Btw, I think you may see that now, but the way you went on made it seem as though you disagreed with me. Next time, if you’ll simply say you agree with me or acknowledge the truth in what I am saying, I will be able to see that you agree.