Confused Relief Society/priesthood lesson...

[mominzion]

Ok, this last Sunday, we learned about something that I thought I knew, but I guess, either I don't know what I'm talking about or I do and most of the gals in my RS don't.....

We learned about our intelligences / spirits being immortal...well to be immortal, we must have no end or no begining. That part I understand. BUT, I was always taught that our spirits are born and it is our intelligences that are immortal. Intelligences meaning "energy". From what I understand quantum phyisics to be is all things are energy. Well we know that HF works with all the laws of the universe and has the knowledge of how to create using that energy. For example he knew how to take a rib and reform it into a woman.....he knew how to make multiple fish and bread from just a few fish and loaves....and he knows how to turn the water into blood or the staff into a snake....these examples can go on and on. But I think you get what I'm saying.

So if our spirits are forever, then we are NOT born. Then what would the purpose of a HF & mother be? It really irritated me, but I didn't know how to express myself in class.

You have to understand that I live in the bible belt and our ward is barely a ward size with people that mostly have come from different prodestant backgrounds. Well they can be overbaring at times. I'm not from here and therefor are an outsider, and my ways are not their ways and sometimes that isn't good.

I just want to know...does anyone understand this? If you want a reference, It was taught from the JS teachings manual chapter 17, I think...maybe 18. What are you thoughts?

[Justice]

The physical world is supposed to teach us of the spiritual world.

Matter is eternal. But, that does not mean our "bodies" existed, formed as they are now, forever.

We were "born" of eternal matter.

Intelligence is eternal. But, that does not mean we existed as a conscience forever.

We were "born" of intelligence.

People who believe we have existed forever as a being or conscience are missing the point that we are spiritual offspring of God. In fact, it is an oxymoron. Some of the difficulty comes from understanding what "an eternal round" means to God. He has revealed it in the scriptures.

There is much more to this discussion, and from what I have come to know, we are offspring of God. He did not "create" us like he created the giraff, the hippo, and the fish. We are a conscience being with the ability to make choices and correct our behavior. We cannot be "created" in the sense people think of "creating." He cannot speak and cause us to exist. We are "begotten spiritual sons and daughters unto God."

I hope this helps, even though it is vague.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Justice

[mominzion]

Thank you...I think I was more along the right lines then.....It is just sad that most of our RS believes otherwise. Sometimes I wish our Bishop would sit in on some of these lessons....It is a hen pecking party...I swear! Thanks for your insight!

[Justice]

We have some of those hen pecking parties in Elder's Quorum too. LOL

Yeah, it kinda surprises me how many people believe we have existed forever, and at the same time can be begotten of God.

[Jenamarie]

One way I look at this doctrine, is to try to imagine myself as I am NOW as an Eternal Being. Right now, I have a few hundred thousand eggs in my ovaries (but let's assume they contain 100% of the necessary DNA, rather than just 50%). Assuming I'm an Eternal Being, they too are eternal, but are at a very very early stage of development, and are not sentient. They are not hanging around in my ovaries having conversations with eachother. However, my huband and I have a "power" to bring these "unformed" beings into a higher state of existance, and set them on their path to Eternal Progression to become as we are. But even as eggs, they still had all of the traits that they will have as higher beings. Their spiritual "DNA" contains their gender, their hair color, their personality, etc. They're already who they're going to be, just in a less developed stage. It takes a Father and Mother to set them on that path to further development. They can't start it on their own.

Now, I'm not saying that the Intelligences are eggs hanging out in Heavenly Mother's ovaries, or that Spiritual Procreation is brought about by the same process as physical procreation, but I think as an analogy, it makes this particular doctrine a bit easier to understand. How we can be eternal, and yet "born" at the same time.

[rameumptom]

Intelligence is, according to scripture "light and truth" or "the light of truth" (D&C 88, 93). Spirit is made of matter, so intelligence is made of matter.

It will help to begin discussing what IS an intelligence. In Abraham 3, we are told that some of the organized intelligences stood around God. This suggest to me that there must also be unorganized or disorganized intelligence, as well.

Elder Orson Pratt suggested that intelligence was just a lower form of organization. And atom is an intelligence, which is organized to have certain traits and capabilities. It has a "memory" for what those capabilities are. When combined, atoms can form into new higher intelligences, capable of new things. For instance, Water is made of H2O, 3 atoms which have less capability on their own than they do combined.

Eventually, matter or intelligence can be combined to a level where it obtains higher consciousness: a Spirit. At this point, it obtains greater coherency and agency in its own creation. But this is solely a step on its way to higher levels of creation and intelligence, as we then obtain bodies, and later are resurrected to higher forms still.

[checkerboy]

We are four life-stage creatures just like many animals on this planet. Take the butterfly. It starts as an egg, then is a caterpiller, then is in a cocoon, finally emerging as a butterfly. With us we were always intelligences, then we are given spiritual bodies, then physical-mortal bodies and finally physical-immortal bodies. Makes sense to me that we have always existed yet can move through various stages of life.

[Gwen]

i had a very hard time with this lesson (we did it a few weeks ago).

i believe (stealing specific phrasing from a friend)....we are truly related to God, and that your Spirit's creation marks the arrival of a unique and non-repeated entity that has a piece of God's divinity as an inherent characteristic.

we are god's children. the same way that two earthly parents conceive a child which marks the creation of a unique and non-repeated entity that has a traits from it's parents as inherent characteristics.

i, me, who i am, my way of being, thinking, existing, did not exist before the creation/conception/birth of my spirit. the elements or material that were brought together to bring this about (however that is done) was not me. god did not have the power to create that material, it has always existed within him. he did create me and is my father.

in the same light, my children's physical existence (their way of thinking, feeling, being, existing in this physical/mortal world) did not begin until they were created/conceived/born by their physical parents. we did not (nor does anyone) have the power to create the materials (dna, egg, sperm, etc) that they are made from. that material has always existed within us. we did create them and we are their physical parents.

[Gwen]

i have a hard time with saying the intelligence (the eternal materials/elements that we were formed from) are "us". that suggests we can not be god's children, we are not part of him. it suggests the element is sentient, it has thought, feeling, memory, a unique way of being.

[Justice]

To look at it that way, physical matter is but unorganized man.

The physical world really does paint a picture for us of the eternal world.

Do I need to remind anyone that gender is part of our premortal make-up, and will be part of our resurrected, glorified body as well?

We know it takes a father and mother to give birth to a mortal child.

This is an unmistakable, intentional way of teaching us that it takes a Father and Mother to give birth to a spirit child as well.

Too many people try to out-think this simplicitiy.

[Hemidakota]

Checkerboy has it.

Spirits were not born but created. If they were born, we would be like Adam and Eve - comprised of immortal flesh. Having both parents as immortal eternal beings, will bring forth what type of life? Something to think about. However, this was not the case. Abraham saw what he thought, resembled of intelligences from lower kingdom order of which we are still not privy too know at this time who created them. Could we summarized, if they were brought forth as parental selected intelligences, inheriting created spirit bodies of gender choices, now to become the children of our parents? This I believe were Abraham was allowed to write about. The rest was not included.

I do also believe, these pre-intelligences [using this term to denote prior spirit children], they could of been animals, insects, trees, flowers, birds, and so on...based on knowledge or light received. Seeing the level of capacity they were already inhibiting.

Gender, I personally believe, has nothing to do with pre-intelligence state prior to Abraham resembled spirits but can be had by a hidden key within the [Adam's Genesis] 'Rib story' on who was that ultimate creator. Why would GOD give us an account or presented a story, unless there is something to be learned? Now, I will say, this will open the eye of those who seeked that understanding and have a great love and affection for our Heavenly Parents.

Now, there are many kingdoms below us as there are many kingdoms above us. All of which, can be seen as patterns, from basic atom to a complex mortal body, to await us in the eternity.

[Hemidakota]

i have a hard time with saying the intelligence (the eternal materials/elements that we were formed from) are "us". that suggests we can not be god's children, we are not part of him. it suggests the element is sentient, it has thought, feeling, memory, a unique way of being.

Perhaps! But remember, someone formed these spirit bodies and gave us life prior to mortality. For me, that has affinity to our Heavenly Parents.

[tubaloth]

I was always taught that our spirits are born and it is our intelligences that are immortal.

This actually is correct in the most basic form.

I was going to try to go into on my own, but I think the Encyclopedia of Mormonism probably explains both sides of this as well as I can.

Author: Hyde, Paul Nolan

The word "intelligences" (plural) occurs frequently in LDS literature, having reference to the period of the premortal existence of mankind. The term has received two interpretations by writers within the Church: as the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents and as individual entities existing prior to their spirit birth. Because latter-day revelation has not clarified the meaning of the term, a more precise interpretation is not possible at present.

The scriptural source for the word "intelligences" is the book of Abraham 3:21-22. The Lord instructed the patriarch Abraham regarding the premortal experiences of all who have been or ever will be upon the earth. Among those events was the Council in Heaven, at which the Father's Plan of Salvation for his children was discussed. Abraham wrote of this, "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; …for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them" (Abr. 3:22-23). The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of intelligences as follows: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them" (TPJS, p. 354).

Concerning man's premortal existence, the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29). "Intelligence," as used here, is singular, and it is not clear from this passage if it refers to individual, conscious identity. As noted, Abraham referred to the spirit offspring of God as organized intelligences, apparently using the word "intelligences" to mean "spirits." Church authorities have indicated that spirit birth was not the beginning. Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969). Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, speaking of people's divine origin as children of God, stated, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14). Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle, wrote: Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities (Abr. 3:22-24). Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge, power, and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence [MD, p. 387].

While the revelations leave no doubt as to the existence of intelligent matter prior to its being organized as spirits, speculation sometimes arises regarding the nature of premortal existence and whether there was individual identity and consciousness prior to birth as a spirit. Some hold that the terms "intelligence" and "intelligences" have reference to a form of prespirit conscious self-existence, which included individual identity, variety, and agency (so reasoned B. H. Roberts, pp. 401-423). Others maintain that while these characteristics, attributes, and conditions are eternal, they essentially came together for each individual at the spirit birth. The question of whether prespirit intelligence had individual identity and consciousness remains unanswered. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith gave this caution in 1936: Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual [p. 10].

No formal pronouncements have been made by the leading councils of the Church to clarify what additional meanings and attributes may be assigned to the word "intelligences," beyond that which identifies intelligences as spirit children of God.

Intelligences - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

The way I see it.

Intelligences/ intelligence --à formed/born --à our Spirit --à Born -à Physical Body.

So just as our spirit was placed into a physical body, I always viewed as aour Intelligences was placed into our spirit. Does matter if it actually was placed or it formed our spirit? I don’t think so.

[Justice]

Checkerboy has it.

Spirits were not born but created. If they were born, we would be like Adam and Eve - comprised of immortal flesh.

Not necessarily.

I thought this for a long time too, but it isn't the case.

All things come in order, and this is one of those truths that must come in order.

The facts are, however, indisputable. Heavenly Father and Mother have given birth to spirits, or we would not be their offspring. They also gave birth to Adam's body of flesh and bone. Both are true, and both are possible.

[HiJolly]

Not necessarily.

I thought this for a long time too, but it isn't the case.

All things come in order, and this is one of those truths that must come in order.

The facts are, however, indisputable. Heavenly Father and Mother have given birth to spirits, or we would not be their offspring. They also gave birth to Adam's body of flesh and bone. Both are true, and both are possible.

<clenching teeth, not wanting to get into arguement>

Either way, we are children of God, with all that implies in play.

HiJolly

[checkerboy]

Not necessarily.

I thought this for a long time too, but it isn't the case.

All things come in order, and this is one of those truths that must come in order.

The facts are, however, indisputable. Heavenly Father and Mother have given birth to spirits, or we would not be their offspring. They also gave birth to Adam's body of flesh and bone. Both are true, and both are possible.

And what facts are those? What denotes "given birth." We talk of Henry Ford being the "Father of the Automobile" but let me tell you if he had actually given birth to an automobile he wouldn't have been around to start the Ford Motor Company, which might have been a good thing come to think of it. What about George Washington being the Father of our Country. Let me tell you that would have been some labor!!!

The point is we don't know exactly how to create/give birth to a spirit. We don't know the process. None of us have done it. The only thing I can guess is that it still takes a male and a female to do it, because we know we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother.

Please provide us with specifics on how these facts are indisputable.

[Hemidakota]

Arguing the finer point of whom is right: If the topic is not important to your own edification, then it is not well worth the deltas of semantics of whom is right. For those who seek to know the truths as Joseph Smith sought, it will eventually come to you when you least expect it.

[Gwen]

it does matter.... god is not my father in the same since that one fathers a book.... he is my father in the very real since that my earthly father is my father.

we are literally a part of god. if we are not then there is nothing to separate our doctrine form those that say god is a separate species and we can not or ever will be like him. we can become like god because we are literal children. that doctrine is what separates us from most if not all other christian faiths. if it's not true then what exactly makes this church more true....

[Hemidakota]

This actually is correct in the most basic form.

I was going to try to go into on my own, but I think the Encyclopedia of Mormonism probably explains both sides of this as well as I can.

The way I see it.

Intelligences/ intelligence --à formed/born --à our Spirit --à Born -à Physical Body.

So just as our spirit was placed into a physical body, I always viewed as aour Intelligences was placed into our spirit. Does matter if it actually was placed or it formed our spirit? I don’t think so.

or

Immortal Father + Immortal Mother = immortal offspring.

A quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is is logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits. * * *"

Edited October 15, 2008 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

My point is that only a physical body can be "immortal or mortal," a spirit, once born (or created if you prefer), is always immortal.

We are taught that "things that are physical are to teach of things that are spiritual." I believe this holds true for "birth" as well.

The only facts I said were indisputable were:

1) Heavenly Father and Mother gave/give birth to spirit children (create spirit children if you prefer)

2) Heavenly Father and Mother gave birth to Adam's body of flesh and bone (created Adam's body if you prefer)

Beyond that, the door is still wide open for all interpretation.

I'm just saying that both are possible with "Man and Woman" when they are resurrected and perfected through the Atonement of Christ. I never attempted to explain how. The how is where the differences occur, not in the 2 facts I stated.

[ElderBigDawg]

If you start thinking too deep, things can get way too complicated for my brain to wrap around. That's why I just want to focus on the church and the gospel, then worry about all that other stuff in the next life.

[ztodd]

To the OP, perhaps the others in your R.S. are not ready for that doctrine either, so don't let it cause contention, and don't let it get to you.

edit: OP=original poster

Edited October 18, 2008 by ztodd
explain my abbreviation :)

[Gwen]

from the same lesson....

...God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.”8

thoughts on this part..... it suggests that god isn't even our father as one fathers a book or other project but found and adopted us like a bunch of strays. if that is true then how do you reconcile these kinds of statements (not from the same lesson).....

You are a literal child of God, spiritually begotten in the premortal life. As His child, you can be assured that you have divine, eternal potential and that He will help you in your sincere efforts to reach that potential. -“God the Father,” True to the Faith, (2004),74–76

Do you know that you are a child—a literal son or daughter—of God? Many of you know that what I’m saying is true. You know who you are. You have felt the Savior’s loving, guiding hand as you have followed the promptings of the Holy Ghost and have found the peace I speak of in your hearts. -

Jayne Malan, “Peace—A Witness of the Spirit,” Friend, Jan 1994, inside front cover

(Adapted from an October 1991 General Women’s Meeting address. See Ensign, November 1991, page 92.)

[Hemidakota]

Justice - You need to look up the term 'immortal'. It has no reference to SPIRITS in the pre-mortal earth. Spirits are referred to as eternal beings. Becoming immortal requires a physical body. The difference between mortal and immortal, what is circulating in that human being veins, whether or not one can live forever [that needs to be addressed later] and one that causes death. Adam and Eve were immortal while in the Garden of Eden. It was the fruit that brought forth the changes to both of their veins. This change brought forth death. Immortal beings do not have blood in their veins [see President Joseph Fielding. Smith book “Answers to Gospel Questions”].

Looking for a doctrinal definition of the word Immortality, it states;

Immortality - A state of endless life beyond the power of death, which is obtained following the Resurrection. All mortal souls will eventually become immortal through the power of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. [www.lds.org]

There is no reference that reveals that our Heavenly Parents gave birth to our spirits. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, and Olsen Pratt, stated that both Adam and Eve were born and not created. Can we change the interruption of there statement? Only Joseph Smith did not add or change his viewpoint of creation when he wrote the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham. He was silent on this point.

Even when I listed the statement from Joseph Smith own journal, he did state that the Spirits were created and Intelligence was clothed by this refine matter called the Spirit body. The materials are eternal as you stated, our Intelligence, previous before our creation of the spirit bodies, was not born or created by GOD. Now, I am not making it less important that GOD cannot create intelligences, but stated a case that Joseph witnessed.

[spirits] As eternal beings, we each have in us a spark of divinity. (CR April 1971, Ensign 1 [June 1971]: President Ezra Taft Benson [Plan of Salvation]

I have reviewed many writings were Sprits word is used into two terms: one that explains that a Spirit is comprised of two identities - Intelligence and Spirit body. Then we have the other usage that Spirits are Intelligence and nothing is added to explain this term. I put this down as semantics. Edited October 16, 2008 by Hemidakota

[rameumptom]

My point is that only a physical body can be "immortal or mortal," a spirit, once born (or created if you prefer), is always immortal.

We are taught that "things that are physical are to teach of things that are spiritual." I believe this holds true for "birth" as well.

The only facts I said were indisputable were:

1) Heavenly Father and Mother gave/give birth to spirit children (create spirit children if you prefer)

2) Heavenly Father and Mother gave birth to Adam's body of flesh and bone (created Adam's body if you prefer)

And even these can be disputable. Many of our teachings were given by early prophets that only knew of one way for children to be formed. Today, test tube babies are very common, and the day may soon come when children could be raised in a laboratory, outside the womb. I personally believe that Jesus was a test tube baby. I do not think Father had sex with Mary, as Brigham Young proposed - as that was the only point of reference Brother Brigham had in his day. Instead, the scriptures state that the Spirit overshadowed Mary: suggesting to me that a different process was involved, rather than sex. It tells me that the seed was implanted in Mary in another method than Brigham Young understood.

The scriptures and temple also teach that Adam's physical body was formed by God and Jesus, not Heavenly Mother.

So, I'd say we need to take a long close look at what you consider to be "indisputable."