Bias vs. Truth

[Elgama]

In an attempt to remove bias and stick to the truth we usually add new bias that we don't see yet, reading from another perspective is good but its just a different angle

When it comes to religion we are mortals trying to understand the devine and the eternal with just some of the information, between us we have the whole picture but each one only has knowledge and understanding of a part. Each one of us is made in our Heavenly Father's image so we have a piece of Him with us its like when we see our own children in someways they are very like us, some get us more than others, but each one is different and no one other person understands us completely,... I am not attempting to be unbiased just to increase in knowledge and wisdom because right now I am not perfect so not capable of producing something that is complete truth - its going to be the truth as I understand it right now at this moment. This is why I believe some people praying to know the church is true get a no or a not right now its not their time they have other knowledge and experience to gain before they can reach their full potential - I know without my preLDS time I would not understand the gospel in the same way I do right now

I have studied Physics and History at university degree level and in both you have to forget a lot of what you learn at high school even things that were previously cast iron truths and facts have to be put aside for what is with greater knowledge a different understanding and virtually unrecognisable version of those truths and facts. I actually had an easier time with physics than my fellow students because I had never taken any of it before, and didn't have already set preconcieved ideas of what the truths were.

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

Though I don't think we can ever completely remove our bias we should attempt to recognize it exists and try to eliminate it as much as possible, or at least be cognizant of it. Attempt to look at things from different viewpoints. Doing so I am often amazed by the results and realize that perhaps my thinking on a certain subject might be flawed. I have even been known to change my mind from time to time after doing so. Try it.

I play a little game sometimes when reading something controversial. I will read it again from a completely different frame of reference. For example, when I first read the Book of Mormon I admit I was biased that it was a chicanery I could easily disprove. I was still negative about it after reading it. Then one time I read it I convinced myself to try to read it as a faithful Mormon would, thoroughly believing in its veracity. Suddenly, I wasn't so sure it was a concocted sham. Is it true? Maybe not, but now it is one of my favorite books, whether fact or fiction, and I've read thousands of books.

After reading all these posts and much more on the subject of Truth I am still not sure what Truth is. Today's truth is often tomorrow's anecdote.

Thank you Red eye. I think there is some real wisdom here.

[Elphaba]

Although I would agree with your civil rights offering, I am not sure what you would offer concerning religious beliefs/faith ( a very different animal IMHO " bias does not automatically equate to that bias being wrong "

Hi Ceeboo,

First, I am an atheist, so I think my bias is there is always a natural explanation for all phenomenon people experience, including those that one describes as “spiritual.” However, based on the definitions provided in this thread, I am a little confused as to whether that is a “bias” or not. But I’m going to go with it for now.

I have a strong bias against incorrect information; thus, when someone posts something s/he discovered on the net, and presents it as a truth, I almost always check it out for myself, and more often than not, it turns out the item is not true.

If ceeboo ( Catholic ) does not believe what LDS believe, then certainly we are left with only 3 choices. ( NO ???)

1. Ceeboo bias is wrong

2. LDS bias is wrong

3. We both ( bias ) is wrong

( No other options, do you agree???)

No, I do not agree.

There could be a myriad of explanations for what people believe regarding a god. For example, it is possible that your thoughts somehow cause matter to coalesce into a sentient being who is very real, but is also limited by your ability to perceive it. This then, could be god, but in reality, it’s only your god.

Or, perhaps, we are simply pawns between many gods, as if they’re in a chess tournament. We are ants to them, and they care nothing for us personally; rather, we are here simply to amuse them; thus, explaining the horrific and the sublime. I picture a sort of “Q” character from Star Trek.

Or maybe all of the gods ever believed in by mankind truly exist, but have chosen to manifest themselves at different times and to different peoples throughout the vast history of mankind. Nevertheless, they are all literally real, and their relationships with humans are real as well. Additionally, there may be more gods yet to come.

So, no, religion is not that simplistic, or black and white. In fact, for all we know, it’s turtles all the way down.

Elphaba

Edited October 24, 2008 by Elphaba

[rameumptom]

Turtles all the way down? What about the elephant? Does he rate as a god?

That is a major difference, also, between LDS and other Christian theology. We believe there are many gods and divine beings. We believe, with Job, that the divine sons of El and Satan went to challenge Yahweh/Jehovah for preeminence of Israel (so your suggestion that it is a competition becomes a real concept).

We believe there are truths found in many divine mythologies, as people try to understand nature and God(s). I believe there is a lot of mythology within Judaism and Christianity, as well. The struggle comes in trying to weed through the truths and myths. To the extent that we are believing in mythology, we are in apostasy from truth. Given that no human knows all truth, we are all in a fallen state to some extent or another.

Elphaba, are you an actual atheist? Or do you keep an open mind that there may be something out there that is/are God(s), which you believe we are not able to determine in mortality? I've never viewed you as the Bill Mahr atheist-type.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Ceeboo,

No, I do not agree.

There could be a myriad of explanations for what people believe regarding a god. For example, it is possible that your thoughts somehow cause matter to coalesce into a sentient being who is very real, but is also limited by your ability to perceive it. This then, could be god, but in reality, it’s only your god.

Or, perhaps, we are simply pawns between many gods, as if they’re in a chess tournament. We are ants to them, and they care nothing for us personally; rather, we are here simply to amuse them; thus, explaining the horrific and the sublime. I picture a sort of “Q” character from Star Trek.

Or maybe all of the gods ever believed in by mankind truly exist, but have chosen to manifest themselves at different times and to different peoples throughout the vast history of mankind. Nevertheless, they are all literally real, and their relationships with humans are real as well. Additionally, there may be more gods yet to come.

So, no, religion is not that simplistic, or black and white. In fact, for all we know, it’s turtles all the way down.

Elphaba

Hi Elphaba, :)

Interesting perspective ( thanks for sharing it ):)

" turtles all the way down " LOVE IT!!!!! Do you mind if I use it ???

Peace,

Carl

[Elphaba]

Elphaba, are you an actual atheist? Or do you keep an open mind that there may be something out there that is/are God(s), which you believe we are not able to determine in mortality? I've never viewed you as the Bill Mahr atheist-type.

Bill Maher is my hero!

Yes, I am an atheist, tried and true.

However, I acknowledge that people have experiences I do not understand. You would identify them as something spiritual. Being an atheist, I don't believe it is from a god of any kind, yet I know I have no idea what it is, never having experienced it myself.

I'm surprised you asked me the question. I always thought I was really clear about my atheism. Perhaps I need to get a tad more obnoxious?

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

" turtles all the way down " LOVE IT!!!!! Do you mind if I use it ???l

Hi Ceeboo,

The phrase “turtles all the way down,“ is not mine to keep, so use it any way you wish. I first read about it in Sagan's Broca's Brain.

Below is a Wiki defition and description of the belief from Stephen Hawking's 1988 book, A Brief History of Time:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?"

"You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

Elphaba

Turtles all the way down - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Elphaba]

Or do you keep an open mind that there may be something out there that is/are God(s), which you believe we are not able to determine in mortality? I've never viewed you as the Bill Mahr atheist-type.

Sorry Ram, I didn't see this the first time.

Yes, I am open to the idea there is something more out there; in fact, I'm certain of it. However, I don't believe it is a god, nor do I believe it is something supernatural. In fact, I suspect it is a matter of physics that we haven't observed yet, or perhaps we have, but don't recognize it.

I had an interesting experience after suffering some serious brain trauma. It was not a near-death experience or anything like that. But it was fascinating.

Just a few days after the trauma, I was in my bathroom, and near the shower was this filmy gossamer-like fabric. The shower was brand new, and I thought it was something they put on the glass to keep it from breaking.

Then I looked around the room, and it was full of this "fabric," and even crazier, there was a window open across the hall, and this stuff was billowing in the wind!

So I started blowing on it, and sure enough, it moved. However, when I tried to touch it it disintegrated.

I was also hallucinating big time, but I had hallucinated before, and knew to just let it happen, rather than fight it, because if I did, the images could turn on me.

However, this gossamer "fabric," was completely different. In fact, when I mentioned it to my mother, she said the exact same thing had happened to my grandmother after her stroke.

So, obviously, at least to me, brain trauma had something to do with what I saw. And yet, it wasn't like a normal hallucination. It BILLOWED with the wind. I could make it move.

To this day, I wonder about it. Does brain trauma help us see something that is really there, but that normal, healthy brains can't see? Because this was so real to me.

I have actually seen it since. If I haven't slept for days, which happens often, I start seeing it all around me. Of course, I also see the monsters too, so I try not to look too hard.

I don't believe in NDE's, and if asked what I really thought this was, I would say it was the result of a brain that had been severely traumatized, and is just another kind of hallucination.

But, I also would not be surprised if it were real, and was a part of the natural world that our human eyes cannot see.

Elphaba

[rameumptom]

Bill Maher is my hero!

Yes, I am an atheist, tried and true.

However, I acknowledge that people have experiences I do not understand. You would identify them as something spiritual. Being an atheist, I don't believe it is from a god of any kind, yet I know I have no idea what it is, never having experienced it myself.

I'm surprised you asked me the question. I always thought I was really clear about my atheism. Perhaps I need to get a tad more obnoxious?

Elphaba

Sorry, I know you too well to allow you to now suddenly become obnoxious. Besides, we've all tried obnoxious before, and this is much better, don't you think?

I have no problem with atheists. I do have a problem with atheists that sneer and ridicule those things they do not believe in. Bill Maher sneers at others and looks down on them, as shown by his film Religulous. In the film, he traps believers by setting up a normal interview, and then he shows up and asks difficult questions. For the 4 minutes on Mormonism, he interviewed Tal Bachman - definitely not the person you would think to interview if you want to know what Mormons believe.

So, while I respect you, I think Bill Maher is a loser. And my only hope is if he doesn't change his ways, that he gets his wish and ends up worm food, and only worm food.....

[Elphaba]

I have no problem with atheists.

I have no problem with religionists.

I do have a problem with atheists that sneer and ridicule those things they do not believe in.

As do I with theists who sneer and ridicule what I believe.

In fact, I have a hard time getting worked up that you have to put up with sneering and ridicule.

For example, just try to run for a public office if you’re an atheist. Your chances of getting elected are practically nil.

People like Mitt Romney and George Bush think you are not good Americans if you don’t believe in a god.

Or, crazy people on this board write crazy posts, calling me an “evil atheist priestess”! Of course, it is true, but she didn’t know that.

Bill Maher sneers at others and looks down on them, as shown by his film Religulous. In the film, he traps believers by setting up a normal interview, and then he shows up and asks difficult questions. For the 4 minutes on Mormonism, he interviewed Tal Bachman - definitely not the person you would think to interview if you want to know what Mormons believe.

What did Bachman say that was wrong?

I agree Bachman is no friend to the Church; however, that does not mean he doesn’t know what Mormons believe. Ex-Mormons who have been in the Church as long as he was usually know as much about it as current members do.

Having said that, there are plenty of other people who are members of the Church that Maher could have picked from, and I agree he should have.

So, while I respect you, I think Bill Maher is a loser.

And while I respect dullards, I think Bush is a moron.

And my only hope is if he doesn't change his ways,

Why should he do that?

He believes what he believes, and he shouldn’t have to pretend otherwise. In fact, he would be dishonest to do so. Would you really want him to lie?

Obviously he strikes a chord with many Americans, as his HBO show is a resounding success. Given he is an entertainer, it is ridiculous to insist he should change his ways--his “ways” are what make him so popular.

I can’t stand Glenn Beck, but he is also an entertainer, and I would never insist he change his ways because I don’t share his beliefs. I just don’t listen to him--problem solved.

that he gets his wish and ends up worm food, and only worm food.....

You do realize that if he ends up as worm food, you will too?

Elphaba

New Rule: The next reality show needs to be “America’s Stupidest State.” We’ll start at fifty, and each week, if your state does something really stupid with, say, evolution or images of the Virgin Mary, you’ll move on to the next round. Of course, the final five will always end up being Alabama, Utah, Kansas, Texas and Florida. Sorry, Tennessee. :p

[rameumptom]

My point about Tal Bachman, is in a serious endeavor, one would discuss LDS issues with someone who is actually LDS? Otherwise, Maher should have labelled his movie not as a satire on religion, but an attack on religion.

[Moksha]

Of course, the final five will always end up being Alabama, Utah, Kansas, Texas and Florida. Sorry, Tennessee. :p

Wonder what the betting odds would be in Vegas?

[bytor2112]

I am betting the final five would be California, Masachussetts, Florida (where I live), Alabama and Vermont......Washington a close 6th.

[bytor2112]

“evil atheist priestess”! Of course, it is true, but she didn’t know that.

hahahahahahahahahaa.....that's funny!

[Elphaba]

My point about Tal Bachman, is in a serious endeavor, one would discuss LDS issues with someone who is actually LDS? Otherwise, Maher should have labelled his movie not as a satire on religion, but an attack on religion.

I agree Bachman was not a good choice. My point was that his being an ex-Mormon does not automatically mean he doesn't know church doctrine. Bachman is actually very well versed in Church doctrine.

Since it would have been more appropriate for Maher to have chosen a member, I think a Romney/Maher smackdown would have been most excellent.

Elphaba