Question About Joseph Smith Iii

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 20 2004, 12:39 PM

When I said "the end of the world as we know it", I was alluding to bigger and better things.  I am reminded of the movie "The Dark Crytal", where the (very) old woman(?) who had made the prediction the last time the world changed that when the next time the 'great conjunction' comes, the world would end.  Her comment when that (2nd) point in time came was, "End.  Beginning.  All the same."

Anyway, given that I believe that Zion will come at the same time as the tribulations, the world will change for both the better and the worst.  It will be an end.  But it will be a new beginning, too.

Or, you could be right. 

I read somewhere that 'the end of the world' meant 'end of an era' or as you have stated, the of the world as we know it.

End and beginning are all the same. One eternal round as the Lord has said and himself being the beginning and end being one in the same.

Zion is the pure in heart found in the church of Christ. They are known to the sheperd, but not to the world therefore they are not in a world recognized organization.

Zion can and does come when one is in tribulation if you believe Paul's teaching that he was able to be content whether he was in the depths of want or the fullness of prosperity. Being born in tribulation, or reborn spiritually, is the only way to become a son or daughter of God.

Zion is a state of spiritual awearness and completeness through Christ. There are pockets of people who are all zion hearted and living together in peace and sharing all things in common among them and it is easy for them because of their hearts are pure.

When I was young the Winder family lived like this. Barbara Winder, the one-time General Relief Society President, came from this family and upbringing.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 20 2004, 08:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 20 2004, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Nov 17 2004, 06:13 PM

FB: Have you ever studied the history of Brigham Young? Although Brigham Young was strong minded, you make it sound like Joseph Smith went along with who ever was there at the time. I think that Joseph Smith learned many things in his life. I think it is just silly to think that Brigham Young influenced Joseph Smith in this way. I know it is the only way you can explain it, but Brigham Young did Joseph Smith's bidding, by going on missions for the church when really they were all needed at home. My Great Great Grand father went with him on one such mission when they were both so sick they could hardly sit up. I think your opinion of Brigham Young is way to harsh. He was a great man, and did what had to be done to lead. Who else could have done what Brigham Young did? Sidney Rigdon? James Strang? Joseph Smith III? There is no other leader that has kept the their own church growing, not even RLDS(CofC). Not one. Yet the LDS church which you claim is the apostate church is one of the fastest growing religions as far as converts go. The LDS church will baptise more in one year than you have members. Now don't take this as bragging. I am just saying that you need to rethink and do some research in the life of Brigham Young, and stop tearing him down as a person. I have never tore down Joseph Smith III. I have never said he fooled people into believe he was the prophet.

Fatboys, I have never torn down BY for the fun of tearing down BY.  And I don't believe that everything that BY accomplished was bad.  But just as I believe that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet, I believe that BY fell into the same ego pit.

FB: Do you believe that you could be in the same pit? If they were true prophets and fell, do you think that God would allow them to lead the very people God was trying to save into an abyss? How do you know that Joseph Smith III was not a fallen prophet? Christ tells us that one of the ways we can see whether or not a prophet is called of God is by their fruits. Joseph Smith brought about the restoration and restored lost keys. Brigham Young saved the people from destruction and the church continued to not only survive, but grow into one of the fastest growing convert churches on earth. These are just some of the simple and visible fruits. What fruits has your prophets brought to the world, your people and the kingdom of God on earth? How do you know when you say that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet, that instead it is just the opposite, and his son was the fallen one? Since David Whitmer thought the same as you, why didn't he come and join the RLDS church? Why did the other two witnesses return to the LDS church? Were they fallen as well? I guess I am a bit upset that you think Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet? Just when do you think he fell? Was he a fallen prophet when he blessed his Son?

I believe it is a weakness to not be able to see the harm that individuals do (or have done).  If you can't see the bad as well as the good, then you are in danger of coming real close to worshipping that individual and putting your faith in him as opposed to God.  Also, when you can't see the bad, you are left defenseless when someone comes along who can only see the bad, and you have no way to defend your beliefs.

FB: You think I believe that Brigham Young was perfect? Good grief no. He would be the first to say he was not perfect.

I think it is a great blessing to be able to see Joseph Smith as a man of God, and a man with human weaknesses.  It gives me even greater respect for him.  I can feel his struggles.  I can feel his triumphs.  I can understand how desperately he wanted to be accepted for his beliefs that God instilled in him.  He was human.  God chooses humans to do His will precisely because they are fallable.  Because humans are fallable, we learn not to put our trust in the arm of flesh, and that is what God desires.  For us to trust HIM, not some earthly creature that has earthly ambitions.

FB: And if you believe that Joseph Smith had earthly ambitions, then you do not know Joseph Smith. For what did he gain in earthly wealth?

I also see the problems with each and every prophet that we have had along the way.  I have seen the bad as well as the good.  It keeps one balanced.  It prevents you from looking like a fanatic.

I suggest you cultivate the ability to do the same.

Does their weaknesses make them a fallen prophet? Moses murdered, David murdered and committed adultery, Jonah ran away from the Lord. I do not believe that Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young were infallible. They made plenty of mistakes. But when they are speaking for the Lord, they did their best to relay the will of the Lord. As perfect as any of the ancient prophets. I do not think that you are keeping your attitudes towards these great men very balanced. You have read very little about Brigham Young and the kind and gentile person he was. The direct and strong person he was. Very balanced.

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