Question About Joseph Smith Iii

[Fatboy]

FB: Hi Jenda, I made it. Anyway I wanted to know what happened to the church between the time of the murder of Joseph Smith Jr and when Joseph Smith III. If the two aposltes who convinced Joseph Smith III to accept this calling was what God had intended, why were they members of the Strangite religion for a time?

[Jenda]

Hey, welcome, Fatboys! Glad you made it. I don't know if you have lurked here any or not, but we get the same thing here that we get on CF, in that someone besides the person to whom the question is directed will answer it also. Snow will probably give you a very good (if not biased) answer, too.

But as for my answer..........

Joseph Smith, Jr., designated Joseph Smith, III, on three separate occasions to be prophet of the church should anything happen to him. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith, III, was only 12 years old when JS,Jr., was killed. I know you already know that. When he was killed, the church fractured into at least 16 different factions. Each person who claimed leadership claimed to be authorized by JS in some way.

I found a website once (and promptly lost it (but will try to dig it up again)) of all those who claimed leadership, what their groups believed, and who followed them to each group. Your question does not have an easy answer because William Marks and Zenos Gurley were actually part of several groups during the interim time.

When the church split, BY, obviously, took the greater part of the group west. But those who remained, who also claimed authority, went to various other places, each claiming to be the original church. Many actually claimed to go back to the teachings of the original church as restored, and it was to these groups that Marks and Gurley looked. Strang claimed the same, but as with all the other groups, Strang's went the way of polygamy. They were really only with Strang for a couple of years before realizing that Strang was not a prophet and that he was not keeping the commandments that the Lord gave to the church when it was restored, so they left that group. That was probably around 1850 (maybe a little before). These two men might have known each other, but they did not live near each other, or have contact with each other, or act together till much later.

Long about 1852, both had an experience, again separate from each other, but both about the same time. Both of them had become discouraged because all of the groups that they had associated with from the original church had turned away from the Lord, and they despaired of ever finding even a remnant of the true church again, and so they prayed continuously to the Lord for guidance. They both had dreams or visions in which the Lord told them to find and gather the saints who had remained faithful to the original gospel, and that He would provide a leader for them. At first, they did not know that Joseph Smith, III, was to be the leader, and they approached JS,III, for that purpose, and he told them he was not interested. But they continued to hold their group together for 8 years, and at a conference in Amboy, Wisc., in 1860, Joseph Smith, III, came and said that the Lord directed him, at that time, to approach this group, that they were the only ones that practiced the commandments that the Lord had given in 1830 when the church was restored.

So, yes, Gurley and Marks were with Strang for a while. But they were also with others, too. They were looking for the group that held true to the restoration.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 18 2004, 08:24 PM

Hey, welcome, Fatboys! Glad you made it. I don't know if you have lurked here any or not, but we get the same thing here that we get on CF, in that someone besides the person to whom the question is directed will answer it also. Snow will probably give you a very good (if not biased) answer, too.

But as for my answer..........

Joseph Smith, Jr., designated Joseph Smith, III, on three separate occasions to be prophet of the church should anything happen to him. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith, III, was only 12 years old when JS,Jr., was killed. I know you already know that. When he was killed, the church fractured into at least 16 different factions. Each person who claimed leadership claimed to be authorized by JS in some way.

I found a website once (and promptly lost it (but will try to dig it up again)) of all those who claimed leadership, what their groups believed, and who followed them to each group. Your question does not have an easy answer because William Marks and Zenos Gurley were actually part of several groups during the interim time.

When the church split, BY, obviously, took the greater part of the group west. But those who remained, who also claimed authority, went to various other places, each claiming to be the original church. Many actually claimed to go back to the teachings of the original church as restored, and it was to these groups that Marks and Gurley looked. Strang claimed the same, but as with all the other groups, Strang's went the way of polygamy. They were really only with Strang for a couple of years before realizing that Strang was not a prophet and that he was not keeping the commandments that the Lord gave to the church when it was restored, so they left that group. That was probably around 1850 (maybe a little before). These two men might have known each other, but they did not live near each other, or have contact with each other, or act together till much later.

Long about 1852, both had an experience, again separate from each other, but both about the same time. Both of them had become discouraged because all of the groups that they had associated with from the original church had turned away from the Lord, and they despaired of ever finding even a remnant of the true church again, and so they prayed continuously to the Lord for guidance. They both had dreams or visions in which the Lord told them to find and gather the saints who had remained faithful to the original gospel, and that He would provide a leader for them. At first, they did not know that Joseph Smith, III, was to be the leader, and they approached JS,III, for that purpose, and he told them he was not interested. But they continued to hold their group together for 8 years, and at a conference in Amboy, Wisc., in 1860, Joseph Smith, III, came and said that the Lord directed him, at that time, to approach this group, that they were the only ones that practiced the commandments that the Lord had given in 1830 when the church was restored.

So, yes, Gurley and Marks were with Strang for a while. But they were also with others, too. They were looking for the group that held true to the restoration.

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 08:00 PM

Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God.

Joseph Smith III was a very good, moral person who took his duties very seriously. I hardly think he was disqualified because of unworthiness.

[srm]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 07:03 PM

FB: Hi Jenda, I made it. Anyway I wanted to know what happened to the church between the time of the murder of Joseph Smith Jr and when Joseph Smith III. If the two aposltes who convinced Joseph Smith III to accept this calling was what God had intended, why were they members of the Strangite religion for a time?

They were not Apostles.

Marks was a stake president

Gurley was a seventy

Jason Briggs also played a big part. He was an Elder

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 08:00 PM

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

I'd have to see your research, Fatboys. I have never seen anything that stated the Marks and Gurley approached Emma after JS,Jr., was killed about JS,III, taking over then. But in the meantime, he was faithful to the church that was restored (had to be, I'm sure, with Emma as his mother B) ), and lived his life. He became a lawyer, practiced law for a while till he felt the call to present himself to the church in Amboy.

"They" did not convince him to lead the church. "They" just bided their time. God is the one who convinced him to approach the church.

I think you are mistaken about the keys of the church. The keys are not passed on. They belong to Joseph Smith, Jr., through the whole dispensation. What is passed on is the oracles.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

[Jenifer]

Jenda, Why do you think the majority followed Brigham Young West?

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 08:00 PM

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

I'd have to see your research, Fatboys. I have never seen anything that stated the Marks and Gurley approached Emma after JS,Jr., was killed about JS,III, taking over then. But in the meantime, he was faithful to the church that was restored (had to be, I'm sure, with Emma as his mother B) ), and lived his life. He became a lawyer, practiced law for a while till he felt the call to present himself to the church in Amboy.

"They" did not convince him to lead the church. "They" just bided their time. God is the one who convinced him to approach the church.

I think you are mistaken about the keys of the church. The keys are not passed on. They belong to Joseph Smith, Jr., through the whole dispensation. What is passed on is the oracles.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Hi Dawn!

This is Randy Johnson..how are ya? Well, I know we have discussed this before...but I will ask again to build a foundation.

Lets suppose for a moment that we could all agree that JS III was in fact "designated" by his father to be the next President. We know from the August 8th special meeting that was convened that the 12 were upheld and sustained as the duly recognized and presiding quorum of the church..with BY as president.

Dawn...do you feel that the saints as a body were duty and honor bound to follow the Quorum of 12 until such time as young Joseph was able to come into his own?

If you do...then why do you believe Marks, Gurley, William Smith and others didnt follow the Quorum of 12 and the main body of the Saints west?

If it was because of alleged iniquity on the part of members of the 12...do you feel this was reason for them not to go?

Do you feel all the 12 were in a state of apostacy immediatly following or even BEFORE the death of the Prophet?

You know me....thousand questions.....take your time!! LOL!

randy

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 08:00 PM

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

I'd have to see your research, Fatboys. I have never seen anything that stated the Marks and Gurley approached Emma after JS,Jr., was killed about JS,III, taking over then. But in the meantime, he was faithful to the church that was restored (had to be, I'm sure, with Emma as his mother B) ), and lived his life. He became a lawyer, practiced law for a while till he felt the call to present himself to the church in Amboy.

"They" did not convince him to lead the church. "They" just bided their time. God is the one who convinced him to approach the church.

I think you are mistaken about the keys of the church. The keys are not passed on. They belong to Joseph Smith, Jr., through the whole dispensation. What is passed on is the oracles.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Dawn,

The "keys of the Kingdom" are the power, right and authority to preside over the Kingdom of God on earth and to direct all its affairs. In their fullness...only the Prophet of the Church holds all of the Keys. He may delegate any portion of that power to others...but they would only hold the keys to that particular labor.

Basically...revelations given through God through his prophets are Oracles. The First Presidency are appointed "to receive the oracles for the whole church". It should also be remembered that men who receive revelations or oracles for the people...are themselves called oracles...see 2 Sam. 16:23

The First Presidency and Quorum of the 12..because they are sustained as Prophets, Seers and Revelators to the church....are known as the "living oracles".

But...again...the "keys of the Kingdom" are bestowed upon the each member of the Quorum of the 12 by the President of the Church....the President being the ONLY one on earth who can exercise all of the keys. The Twelve are delegated portions of the those keys in order to direct the affairs in their particular area of labor.

So...you are correct....there is a difference between the "Keys of the Kingdom" and "Oracles".....but, the "keys" are such they can be passed on and/or delegated to others.

randy

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Oct 19 2004, 07:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Oct 19 2004, 07:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Fatboy@Oct 18 2004, 08:00 PM

From my research Marks and Gurley went to Emma after her husband had been murdered. They wanted Joseph Smith III to be President then. Emma wanted nothing to do with it. She told them to come back when he was 18. They did and her son turned them down. When he was 26 they convinced him to become the Leader. Again, my question was what was the church doing during this time? Even though Joseph Smith had been given a blessing by his father to be the leader, all blessings are determined upon our faithfulness to the commandments of God. Joseph Smith was 14 when God the Father appeared to him, and by the time he was 26 had translated and published the Book of Mormon and organized the church. Also priesthood authority is important and in the D&C the prophet is the only one who holds all the Keys. In case of death, the keys are given to the quorum as a whole. The blessing that Joseph Smith gave his son did not include the keys of the priesthood.

I'd have to see your research, Fatboys. I have never seen anything that stated the Marks and Gurley approached Emma after JS,Jr., was killed about JS,III, taking over then. But in the meantime, he was faithful to the church that was restored (had to be, I'm sure, with Emma as his mother B) ), and lived his life. He became a lawyer, practiced law for a while till he felt the call to present himself to the church in Amboy.

"They" did not convince him to lead the church. "They" just bided their time. God is the one who convinced him to approach the church.

I think you are mistaken about the keys of the church. The keys are not passed on. They belong to Joseph Smith, Jr., through the whole dispensation. What is passed on is the oracles.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Dawn,

The "keys of the Kingdom" are the power, right and authority to preside over the Kingdom of God on earth and to direct all its affairs. In their fullness...only the Prophet of the Church holds all of the Keys. He may delegate any portion of that power to others...but they would only hold the keys to that particular labor.

Basically...revelations given through God through his prophets are Oracles. The First Presidency are appointed "to receive the oracles for the whole church". It should also be remembered that men who receive revelations or oracles for the people...are themselves called oracles...see 2 Sam. 16:23

The First Presidency and Quorum of the 12..because they are sustained as Prophets, Seers and Revelators to the church....are known as the "living oracles".

But...again...the "keys of the Kingdom" are bestowed upon the each member of the Quorum of the 12 by the President of the Church....the President being the ONLY one on earth who can exercise all of the keys. The Twelve are delegated portions of the those keys in order to direct the affairs in their particular area of labor.

So...you are correct....there is a difference between the "Keys of the Kingdom" and "Oracles".....but, the "keys" are such they can be passed on and/or delegated to others.

randy

The keys of the kingdom were not left to Joseph Smith III, only a promise that if he remained true and faithful that the possibility was his. Since the Keys were left with the Quorum of the Twelve, most remained with the main body of the church. Had Joseph Smith III gone with the body of the church, he would have become what he was blessed to do. I am not saying he was not a good person, but he did not have the keys and the authority from his father. The stone cut out of the mountain without hands will continue to roll forth until it fill the whole earth. I just want to know what they RLDS church did for 14 years.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Jenifer@Oct 18 2004, 09:36 PM

Jenda, Why do you think the majority followed Brigham Young West?

(let me preface this by saying that this is a harsh post, but it is what I believe)

There were several reasons.

1. Joseph Smith, III, was only 12 years old when his father died, and was too young to lead the church.

2. Because Brigham Young was very charismatic. As a missionary, he brought a lot of people into the church, and they probably felt obligated to follow him.

3. Whistling Whittling Brigade.

4. He excommunicated all those who spoke otherwise.

5. He pulled off an excellent charade when he posed as Joseph Smith. Even going so far as to take JS's horse for the day.

Those are the ones off the top of my head. If more come up, I will add them.

[Jenda]

Hey Randy! Long time, no see. Welcome to LDStalk. Have you given up over there on the CoC board? You know, you never win on enemy territory. LOL. Sort of like me, here.

Since both you and Fatboys are stuck on this thing about the keys, maybe you should take some time to read the scripture I posted. That scripture proves that Joseph Smith, Jr., retains the keys of the kingdom. Why are you questioning me? If you have a problem with what the scripture states, then take it up with God. It is his. I can highlight for you, though, the part that specifically states that, in case you missed it.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Randy, let me restate to you, that upholding a quorum in their calling does not mean "take over the church". The same authority that was given to the presidency and the quorum of 12 was also given to the seventy. And that scripture has a lot of qualifications to it that Brigham Young chose to overlook, which, IMO, made the takeover hostile.

To answer your other question, I will give you three guesses as to why I believe that Marks and Gurley didn't follow BY.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Fatboy@Oct 19 2004, 10:15 AM

I just want to know what they RLDS church did for 14 years.

I'm going to answer this one through the mind of an LDSer or RLDSer; so don't get me wrong and assume I've flipped my lid.

I would suppose the "church" did exactly the same thing it did before JS received these "keys" during the creation of the Mormon church. If the "church" could possibly survive a pending status for 1700 years I can't imagine that another 14-16 years is going to make it null and void.

(Thinking this out as if I were one of them. )

M.

[Ray]

I think Fatboy is asking what the people who formed the RLDS church did after they split from the LDS church. Or if not, that’s my question.

In other words, since the people who formed the RLDS church didn’t follow Brigham Young and the apostles remaining in the “LDS” church, and Joseph Smith 3 didn’t accept a leadership position in any church for 14 years, who did those RLDS church members follow and meet with during those 14 years before Joseph Smith 3 accepted the leadership position of the RLDS church?

Btw, do you honestly believe there was a true church of Christ that survived a “pending” status? Even if the true church is the Methodist church, for instance, didn't the church the Methodist church sprang from become null and void as the true church of Christ when the Methodist church was established? Or do you believe that the Methodist church is just as good as any other on the planet, even though all churches disagree with each other on at least one significant issue?

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2004, 12:43 PM

I think Fatboy is asking what the people who formed the RLDS church did after they split from the LDS church. Or if not, that’s my question.

In other words, since the people who formed the RLDS church didn’t follow Brigham Young and the apostles remaining in the “LDS” church, and Joseph Smith 3 didn’t accept a leadership position in any church for 14 years, who did those RLDS church members follow and meet with during those 14 years before Joseph Smith 3 accepted leadership position of the RLDS church?

Do you honestly believe there was a “church” that survived a “pending” status? If so, at what point did that “church” in pending status become null and void before the restoration of true Church of Christ? Even if that church in pending status was the Methodist church, for instance, what church did the Methodist church spring from and at what point did the church the Methodist church sprang from become null and void prior to the establishment of the Methodist church?

FB: That is what I am asking. You have the founders of the RLDS who did what? They were in and out of several break off's. There is a 14 year time span that those who become RLDS who for some reason did not prepare the coming of another restoration of the original restoration, but floated around. Did Joseph Smith ordain his son to the higher priesthood? Was the church dormant.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Oct 19 2004, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Oct 19 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 19 2004, 12:43 PM

I think Fatboy is asking what the people who formed the RLDS church did after they split from the LDS church.  Or if not, that’s my question.

In other words, since the people who formed the RLDS church didn’t follow Brigham Young and the apostles remaining in the “LDS” church, and Joseph Smith 3 didn’t accept a leadership position in any church for 14 years, who did those RLDS church members follow and meet with during those 14 years before Joseph Smith 3 accepted leadership position of the RLDS church?

Do you honestly believe there was a “church” that survived a “pending” status?  If so, at what point did that “church” in pending status become null and void before the restoration of true Church of Christ?   Even if that church in pending status was the Methodist church, for instance, what church did the Methodist church spring from and at what point did the church the Methodist church sprang from become null and void prior to the establishment of the Methodist church?

FB: That is what I am asking. You have the founders of the RLDS who did what? They were in and out of several break off's. There is a 14 year time span that those who become RLDS who for some reason did not prepare the coming of another restoration of the original restoration, but floated around. Did Joseph Smith ordain his son to the higher priesthood? Was the church dormant.

Fatboys, I answered your question. For approx. 6-8 years, they (Gurley and Marks) moved from group to group that claimed to continue the commandments of the original church, but found that each did not. God spoke to them to gather up the remnant of the people that did continue to believe in those commandments (into their own group) and he would provide a leader. And in 1860, approx. 8 years after the beginnings of the reorganization, God prompted Joseph Smith, III, to assume leadership of that group. That is when, to us, the reorganization happened, even though the group had begun to gather 8 years before.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 19 2004, 12:14 PM

Since both you and Fatboys are stuck on this thing about the keys, maybe you should take some time to read the scripture I posted.  That scripture proves that Joseph Smith, Jr., retains the keys of the kingdom.  Why are you questioning me?  If you have a problem with what the scripture states, then take it up with God.  It is his.  I can highlight for you, though, the part that specifically states that, in case you missed it.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

FB: The Keys are still with Joseph Smith, but he passed the authority of these keys to the quorum of the twelve in case of death, so the keys will remain alive and well on earth. I mean why would God restore the keys to only take them away from earth after Joseph Smith's death? I don't think God would. So we have to look and see what would be the logical answer. Since Joseph Smith gave the authority of all the keys to the twelve, then they are still alive and well. Acting as a quorum, they did as they did anciently and called others to fill the vacancies. And then through the twelve who were given the authority of revelation for the whole of the church the Lord could call another to be in Joseph Smith's stead.

Since Joseph Smith the III was not called as it was done in ancient times, but could have, I think that Joseph Smith III was not anything but a follower of Christ to the best of his abilities. Just my opinion of course.

Randy, let me restate to you, that upholding a quorum in their calling does not mean "take over the church".  The same authority that was given to the presidency and the quorum of 12 was also given to the seventy.  And that scripture has a lot of qualifications to it that Brigham Young chose to overlook, which, IMO, made the takeover hostile.

To answer your other question, I will give you three guesses as to why I believe that Marks and Gurley didn't follow BY.

FB: You are exactly right. The quorum of the seventy when intact has been given the keys as a whole. The Twelve is a higher calling than the seventy. But the calling is important in the orgainization of the church as a whole. I also think that Brigham Young waited three years in becoming the President, hoping that Joseph Smith III would join them. It was apparent that Emma disliked Brigham Young. I think that this influence had much to affect her son. Think of the trials this woman went through for the church. I am sure that unless God had given her great knowledge of the importance of the work she would have left long ago. The straw that broke the camals back was his death. I don't know how I or anyone else would have been able to withstand the pressure she was under. I am sure that the pain of seeing her husband being beat, and chased and thrown in jail, etc. was to much for her to accept that her son do the same. Emma did what she thought was best for her son. She was a great woman.

Hi

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 19 2004, 01:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 19 2004, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Fatboy@Oct 19 2004, 12:13 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 19 2004, 12:43 PM

I think Fatboy is asking what the people who formed the RLDS church did after they split from the LDS church.  Or if not, that’s my question.

In other words, since the people who formed the RLDS church didn’t follow Brigham Young and the apostles remaining in the “LDS” church, and Joseph Smith 3 didn’t accept a leadership position in any church for 14 years, who did those RLDS church members follow and meet with during those 14 years before Joseph Smith 3 accepted leadership position of the RLDS church?

Do you honestly believe there was a “church” that survived a “pending” status?  If so, at what point did that “church” in pending status become null and void before the restoration of true Church of Christ?   Even if that church in pending status was the Methodist church, for instance, what church did the Methodist church spring from and at what point did the church the Methodist church sprang from become null and void prior to the establishment of the Methodist church?

FB: That is what I am asking. You have the founders of the RLDS who did what? They were in and out of several break off's. There is a 14 year time span that those who become RLDS who for some reason did not prepare the coming of another restoration of the original restoration, but floated around. Did Joseph Smith ordain his son to the higher priesthood? Was the church dormant.

Fatboys, I answered your question. For approx. 6-8 years, they (Gurley and Marks) moved from group to group that claimed to continue the commandments of the original church, but found that each did not. God spoke to them to gather up the remnant of the people that did continue to believe in those commandments (into their own group) and he would provide a leader. And in 1860, approx. 8 years after the beginnings of the reorganization, God prompted Joseph Smith, III, to assume leadership of that group. That is when, to us, the reorganization happened, even though the group had begun to gather 8 years before.

Why didn't they go to Utah and see if that religion followed the teachings as close? Why would they think that Joseph Smith III would understand what the true way was. Why did they have to go to other religions to find out they were wrong? They believed that Strang who was only a member like three months and had a letter from Joseph Smith stating he was to be the next leader. Why wouldn't the spirit tell them what was correct in the first place? Why the roller coaster ride? God told Joseph Smith Jr. not to join any of them. If God wanted the rerestore the church why didn't they receive this answer before eight years? Why let the church go into limbo and lose all they had built up for so many years? Just some things I really can quite understand.

[Ray]

I think members of the RLDS church primarily focus on how thankful they are that a descendent of Joseph Smith finally decided to lead their church, and as I understand it, they are now hoping that another descendent of Joseph Smith will also decide to lead their church. Without a descendent of Joseph Smith to lead their church, they are lost.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2004, 01:14 PM

I think members of the RLDS church primarily focus on how thankful they are that a descendent of Joseph Smith finally decided to lead their church, and as I understand it, they are now hoping that another descendent of Joseph Smith will also decide to lead their church. Without a descendent of Joseph Smith to lead their church, they are lost.

I doubt that very much. I'm sure the non-Restorationist CofC are quite confident in their organization and where it is taking them.

M.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 19 2004, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Oct 19 2004, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Oct 19 2004, 01:14 PM

I think members of the RLDS church primarily focus on how thankful they are that a descendent of Joseph Smith finally decided to lead their church, and as I understand it, they are now hoping that another descendent of Joseph Smith will also decide to lead their church.  Without a descendent of Joseph Smith to lead their church, they are lost.

I doubt that very much. I'm sure the non-Restorationist CofC are quite confident in their organization and where it is taking them.

M.

Ok, I will admit that my understanding of RLDS beliefs comes mainly from Jenda, so I really have no idea what the general membership of the "non-Restorationist CofC" believe.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Oct 19 2004, 12:14 PM

Hey Randy! Long time, no see. Welcome to LDStalk. Have you given up over there on the CoC board? You know, you never win on enemy territory. LOL. Sort of like me, here.

Since both you and Fatboys are stuck on this thing about the keys, maybe you should take some time to read the scripture I posted. That scripture proves that Joseph Smith, Jr., retains the keys of the kingdom. Why are you questioning me? If you have a problem with what the scripture states, then take it up with God. It is his. I can highlight for you, though, the part that specifically states that, in case you missed it.

D&C 87:2a-b (RLDS);(Utah D&C 90:3-5)

2a Verily I say unto you, The keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come; nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another; yea, even unto the church.

2b And all they who receive the oracles of God, let them beware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby; and stumble and fall, when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the rains descend, and beat upon their house.

Randy, let me restate to you, that upholding a quorum in their calling does not mean "take over the church". The same authority that was given to the presidency and the quorum of 12 was also given to the seventy. And that scripture has a lot of qualifications to it that Brigham Young chose to overlook, which, IMO, made the takeover hostile.

To answer your other question, I will give you three guesses as to why I believe that Marks and Gurley didn't follow BY.

Hi Dawn,

Well..uh yes...I am still there...although it would appear the Moderator board is about to slap me with a two week time out for being a bad little boy. For the life of me...I cant figure out what I did or said.

I know I speak in a plain and straightforward way....like you just did in your last post here....which I personally appreciate....oh well....and so it goes!

Ok...regarding the verse you cited in LDS D&C 90:3-5. We all must remember that when the Prophet was given the MP by Peter, James and John..they sealed upon him every power, and all authority belonging to the Apostleship, qualifing him to act as the messenger and representative of our Lord in all that pertains to his Church on earth. This is what is meant by the "keys of the Kingdom".

"Keys" stand for "authority" to act. This authority would never be taken away from the Prophet. He still holds them today.

Now...respecting "Oracles"...the word in the singular is used to indicate the place where God reveals himself, as an example...."the Mercy Seat" in the Temple. In the plural it means the revelations given by God.

In D&C 90:3-4 when it speaks of "Be given to another, yea, even unto the church"...we must remember that in Feb 1831 the Lord declared that Joseph Smith was the only one appointed to receive revelation and commandments for the Church.."until he be taken, if he abide in me," but should the Prophet fail this gift would be taken from him and given to another. (D&C 43:3-4)

Now...in March, 1833, after the Prophet had been tried and proved, the Lord said that the "keys", through which direction, commandment and revelation come, "shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come."

Yet...when the Prophet should be taken the "oracles" would be given to another, "even unto the church". Therefore...after the martyrdom the keys remained and were in possession of the Church and exercised through the Presiding council, which at that time was the Quorum of the 12, and in the Church the oracles (living Prophets) are found and will continue unto the end of time.

Bottom line is we have always held the belief that the Prophet Joseph still holds the "keys of the Kingdom"....we proclaim that every time we sing "Praise to the Man"....and that through the Prophet Joseph, others might also be appointed to receive revelations.

I know you are very aware with the Prophets teaching as found in his personal writings as well as those of Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards when Joseph spoke of "bestowing all of the keys of the Kingdom upon the heads of the 12" that even if they kill me...the work will continue to roll forth."

So..although there may be some similarities between the terms "keys" and "oracles"...suffice it to say...that we believe they both are found in the LDS church.

randy

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenifer@Oct 18 2004, 09:36 PM

Jenda, Why do you think the majority followed Brigham Young West?

I think the majority followed Brigham Young because he was the best choice at the time. They were basically forced to leave their homes. Those who stayed behind lived in fear of persecution. The other leaders that I know of who claimed authority were Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith's brother William. They were both unstable at best. Most of them chose to follow a strong leader who could take them somewhere where they could live in peace, and relative safety.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 19 2004, 12:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 19 2004, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenifer@Oct 18 2004, 09:36 PM

Jenda, Why do you think the majority followed Brigham Young West?

(let me preface this by saying that this is a harsh post, but it is what I believe)

There were several reasons.

1. Joseph Smith, III, was only 12 years old when his father died, and was too young to lead the church.

2. Because Brigham Young was very charismatic. As a missionary, he brought a lot of people into the church, and they probably felt obligated to follow him.

3. Whistling Whittling Brigade.

4. He excommunicated all those who spoke otherwise.

5. He pulled off an excellent charade when he posed as Joseph Smith. Even going so far as to take JS's horse for the day.

Those are the ones off the top of my head. If more come up, I will add them.

Dawn,

1) As of Aug 9th, 1844...if not JS III OR the 12...then who?

2) What about the thousands of converts brought in by Wilford Woodruff and Heber C. Kimball....do you feel they also were compelled to just follow who baptized them? This attitude...to me quite frankly tends to be a slap in the face to those Saints who accepted this gospel and sacrificed all they had to join with the main body of the Saints. To infer that they were being led around by the nose down a primrose path is to me....making a mockery of their testimony.

3) The whistling whittling brigade was not an invention of BY. Those activities were already in progress during the lifetime of the Prophet Joseph.

4) There is no evidence that BY excommunicated ALL who spoke otherwise. This is an urban legend..with no basis in fact. The 12 did excommunicate those who were in apostacy. It also must be remembered who all had been excommunicated under the Prophet Joseph and take a look at the reasons why. We must be fair and balanced. LOL!

5) Now Dawn....you are telling us that BY was a real David Copperfield? I dont think Joseph and BY were alike in appearance at all ...do you?

The indistputable evidence given in personal diaries and journals that bear witness to the event to which you infer...attest that there was a marvelous and miracleous transformation of BY where he took on the appearance and VOICE of the Prophet Joseph. There is no disputing that this event occured. The Saints were not looking for a sign...but the Lord in his mercy...and knowing what lay ahead of the Saints..blessed them with this wonderful testimony. It gave them tremendous faith and courage...and a perfect knowledge where the the true leadership of the Church resided...that being in the Quorum of the 12.

Dawn....I have been told by restorationists and others...that the ENTIRE Quorum of the 12 were in a state of apostacy even prior to the martyrdom. Do you personally believe this?

randy

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Oct 19 2004, 02:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Oct 19 2004, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenifer@Oct 18 2004, 09:36 PM

Jenda, Why do you think the majority followed Brigham Young West?

I think the majority followed Brigham Young because he was the best choice at the time. They were basically forced to leave their homes. Those who stayed behind lived in fear of persecution. The other leaders that I know of who claimed authority were Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith's brother William. They were both unstable at best. Most of them chose to follow a strong leader who could take them somewhere where they could live in peace, and relative safety.

The “majority” of members? Why do you claim that was the position of the “majority” of members? Do you also claim that the “majority” of members in the Church today accept Gordon B. Hinkley for some reason other than that they have received a personal witness from the Holy Ghost that he is a true prophet of God?

Well, while that may or may not be true, I will testify that I know that because I have received that personal witness, and that I really have no clue as to why the “majority” of other members believe it or signify that they believe it when they raise their hands to sustain him. I will say that I hope it’s because they’ve received a witness like me, though.