Planned Parenthood and Christianity ?????

[MarginOfError]

Nobody and nothing is perfect, but we should still be seeking after things that fit into the above description. It seems like Planned Parenthood doesn't fit the description. You can't say that the little bit of bad they do is okay because they do so much good. I think that they should be commended for all the good that they do, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they do something so evil. I could never support that.

In the Article of Faith you quoted, it says "if there is anything lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." And then you admitted yourself that some of the services Planned Parenthood provided are good. Do they not deserve praise for what good they are doing? Is it really hard to praise and criticize the same entity in one breath?

I'm not asking anyone to support Planned Parenthood. You don't have to like them. You don't have to support them. You don't have to patronize them. And no, the good and wholesome services they provide do not justify the unacceptable and wicked ones. In fact, I myself would never give a dime directly to Planned Parenthood. But I will recognize that a large portion of what they do is good. I'm perfectly willing to say I would like to see them do more of these services, and less of the services I disagree with.

[OtterPop]

I'm wondering exactly what makes PP so completely evil. The percentage of their services that are abortions? The amount of money they make from abortions? The fact that they do abortions at all?

For all of you who believe that having a pap smear at PP sullies one's soul and constitutes a sin in and of itself, I'm wondering if you know how many abortions your OB/GYN has done? How many would he/she have to do before they were deemed to be "evil" and unqualified to treat you? How many abortions are done at your local hospital?

What exactly is the threshold for knowing it's OK to patronize a given health care provider?

[Kyra]

In the Article of Faith you quoted, it says "if there is anything lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." And then you admitted yourself that some of the services Planned Parenthood provided are good. Do they not deserve praise for what good they are doing? Is it really hard to praise and criticize the same entity in one breath?

Please also notice that I did say I think they should be commended for the good that they do. I always try to find something good about everyone and everything, and they PP does do good things. They definitely have my praise for that.

[MarginOfError]

Please also notice that I did say I think they should be commended for the good that they do. I always try to find something good about everyone and everything, and they PP does do good things. They definitely have my praise for that.

You're right, I seem to have skipped over that sentence, for which I apologize.

[Kyra]

You're right, I seem to have skipped over that sentence, for which I apologize.

No problem. :) Sometimes when there's a lot to read, like in this thread, it's easy to miss things.

[Guest SisterofJared]

I don't think I demonized a person for using the service... I think it is sad to use the service, and I said I thought Christ would continue to love her. I don't consider her a demon. I consider it to be a mistake to look at the good of PP and disregard the truly evil heineous crimes that it commits against innocent unborn children.

I understand the point about being low income and not having medical insurance. I have no insurance, and my medical bills have been over $100,000 in the past 11 months. My ongoing monthly prescriptions costs have been 3/4 of our monthly income. It has brought us to a crisis point that has resulted in me going back to work against my doctor's medical advice.

But there are generally other options. Every state I have lived in has had a number of private clinic sthat charge on a sliding scale. I have had to look hard for one here in Washington, but did finally find one. With $20 I can go to the doctor, have my tab tests, etc. The visit may cost more, but they will let me pay over time. It STILL is a problem, because there are times I may not have $20, and the prescriptions cannot be gotten there. Poverty is difficult at best.

That said, I think you bring up a good point, OtterPop. What do we know about our doctors? A person ought to support only those whose beliefs match our own on the compelling issue of abortion. We ought to be asking questions, and refusing our patronage to any business, doctor or otherwise, that is supporting abortion. The right to life is a basic issue and to me more important that most other issues. I would not want to financially support any doctor who practices abortion.

Only when more people take a stand for righteousness will evil be irradicated. We all know that will only happen when the Savior comes again. But in the meanwhile, we CAN place ourselves on His side of the battle.

Sister of Jared

[Fiannan]

People seem very willing to focus solely on the fact that PP provides abortions, even when it is pointed out that providing abortions is not the majority of what they do. Anyone who doesn't want to support PP shouldn't do so, either in giving money or in using their services. But to say, categorically, that the organization is inherently evil and that no Christian should use their services is absurd. (I am aware that you did not say this; I'm talking about the premise of this thread.)

That reasoning could be used for a lot of organizations as well as social issues. Take pornography for example. A few days ago I was in a discussion with someone on an unrelated issue and she said something about pornography. She said that overall it is quite benificial to society. When I started to challenge her she said that it helps people be creative and I was forced to admit that many marriage and sex therapists use pornography when someone in a relationship has problems opening up sexually. I suppose it allows many young women to be able to go to college, helps keep many off welfare and even might help with the overall birthrate (a female Christian Democrat in Sweden got publicity a few years back when she suggested state TV play non-stop porn on Saturdays to assist in raising the fertility rate).

Doubt any organization on earth is totally without some merit. Doesn't make what they promote right though.

[MarginOfError]

That reasoning could be used for a lot of organizations as well as social issues. Take pornography for example. A few days ago I was in a discussion with someone on an unrelated issue and she said something about pornography. She said that overall it is quite benificial to society. When I started to challenge her she said that it helps people be creative and I was forced to admit that many marriage and sex therapists use pornography when someone in a relationship has problems opening up sexually. I suppose it allows many young women to be able to go to college, helps keep many off welfare and even might help with the overall birthrate (a female Christian Democrat in Sweden got publicity a few years back when she suggested state TV play non-stop porn on Saturdays to assist in raising the fertility rate).

Doubt any organization on earth is totally without some merit. Doesn't make what they promote right though.

So you admit shades of gray--even in the pornography industry.

Let's just be careful not to assume that because an industry has shades of gray doesn't mean that they span the entire spectrum from black to white. To illustrate, consider the two hypothetical black-white spectra for Planned Parenthood and Pornography:

Black______________ Shades of Gray_________________ White

Planned Parenthood

(----------+----------+----------+---------+----------+----------)

Pornography

(----------+----------+------)

It's perfectly possible for the spectrum of one industry/organization to span the entire scale from black to white while another only covers a portion of it. We could also have a spectrum for drinking caffeinated sodas that has plenty of gray, but touches neither black nor white.

Caffeinated Sodas

_________(--------+---------+----------+--)

How much gray are we willing to tolerate before we draw the line at good and evil? It's a question that is hard to answer because it varies by application, organization/industry, and by the individual involved. There are so many variables that have to be considered that we can really only make the decision on a case by case basis.

Note: In saying this, I do not deny that there exist issues that are undeniably wrong. I only mean to say that it can be difficult to categorize an organization on the solely on the undeniably wrong. For instance, a man who encourages a woman to have an abortion is engaging in a wicked act, but does that make the man entirely evil?

[Guest SisterofJared]

One might determine how much grey they find acceptable when deciding what support or even tolerance they give an organization or an activity.

To me abortion for social reasons is not grey, it's totally black, and 100% unacceptable.

Therefore, I find PP to be 100% unacceptable. No amount of white can offset that glaring black black black.

Sister of Jared

[MarginOfError]

One might determine how much grey they find acceptable when deciding what support or even tolerance they give an organization or an activity.

To me abortion for social reasons is not grey, it's totally black, and 100% unacceptable.

Therefore, I find PP to be 100% unacceptable. No amount of white can offset that glaring black black black.

Sister of Jared

Would you feel the same way about Planned Parenthood if it discontinued its abortion services?

[Guest SisterofJared]

Probably not. If PP offered no abortion services, I might look at all the other services it offers and make a new determination.

Frankly I HAVEN'T looked at all the other services... so I can't even begin to guess what that new determination would be. As long as abortion is part of the picture, PP is totally unacceptable to me. Some things are just beyond acceptance to me.

SoJ

[Guest ceeboo]

YES CEEBOO IS BACK ON THIS THREAD !!! ( I have had my 3 day break and I am rested )

I have digested what many of my Christain brethren have offered in this thread.

THE OP ( THAT'S ME ) HAS HAD A COMPLETE CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

I NOW FULLY SUPPORT PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND FEEL THEY ARE INDEED A WONDERFUL ORGANIZATION AS WELL AS SHOULD BE ADMIRED FOR ALL THE GOOD THEY DO FOR US ALL!!!!! A GREAT EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD,US CHRISTAINS AS WELL AS THE MANY WHO WATCH US WORK!!!

I ONLY HOPE THAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN LOOK PAST ( SEE THE GREY AREAS )THIS MISUDERSTOOD, OVER PLAYED, SMALL THING OF THEM BEING THE LARGEST PROVIDER OF ABORTIONS IN THE COUNTRY. LET US NOT FOCUS ON THE SMALL AMOUNT OF ABORTIONS THEY ENCOURAGE, PROFIT FROM, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE ( ONLY 280,000 A YEAR AND RISING).

LET US INSTEAD FOCUS OUR CHRISTAIN MINDS ON THE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE A DISCOUNTED PAP, OR A HALF DOZEN FREE CONDOMS, OR SOMETHING AS CRUTIAL AS CHEAP BIRTH CONTROL PILLS.

THANKS FOR HELPING THIS CHRISTAIN SEE THE LIGHT!!!

God bless,

Carl

[Honor]

One might determine how much grey they find acceptable when deciding what support or even tolerance they give an organization or an activity.

Do you shop at grocery stores that sell cigarettes?

Do you buy gas from places that also sell alcohol?

Do you buy books at Borders even though they carry titles that denounce the Church?

Do you use the internet even though it carries pornography?

I think it is entirely possible to acknowledge the good that they might do without throwing your full support behind the organization. Learning a bit about the topic might be best before speaking in absolutes.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Honor

[Guest SisterofJared]

YES CEEBOO IS BACK ON THIS THREAD !!! ( I have had my 3 day break and I am rested )

I have digested what many of my Christain brethren have offered in this thread.

THE OP ( THAT'S ME ) HAS HAD A COMPLETE CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

I NOW FULLY SUPPORT PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND FEEL THEY ARE INDEED A WONDERFUL ORGANIZATION AS WELL AS SHOULD BE ADMIRED FOR ALL THE GOOD THEY DO FOR US ALL!!!!! A GREAT EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD,US CHRISTAINS AS WELL AS THE MANY WHO WATCH US WORK!!!

I ONLY HOPE THAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN LOOK PAST ( SEE THE GREY AREAS )THIS MISUDERSTOOD, OVER PLAYED, SMALL THING OF THEM BEING THE LARGEST PROVIDER OF ABORTIONS IN THE COUNTRY. LET US NOT FOCUS ON THE SMALL AMOUNT OF ABORTIONS THEY ENCOURAGE, PROFIT FROM, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE ( ONLY 280,000 A YEAR AND RISING).

LET US INSTEAD FOCUS OUR CHRISTAIN MINDS ON THE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE A DISCOUNTED PAP, OR A HALF DOZEN FREE CONDOMS, OR SOMETHING AS CRUTIAL AS CHEAP BIRTH CONTROL PILLS.

THANKS FOR HELPING THIS CHRISTAIN SEE THE LIGHT!!!

God bless,

Carl

I think the light burned out! LOL

[MarginOfError]

YES CEEBOO IS BACK ON THIS THREAD !!! ( I have had my 3 day break and I am rested )

I have digested what many of my Christain brethren have offered in this thread.

THE OP ( THAT'S ME ) HAS HAD A COMPLETE CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

I NOW FULLY SUPPORT PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND FEEL THEY ARE INDEED A WONDERFUL ORGANIZATION AS WELL AS SHOULD BE ADMIRED FOR ALL THE GOOD THEY DO FOR US ALL!!!!! A GREAT EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD,US CHRISTAINS AS WELL AS THE MANY WHO WATCH US WORK!!!

I ONLY HOPE THAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN LOOK PAST ( SEE THE GREY AREAS )THIS MISUDERSTOOD, OVER PLAYED, SMALL THING OF THEM BEING THE LARGEST PROVIDER OF ABORTIONS IN THE COUNTRY. LET US NOT FOCUS ON THE SMALL AMOUNT OF ABORTIONS THEY ENCOURAGE, PROFIT FROM, AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE ( ONLY 280,000 A YEAR AND RISING).

LET US INSTEAD FOCUS OUR CHRISTAIN MINDS ON THE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE A DISCOUNTED PAP, OR A HALF DOZEN FREE CONDOMS, OR SOMETHING AS CRUTIAL AS CHEAP BIRTH CONTROL PILLS.

THANKS FOR HELPING THIS CHRISTAIN SEE THE LIGHT!!!

God bless,

Carl

YAY! My first convert!

As much as I enjoy your melodrama, ceeboo, I think I mentioned earlier that I would never support or patronize Planned Parenthood. The fact that they provide abortions is enough for me to say that I don't want to give them my support. However, if they were to remove that practice from their clinics, I would have no objection to giving them support.

My only point is that whether or not we support the organization, we can recognize that it does both good and bad things while stating that we choose to neither support nor help the organization in any way until it abandons the parts we disapprove of.

[Guest ceeboo]

Do you shop at grocery stores that sell cigarettes?

Do you buy gas from places that also sell alcohol?

Do you buy books at Borders even though they carry titles that denounce the Church?

Do you use the internet even though it carries pornography?

Honor, my dear sister is Christ,

PLEASE tell me these comparisons you offer is not serious!!!!!

I would suggest that if your delete button works, you may want to use it!!!

Peace,

Carl

[bytor2112]

a nice card from Planned Parenthood.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%

[bytor2112]

Very classy!! I know mom would be proud of this lovely parting gift from our friends at Planned Parenthood.....

[Guest SisterofJared]

Do you shop at grocery stores that sell cigarettes?

Do you buy gas from places that also sell alcohol?

Undoubtedly. But I don't support organizations that murder unborn children.

]Do you buy books at Borders even though they carry titles that denounce the Church?

I buy my books online. And probably the people who sell them would also sell anti books. But I don't support organizations that murder unborn children.

Do you use the internet even though it carries pornography?

I carefully use the internet and lend no support to websites that drive porn or provide porn or that uphold the killing of unborn children.

I think it is entirely possible to acknowledge the good that they might do without throwing your full support behind the organization. Learning a bit about the topic might be best before speaking in absolutes.

Well, I am ABSOLUTELY certain I do not support organizations that murder unborn children. If and WHEN PP changes that, I might be willing to take another look at the matter. Until then, there is NO AMOUNT of good they can do that will outweigh the evil they do. Closed mined? Heck yeah! I have a very closed mind when it comes to the murder of unborn children. I not only do not throw my full support behind them, I refuse to give even the tinest little bit of support, or even the hint of a bit of support.

They are evil and vile.

Sister of Jared

[bytor2112]

I think Sister of Jared makes a good point. How much more support for Planned Parenthood would there be if they were not known as the largest provider of surgical abortions? The other issue for me is tax support. They receive a great deal of federal money and they turn a substantial profit.

Oh and that nifty t-shirt I posted......I wonder do you get one of those after a pap smear or HIV test or some other service? Hmmm???

[Guest ceeboo]

My only point is that whether or not we support the organization, we can recognize that it does both good and bad things while stating that we choose to neither support nor help the organization in any way until it abandons the parts we disapprove of.

Hello MOE, :)

I see your point. I appreciate you sharing it as well.

My point for your consideration:

I see it a little different. IMHO, We Christains have a responsibility to defend life. To simply say we don't support it but to each their own, or suggest " it does do some good things " is falling WAY SHORT of what we Christains MUST DEFEND !!! ( my opinion ). And is FAILING THE CALL WE HAVE TO ALL PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET TO TAKE A STAND AND SHINE THE LIGHT. It is easy to shine the light in the daytime. It is of much greater challenge to us ALL, to shine the light of Christ in darkness. ( Planned Parenthood is A VERY DARK ORGANIZATION, PERIOD)

Simply put, if we are gonna walk with Jesus, LETS START WALKING!!!!

Peace,

Carl

[Guest SisterofJared]

Oh, that t-shirt made me want to throw up!

Heaven help us all if we are in a society that seeks to promote such activity and hold it up as something to brag about or even make it seem ordinary and acceptable.

Barf.

SoJ

[Guest ceeboo]

Very classy!! I know mom would be proud of this lovely parting gift from our friends at Planned Parenthood.....

Cant we Christians just not read the shirt and just focus on the nice fabric???

Or atleast see if we can get the shirt in " a shade of gray " so as to not have to make a stand !!!

Edited November 20, 2008 by ceeboo

[Fiannan]

So you admit shades of gray--even in the pornography industry.

Let's just be careful not to assume that because an industry has shades of gray doesn't mean that they span the entire spectrum from black to white. To illustrate, consider the two hypothetical black-white spectra for Planned Parenthood and Pornography:

Black______________ Shades of Gray_________________ White

Planned Parenthood

(----------+----------+----------+---------+----------+----------)

Pornography

(----------+----------+------)

It's perfectly possible for the spectrum of one industry/organization to span the entire scale from black to white while another only covers a portion of it. We could also have a spectrum for drinking caffeinated sodas that has plenty of gray, but touches neither black nor white.

Caffeinated Sodas

_________(--------+---------+----------+--)

How much gray are we willing to tolerate before we draw the line at good and evil? It's a question that is hard to answer because it varies by application, organization/industry, and by the individual involved. There are so many variables that have to be considered that we can really only make the decision on a case by case basis.

Note: In saying this, I do not deny that there exist issues that are undeniably wrong. I only mean to say that it can be difficult to categorize an organization on the solely on the undeniably wrong. For instance, a man who encourages a woman to have an abortion is engaging in a wicked act, but does that make the man entirely evil?

Yes, all issues have black and white. Look at the accomplishments of Germany from 1933 to 1945:

Laid the foundation for the development of the US NASA program.

Created the first interstate freeway system.

First government to promote animal rights legislation.

First national park system in Europe.

Went from poverty to relative prosperity (destroyed by the war of course).

Problem was a ffew other items that tend to blacken their reputation.

[MarginOfError]

Are you suggesting that in order to clean the black mark we should remove anything associated with that regime. Let's get rid of the space program, and everything that came because of it. Say goodbye to microwaves!

Let's get rid of the interstates. We don't rely on that infrastructure anyway.

Let's scrap animal rights. Free Michael Vick!

I can't wait to see the paper companies clear cut Acadia.

When we deal with people we often try to accept the good in them. Build on those parts of them, and slowly purge the wicked. It's called progression.

In the instance of Planned Parenthood, I've already suggested that we don't have to support it. I've even suggested establishing a competitor. But to establish a competitor that forsakes the wicked practices of the organization, you still have to recognize the good aspects of it.

Your attempt to discredit Planned Parenthood by associating it with the Nazis actually works against your argument anyway. Germany did purge most of those putrid elements of its society out of itself. They're a far better country now than they were in 1945. What's to say that in 50 years we can't change Planned Parenthood to be a better organization?