The Judgment of the 12 Disciples of The Lamb?

[Mudcat]

Hi All,

I had a question in regards to these verses in 1 Nephi 12.

7 And I also saw and bear record that the Holy Ghost fell upon twelve others; and they were ordained of God, and chosen.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the Twelve Disciples of the Lamb, who are chosen to minister unto thy seed.

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

Emphasis mine on v. 9&10. As I understand it, this seems to be saying that the 12 Apostles (Peter, Matthias, etc..) will judge the tribes of Israel... this would include Nephi and his brethren. However, the seed of Nephi will be judged by the 12 Disciples of the Lamb and these Disciples will first be judged by the 12 Apostles. Hopefully I have gotten that right, so far.

It generates a few questions and I was wondering what your thoughts might be.

1. Does the immediate seed of Nephi fall under the judgment of the Disciples, or does their assignment as judges begin after they start they have been appointed? If that didn't make sense, I suppose another way of asking it would be. Are Nephi's seed still judged by the 12 Apostles as part of the tribes of Israel until Christ appoints the 12 Disciples of the Lamb?

2. Do the 12 Disciples have jurisdiction in judgement over modern day LDS, or did their assignment of Nephi's seed end with the extermination at the close of the Book of Mormon?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[KristofferUmfrey]

Hi All,

I had a question in regards to these verses in 1 Nephi 12.

Emphasis mine on v. 9&10. As I understand it, this seems to be saying that the 12 Apostles (Peter, Matthias, etc..) will judge the tribes of Israel... this would include Nephi and his brethren. However, the seed of Nephi will be judged by the 12 Disciples of the Lamb and these Disciples will first be judged by the 12 Apostles. Hopefully I have gotten that right, so far.

It generates a few questions and I was wondering what your thoughts might be.

1. Does the immediate seed of Nephi fall under the judgment of the Disciples, or does their assignment as judges begin after they start they have been appointed? If that didn't make sense, I suppose another way of asking it would be. Are Nephi's seed still judged by the 12 Apostles as part of the tribes of Israel until Christ appoints the 12 Disciples of the Lamb?

2. Do the 12 Disciples have jurisdiction in judgement over modern day LDS, or did their assignment of Nephi's seed end with the extermination at the close of the Book of Mormon?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

I see this verse as having more to do with the Kingdom of God. "Heaven" is a kingdom, and I believe organized like a kingdom, with kings, priests, lords, etc... judging (ruling) over their given area (city, country, etc...) of responsibility. The NT seems to bear this out. I'll find the verses this PM unless someone beats me to it.

Edited December 8, 2008 by KristofferUmfrey
spelling

[Guest tomk]

I interpret this reference to judgement as the FINAL JUDGEMENT - when we are assigned to a kingdom of glory.

[conservativeme]

I wouldn't be surprised that this may something that falls under the Law of Witnesses.

And as far as "Final Judgment" goes, there is no set period of time when this will happen. This has already occurred to many people. This is just the system of governance that the Lord has given for admittance into the Kingdoms of Glory, and there will be many judges of us, Joseph Smith, perhaps the Original Twelve, perhaps President Hinckley or Monson. The Exaltation Recommend is probably a bit more difficult to receive than a living ordinance recommend. Perhaps we should also ask if the Apostles are temporally judging or spiritually?

[Mudcat]

I'll repost the verses again.

7 And I also saw and bear record that the Holy Ghost fell upon twelve others; and they were ordained of God, and chosen.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the Twelve Disciples of the Lamb, who are chosen to minister unto thy seed.

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

It seems clear that Nephi is going to be judged by the 12 original Apostles but his seed will be judged by the 12 Disciples. It was confusing at first. But here you have an angel telling Nephi his seed will be judged by the Disciples, however it is implied that he is of Israel and will be judged by the 12 Apostles.

The thing that was confusing was all this is declaration was happening circa 600 BCE. However there isn't really more than a 3 year span from selection of the Apostles to the selection of the Disciples, when you get right down to brass tacks.

Later in 1 Nephi, there is a strong inference that the latter day Church would be counted as the seed of Lehi. This would also seem to place them under the Apostolic judgment of the first 12 Apostles.

I will say that it seems odd, to render judgement for the Nephites apart from the 12 Apostles, if the remainder of the Church is to be judged by the 12. Really don't know what to make of that.

Thoughts?

[cjmaldrich]

I hope I'm somewhat close here. I'm not entirely sure myself how judgment will go and who will be judging whom... But I found it interesting when I watched Elder Wirthlin's funeral that he has a bishop and a stake president, yet he's an apostle. Christ himself was baptized by John the Baptist, despite the fact that he was the savior.

I was actually just thinking about this today. There is so much organization in this church, and so many people acting as a team. None of us can make it to the highest level of Celestial glory on our own. We need a spouse, we need church leaders, we need Christ, we need people to perform ordinances. As a financial clerk in my ward I've seen how important it is for everyone to work together to keep the work going smoothly, everyone keeps everyone else in check and helps them do their own job.

How all of this works into the judgment of man, I can't say. I think I would have to ponder a bit more and study the subject further. But it seems to me that if even an Apostle works (to some degree) under the direction of a bishop (sometimes referred to as a judge as we know), that there will probably be some amount of peer judgment... However it'll work...

[tubaloth]

1. Does the immediate seed of Nephi fall under the judgment of the Disciples, or does their assignment as judges begin after they start they have been appointed?

I would have to say after they are appointed. (This is talking about the Disciples, not the Apostles and I well refer to each as such).

My Bishop is a Judge in Israel, but he doesn’t judge those BEFORE he started serving in his calling as Bishop.

Are Nephi's seed still judged by the 12 Apostles as part of the tribes of Israel until Christ appoints the 12 Disciples of the Lamb?

No, I wouldn’t think so. But honestly I don’t know of a good answer. This is only my view.

The 12 Apostles well judge the 12 tribes, this seems to take place from the beginning of the earth until now. Or all of God’s children. (Before and after the Atonement)

Then After Christ was resurrected, and now needed special witness for his name, he now calls Twelve Apostles (Disciples in the book of Mormon, but it’s the same calling).

This I feel would judge those of the current generation of that part of the tribe during that time frame. So these disciples only fall into the time they are called. This is still Nehi’s seed.

What is left over is those that came from the time of Nephi until the Atonement and or call of the Disciples. These I think each prophet during this time well be the extra judge. Much like Nephi says.

(2 Nephi 33:11.)

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

This is a little different because this isn’t really talking about judging a nation, this is more Nephi point out to all that Read of Book of Mormon that we are held accountable for what we read. But at least Nephi knows he is going to be there.

Do the 12 Disciples have jurisdiction in judgment over modern day LDS, or did their assignment of Nephi's seed end with the extermination at the close of the Book of Mormon?

No, I would say it ends when they pass away. I have always taken these scriptures one step farther (I don’t know if I have read anything else to support it or not). But I feel each Set of Apostles that come forth are there to judge Us in this time and frame. How does that work with me living with many different apostles called I don’t know. But I think the point Christ was teaching here is that Each set of Apostles is going to have to not only give an account for how they served Christ, but also be part of the Judgment of those they served, and why people didn’t follow there words.

It seems clear that Nephi is going to be judged by the 12 original Apostles but his seed will be judged by the 12 Disciples.

Yes it does, its just a matter of where does this judgment of his seed start. Is it after Nephi passes away, or after Disciples are called. Both fit the definition of Nephi’s seed.

Later in 1 Nephi, there is a strong inference that the latter day Church would be counted as the seed of Lehi. This would also seem to place them under the Apostolic judgment of the first 12 Apostles.

Huh?

[Justice]

I view it something like this, that the original 12 Apostles will act as "judge" if you will, of course being subordinate to Christ who is the last and great judge, but the 12 Apostles who belong specifically to your tribe will act as "jurrors" if you will. Each person will be judged "out of the books" that were available to them by a "jury of their peers." All of the books available to each tribe will be opened and the individuals responsible for writing the records available to us will be our judge and jury... of couse under the direction and authority of Christ. All judgements will be acording to His will, which will mean they will be according to the Father's will, since they are One.

[skalenfehl]

As Tom mentions, I too, see this as pertaining to the final judgment. It all has to do with stewardship. For this reason, Nephi is told this and also why we are told that we will not be able to enter the Celestial Kingdom without Joseph Smith's 'stamp of approval' so to speak. Cmaldrich has the right idea. Here's a good link with a lot of information about this question about the 12 apostles judging, also the 12 Nephite disciples, etc.

Final Judge of the World: Joseph Smith or God?

John Taylor, "The Mediation and Atonement", p. 157 - 159:

a principle of adjudication or judgment in the hands, firstly, of the Great High Priest and King, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God; secondly, in the hands of the Twelve Apostles on the continent of Asia, bestowed by Jesus Himself; thirdly, in the Twelve Disciples on this continent, to their peoples, who it appears are under the presidency of the Twelve Apostles who ministered at Jerusalem; which presidency is also exhibited by Peter, James and John, the acknowledged presidency of the Twelve Apostles; they, holding this Priesthood first on the earth, and then in the heavens, being the legitimate custodians of the keys of the Priesthood, came and bestowed it upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. It is also further stated that the Saints shall judge the world. Thus Christ is at the head, His Apostles and disciples seem to take the next prominent part; then comes the action of the Saints, or other branches of the Priesthood, who it is stated shall judge the world. This combined Priesthood, it would appear, will hold the destiny of the human family in their hands and adjudicate in all matters pertaining to their affairs; and it would seem to be quite reasonable, if the Twelve Apostles in Jerusalem are to be the judges of the Twelve Tribes, and the Twelve Disciples on this continent are to be the judges of the descendants of Nephi, then that the brother of Jared and Jared should be the judges of the Jaredites, their descendants; and, further, that the First Presidency and Twelve who have officiated in our age, should operate in regard to mankind in this dispensation, and also in regard to all matters connected with them, whether they relate to the past, present, or future, as the aforementioned have done in regard to their several peoples; and that the Patriarchs, the Presidents, the Twelve, the High Priests, the Seventies, the Elders, the Bishops, Priests, Teachers and Deacons should hold their several places behind the veil, and officiate according to their calling and standing in that Priesthood. In fact, the Priesthood is called an everlasting Priesthood; it ministers in time and in eternity. Moses speaks of the Levitical Priesthood as an everlasting Priesthood. (Ex., xl, 15.) Paul refers to the Melchizedek Priesthood as being "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life." (Heb., vii, 3.) Whilst the Prophet Joseph Smith states that this "Priesthood continueth in the Church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years." (Doc. and Cov., Sec. lxxxiv, 17, p. 290.)

This being the case, it necessarily follows that those holding the Priesthood on the earth continue in the exercise of the Priesthood in the heavens, their operations being changed from this to another state of existence; and when the dead, small and great, shall be judged, while God stands at the head, and Jesus is the great High Priest of our profession, all those who have ever lived who are worthy will stand in their proper positions, according to their callings, Priesthood, ordinations or quorums.

[Traveler]

Hi All,

I had a question in regards to these verses in 1 Nephi 12.

Emphasis mine on v. 9&10. As I understand it, this seems to be saying that the 12 Apostles (Peter, Matthias, etc..) will judge the tribes of Israel... this would include Nephi and his brethren. However, the seed of Nephi will be judged by the 12 Disciples of the Lamb and these Disciples will first be judged by the 12 Apostles. Hopefully I have gotten that right, so far.

It generates a few questions and I was wondering what your thoughts might be.

1. Does the immediate seed of Nephi fall under the judgment of the Disciples, or does their assignment as judges begin after they start they have been appointed? If that didn't make sense, I suppose another way of asking it would be. Are Nephi's seed still judged by the 12 Apostles as part of the tribes of Israel until Christ appoints the 12 Disciples of the Lamb?

2. Do the 12 Disciples have jurisdiction in judgement over modern day LDS, or did their assignment of Nephi's seed end with the extermination at the close of the Book of Mormon?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Perhaps I view the judgment different than most in that I do not believe that the judges appointed by my Father in heaven are to condemn me for my every error and to praise me for my every brilliance as much as it is that they were appointed to assist me in understanding and discovering the journey to bring me home.

The Traveler