Born-again Mormon Responds

[Shawn]

My name is Shawn McCraney and I am the person who wrote the book Born-Again Mormon and who started Born-Again Mormon Ministries. I was born in the covenant, served a mission, married in the temple, was in a Bishopric and served on a high council for 4 years. I taught early morning seminary 2 years in California. I know the Church and I know the doctrines. I appreciate the Church and all it does in the face of today's world. But I also experienced a completely genuine and undeniable spiritual regeneration where anyone who has experienced the same (regardless of denomination) share a distinct commonality of faith. This commonality is not orchestrated by Man or his ideas, does not succumb to dogma or religious doctrine, and can only be described as otherworldly. The results of this rebirth are a natural revulsion to sin and temptation, a fruitful desire to know, love, serve and please God from the deepest parts of the heart, and a God-given faith Man cannot produce by his/her own merits. Part and parcel of this rebirth experience is an overwhelming yearning to praise Jesus (in the heart and verbally) and a entirely new and fresh perspective of the Word of God (the Bible). Again, these things are not produced or generated in the heart of the transformed but naturally occur ONLY after God has touched their hearts. My point is, when I witness (hear and see) these elements evidenced in the general body of the Latter-day Saints, I'll believe that genuine spiritual rebirth is a viable, authenitc part of the religion. Active, honest Latter-day Saints must admit that rarely is the topic of spiritual rebirth every mentioned in church, and that when the rubber meets the road, Jesus is but a footnote to the religion. I am not slamming, I am stating what I feel is fact. Prove me wrong.

In Jesus,

Shawn

P.S. Please do spend a lot of time trying to quote scriptures. I know them and I know what the LDS references say. Just describe some flat out universal experiences where Jesus is truly and constantly recognized as our only means to the Father.

[StrawberryFields]

Hello Shawn

Do you consider yourself a modern day prophet?

[Lindy]

Shawn~ I am glad that you are honest with how you feel, and I'm glad that you still can appreciate the Church and what it does. I am a convert to the LDS church, and I came into the church knowing what "Born Again" means and as I have stated before, I am proud to keep that label alongside "mormon". I will say that I would not have joined the church if they didn't have

a fruitful desire to know, love, serve and please God from the deepest parts of the heart

that is a prereq for any religion that I investigated. And

a God-given faith Man cannot produce by his/her own merits.

Of course man cannot produce faith by his/her own merits....merits (works) are a proof to God OF their faith. An undeniable faith which has already been established.

Jesus is NOT just a "footnote to" the religion, He is "the foundation of" the religion. I think you found the wrong word to describe the LDS faith.

As for

an overwhelming yearning to praise Jesus (in the heart and verbally)

I think that we do that every Sunday during Sacrement Meeting...I know that thinking about and praising Jesus is what is (or should be) in the thoughts of those LDS as they partake of the Sacrement. And I KNOW that every Sacremental hymn praises the Lord Jesus Christ.

And maybe you have missed or just forgotten the voices of the children as they bear their little testimonies...."I love God, I love Jesus...I love my mommy and daddy, I hate my sister...and I love my dog" "Jesus loves the little children...all the children of the world...they are precious in his sight..." Honesty comes from the mouth of children ......and don't give me the "brain washed" theory cause I've heard it before...I spent too many years in Primary, teaching and talking to children, and most will tell you what they really think...not what they have "been told" to think. And yes they have been told that Jesus loves them, if that is part of the "brain washing" than boo hoo. Sorry, if I overstepped the reply...but I was anticipating the response :)

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 01:38 AM

My point is, when I witness (hear and see) these elements evidenced in the general body of the Latter-day Saints, I'll believe that genuine spiritual rebirth is a viable, authenitc part of the religion.

Shaun's natural man is showing. To define witness as hearing and seeing is use of the senses, thus being sensual. Depending on your senses to prove spirituality is to be a natural man.

(This was an excellent example of what I was trying to say in another thread, thank you!)

[Shawn]

(see below - apologies)

[Shawn]

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen . . . the only way to comprehend evidence, as humans, is through our senses. You can try and label me a natural man but I, in turn, throw the title right back on you. I live by faith, which is based on the spirit, Latter-day Saints live by works, which is based on their own need to act in order to feel qualified before God. What is lost in the translation is that Jesus qualifies, justifies and sanctifies Man before God . . . and nobody else. Once this faith (which I claim) has taken place (which again is based on EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE from the Word of God, not the works and ideas of Man) then reborn Christians accomplish far more in the name of the Lord than the LDS could ever dream. Bottom-line, Latter-day Saints do not belive salvation would be available to Man without Joseph Smith. Born-Again Mormons know Jesus is the ONLY thing necessary to live with God again.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 09:24 AM

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen . . . the only way to comprehend evidence, as humans, is through our senses. You can try and label me a natural man but I, in turn, throw the title right back on you. I live by faith, which is based on the spirit, Latter-day Saints live by works, which is based on their own need to act in order to feel qualified before God. What is lost in the translation is that Jesus qualifies, justifies and sanctifies Man before God . . . and nobody else. Once this faith (which I claim) has taken place (which again is based on EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE from the Word of God, not the works and ideas of Man) then reborn Christians accomplish far more in the name of the Lord than the LDS could ever dream. Bottom-line, Latter-day Saints do not belive salvation would be available to Man without Joseph Smith. Born-Again Mormons know Jesus is the ONLY thing necessary to live with God again.

Thanks for the PM in answer to my question above.

I live by work yes, but only as directed by my faith.

I do not dispel the importance of becoming 'born again' but I believe that that is something that happens quietly with in our souls.

To your Bottom line... It appears that you believe that YOU through YOUR book want to take the credit of bringing your followers to salvation thru Jesus Christ. How does that not make you a prophet?

How many Born Again Mormons are there and where are they living? When I mean living... just general areas are fine. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 08:24 AM

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen . . . the only way to comprehend evidence, as humans, is through our senses.  You can try and label me a natural man but I, in turn, throw the title right back on you.  I live by faith, which is based on the spirit, Latter-day Saints live by works, which is based on their own need to act in order to feel qualified before God.  What is lost in the translation is that Jesus qualifies, justifies and sanctifies Man before God . . . and nobody else.  Once this faith (which I claim) has taken place (which again is based on EVIDENCE and SUBSTANCE from the Word of God, not the works and ideas of Man) then reborn Christians accomplish far more in the name of the Lord than the LDS could ever dream.  Bottom-line,  Latter-day Saints do not belive salvation would be available to Man without Joseph Smith.  Born-Again Mormons know Jesus is the ONLY thing necessary to live with God again.

You can’t truthfully claim to worship Jesus Christ and at the same time reject the people He inspires to declare His will to us. And how do we know when God has inspired people to declare His will to us? Through a testimony from the Holy Ghost, confirming the truth of what they say to us.

If you don’t have a testimony from the Holy Ghost, you can’t know that those people are His prophets, and you will be excused from not knowing. But if you say that those people are NOT prophets of God, (and you seem to be saying that we don’t need the message delivered by Joseph Smith) you must have some kind of evidence to support that belief. What is it? Do you testify that the Holy Ghost has told you that those people are not prophets of God? If so, who is?

Are you declaring yourself to be a prophet of God, or do you testify of someone else? Evidently you believe that this so-called “Born-Again Mormon” movement is inspired of God, and I assume you are telling people that they should listen to the leaders of this movement rather than the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or any other religion for that matter. Should we accept that testimony just because you and your leaders say so, or should we instead rely on a testimony from the Holy Ghost to confirm the truth of your message?

I for one will continue to put my trust in God. Through a testimony from the Holy Ghost, I know that Joseph Smith was one of God's prophets, as I also know that Gordon Bitner Hinkley is one of God's prophets, and I know that the teachings revealed through them are essential to our salvation. Disagree with me if you wish, but at the last day when you stand before God, you will come to know that their teachings are true.

[Guest Starsky]

I believe that 'being still' to know God is rebirth.

I am guilty of 'spouting' much as you have Shawn and believing that I was 'reborn' and 'directed' to tell the world.

But in truth rebirth is between you and the Lord and being still is the only way to know God.

I believe we lose the intimacy with God when we go about telling everyone else what they should be doing in order to be in compliance with God.

If someone is searching for such...the Lord will lead them as He did with Paul.

[Ray]

You seem to be undermining the work of prophets, Peace. Was that your intent? Do you believe that all people should wait until they see the Lord as Paul did, or otherwise remain without a knowledge of the truth? Don’t you believe that our Lord also declares His will to us through prophets, and that we are accountable for our behavior after listening to those people?

After Paul was converted, He was told to go and preach the gospel to the so-called Gentiles. Do you believe that each one of those Gentiles needed to wait until they received a physical visitation from the Lord, or did they come to know the truth by some other way? Or do you believe that they never had an opportunity to know the truth, until each one of them received a physical visitation from our Lord, because they had no other way to know that Paul was telling the truth?

Even though our Lord doesn’t expect us to accept the words of His prophets simply on their say so, our Lord does declare His will to us through prophets. We are then held accountable for how we respond to their messages, and through a testimony from the Holy Ghost we can know that those people speak the truth.

[Guest Starsky]

You seem to be undermining the work of prophets, Peace.

This is a bit rash of you Ray.

Was that your intent?

No and if you had taken a little pondering time, you would have gotten that without my help.

Do you believe that all people should wait until they see the Lord as Paul did, or otherwise remain without a knowledge of the truth?

I stated that everyone should be lead by the Lord to Him. I gave Paul as just one example...should I expound with a longer list...such as Enos, etc. Where did I make a statement that even included the word or concept of prophet?

Don’t you believe that our Lord also declares His will to us through prophets, and that we are accountable for our behavior after listening to those people?

Where did you get this from my short little post?

After Paul was converted, He was told to go and preach the gospel to the so-called Gentiles.

Preaching the Gospel...hmmmm. Do you know what the gospel is? Read

3 Nephi 27:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be ejudged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

The scriptures tell it all.

Do you believe that each one of those Gentiles needed to wait until they received a physical visitation from the Lord, or did they come to know the truth by some other way?

The scriptures are available today for everyone... and...btw..are you saying that Shawn is a prophet?

Or do you believe that they never had an opportunity to know the truth, until each one of them received a physical visitation from our Lord, because they had no other way to know that Paul was telling the truth?

Did I say that? I believe you have made way too much of my post... without sufficient evidence. IOW you are putting many concepts and words and meanings to what I simply stated as one example.

I didn't say 'only the way Paul received it, by personal visitation'...anywhere in my post.

Even though our Lord doesn’t expect us to accept the words of His prophets simply on their say so, our Lord does declare His will to us through prophets.

So what does that have to do with my post?

We are then held accountable for how we respond to their messages, and through a testimony from the Holy Ghost we can know that those people speak the truth.

Again....what does this have to do with my post. I was simply addressing Shawn about being born again.

When teaching..remember it must be through God...His Spirit...or not at all.

Alma 18: 34

34 Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true;

D&C 42: 14

14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

[Shawn]

This response is to Strawberry Fields,

Please don't assign titles or intentions to me or Born-Again Mormon Ministries. My book will not save a fly let alone a creation of God and I do not, cannot, will not claim CREDIT (as you put it) for people to experience salvation or rebirth. When you assign titles/intentions you are fighting a cheap battle. Let's stay with the facts. I claim Latter-day Saints do not teach, preach or substantiate through their services or lives genuine spiritual regeneration as evidenced by innumerable reborn Christians who are not denominationally connected. I maintain that Latter-day Saints insist on saying that the man Joseph Smith is a necessary for people to experience salvation (eternal life, exhaltation) and that Jesus alone is/was not enough? Am I right or wrong and please speak to these questions directly. Thank you.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Ray+ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You seem to be undermining the work of prophets, Peace.

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

This is a bit rash of you Ray.

I didn’t claim that you were undermining the work of prophets, Peace. I told you what your words seemed to be saying to me when you said:

“I believe we lose the intimacy with God when we go about telling everyone else what they should be doing in order to be in compliance with God. If someone is searching for such...the Lord will lead them as He did with Paul.”

It could accurately be said that prophets “go about telling everyone else what they should be doing in order to be in compliance with God, don’t you think? They don’t coerce anyone into accepting their teachings, but their teachings are published for all the world to see along with their claims that these teachings are inspired by God. Do you believe prophets lose the intimacy with God when they go about doing that?

By saying that the Lord will lead someone who is searching for truth as He did with Paul, what did you mean? How else did our Lord lead Paul to a knowledge of the gospel truth except through a physical visitation on the road to Damascus? All prophets are inspired by God, but you seem to be making a distinction with Paul. Why else would you distinguish Paul as an example of how our Lord leads someone to the truth unless you wanted to emphasize that distinction?

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Was that your intent?

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

No and if you had taken a little pondering time, you would have gotten that without my help.

What should I have been pondering while taking a little more pondering time? Based on the information you gave me to ponder, I think I came up with a rational understanding of what you were trying to say. Were you hoping that the Holy Ghost might reveal more information about what you were thinking than you did?

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Do you believe that all people should wait until they see the Lord as Paul did, or otherwise remain without a knowledge of the truth?

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

I stated that everyone should be led by the Lord to Him. I gave Paul as just one example...should I expound with a longer list...such as Enos, etc. Where did I make a statement that even included the word or concept of prophet?

Not quite. You stated that the Lord will lead (someone who is searching for truth) as He did with Paul. You seemed to be using Paul as an example of how our Lord leads someone to a knowledge of the truth, and how did our Lord lead Paul to a knowledge of the truth? By a physical visitation on the road to Damascus. If you merely meant “by revelation”, why did you distinguish Paul by using him as an example?

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Don’t you believe that our Lord also declares His will to us through prophets, and that we are accountable for our behavior after listening to those people?

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

Where did you get this from my short little post?

That’s just it, I didn’t get that idea from your short little post, but I do now have hopes that you believe this. I asked for clarification so that you could further explain what you believe, and whether or not you believe that is essential to listen and reflect upon the words of peoole who claim to be prophets.

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

After Paul was converted, He was told to go and preach the gospel to the so-called Gentiles.

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

Preaching the Gospel...hmmmm. Do you know what the gospel is? Read 3 Nephi 27:13-21 (quotation of scriptures).  The scriptures tell it all.

You asked another question instead of replying to my question. Yes, I do know what the gospel is, and I do know that the scriptures tell it all, but who tells the scriptures? How do you know what scripture is unless you receive a confirmation of the truth contained in those messages, with the confirmation being received through a testimony from the Holy Ghost?

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Do you believe that each one of those Gentiles needed to wait until they received a physical visitation from the Lord, or did they come to know the truth by some other way?

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

The scriptures are available today for everyone... and...btw..are you saying that Shawn is a prophet?

Yes, the scriptures are available today for everyone, but why should anyone believe that the teachings we have in the “scriptures” have come from God? Should we believe that the teachings we have in the “scriptures” are from God just because someone says so?

And btw, No, I am not saying that Shawn is a prophet. I don’t believe that Shawn is a prophet for 2 reasons:

1) I don’t have an assurance from God to confirm to me that Shawn is speaking the truth

2) Shawn is testifying against the teachings taught by Joseph Smith, and I know that Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God.

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Or do you believe that they never had an opportunity to know the truth, until each one of them received a physical visitation from our Lord, because they had no other way to know that Paul was telling the truth?

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

Did I say that? I believe you have made way too much of my post... without sufficient evidence. IOW you are putting many concepts and words and meanings to what I simply stated as one example.

I didn't say 'only the way Paul received it, by personal visitation'...anywhere in my post.

Did I say that you were saying something, or did I ask whether or not you were saying something? FYI, I was asking questions. I asked for further clarification from you to refute what you seemed to be saying. When a person offers an example, I presume that their example is meant to help make their point. What point was I supposed to presume from your example of Paul? You still haven’t answered that question.

Heh, and concerning making too much out of your post, you could have simply answered my questions instead of separating each comment I made line by line. Did you really have all this trouble trying to understand what I was asking and trying to explain about what it seemed like you were saying?

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

Even though our Lord doesn’t expect us to accept the words of His prophets simply on their say so, our Lord does declare His will to us through prophets.

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

So what does that have to do with my post?

That’s a question I was asking you. If you believe the Lord does speak to us through prophets, you didn’t clarify that belief in your post, so I was sharing my understanding of our need for prophets. From some of your other posts that I can recall, you seem to have a lot of trouble accepting and sustaining the leadership within the church as prophets and apostles of our Lord.

Originally posted by -Ray@ Feb 2 2004, 10:31 AM

We are then held accountable for how we respond to their messages, and through a testimony from the Holy Ghost we can know that those people speak the truth.

Originally posted by -Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

Again....what does this have to do with my post. I was simply addressing Shawn about being born again.

I was further sharing my understanding of our need for prophets, for the benefit of both you and Shawn. For you, only if you don’t accept our need for prophets more than you shared in your post. For Shawn, because from what he said in his post, he also doesn’t seem to see and understand our need for prophets. My perception of his perspective comes from his statement that a knowledge of Jesus Christ is the ONLY thing necessary to live with God again, and from what appeared to be derisions about our belief that salvation is not available without the teachings that were revealed through Joseph Smith.

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@ Feb 2 2004, 11:23 AM

When teaching, remember it must be through God...His Spirit...or not at all.

Good thought. So tell me, what does this principle have to do with what you and I and Shawn are saying?

[Ray]

Shawn,

You can read my response to your thoughts in the above post that I directed toward Peace. To boil it down to a single thought, I will say that you can not honestly say that you accept Jesus Christ without also accepting the people He inspires to declare His will to us. Joseph Smith was one such person. If you disregard the teachings of our Lord that came through Joseph Smith, you are essentially rejecting the teachings of Jesus Christ himself. Whether our Lord's teachings come directly from our Lord himself or one of His authorized servants, it is the same, and you will be held accountable for your behavior toward your knowledge of what all of our Lord's servants have taught.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 12:38 PM

This response is to Strawberry Fields,

Please don't assign titles or intentions to me or Born-Again Mormon Ministries. My book will not save a fly let alone a creation of God and I do not, cannot, will not claim CREDIT (as you put it) for people to experience salvation or rebirth. When you assign titles/intentions you are fighting a cheap battle. Let's stay with the facts. I claim Latter-day Saints do not teach, preach or substantiate through their services or lives genuine spiritual regeneration as evidenced by innumerable reborn Christians who are not denominationally connected. I maintain that Latter-day Saints insist on saying that the man Joseph Smith is a necessary for people to experience salvation (eternal life, exhaltation) and that Jesus alone is/was not enough? Am I right or wrong and please speak to these questions directly. Thank you.

Shawn,

I do not feel that your intentions are wrong. I do feel that some work needs to be done in having the saints appreciate giving service. I can only speak from my particular experience though. I believe that true service from the heart brings us closer to becoming more like Christ. :) True service for the sake of serving and loving another, is extremely beneficial to our spirits.

I don't believe however as you put it... that we must be saved the Joseph Smith, the man. What part of your ministries remains Mormon? I am trying to stick to just the facts. :)

You (very nicely) ask me not to assign titles to your own title of the Born Again Mormon Ministries? I don't get it.

[Shawn]

The titles part was you claiming that I was somehow referring to myself as a prophet. I am no more a prophet for writing/starting BAM (Born-Again Mormon) than you are for expressing your opinion on this message board. Okay, let me understand this . . . you do say Joseph Smith is necessary for your salvation or are you saying Joseph Smith is not necessary for your salvation. I would like a straight answer to this question if you could. Thank you.

Shawn

[Ray]

Shawn,

Are you only interested in getting Strawberry Field's response to your question or is this question directed at all of us who are LDS on this board?

If it's not too much trouble, I'd appreciate a response to my response concerning your question, preferably after you've given my response some careful consideration.

Thank you. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Ray...your post was way too long to quote...and work through and it didn't seem to make you understand any better the last time...so...just forget it. Okay?

[Shawn]

Ray,

I have limited time to read these posts - you're probably in the same boat. This is why I requested no scripture-citing responses. Now please don't say that this (scriptures) are our source of truth because I understand this. But I am looking for direct, clean, concise responses to specific claims Latter-day Saints insist on making (like, We're Chrsitians or We belive in being born-again). THis is where I am looking for insights and genuine, real-life arguements. If you have some, let's hear them.

In Jesus,

Shawn

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 12:38 AM

Active, honest Latter-day Saints must admit that rarely is the topic of spiritual rebirth every mentioned in church, and that when the rubber meets the road, Jesus is but a footnote to the religion. I am not slamming...

Gosh,

I've only read two post from this guy and in both he has implied that Latter-Day Saints are prone to dishonestly (oh my he's not slamming).

This is "agenda" meets the road, eh Shawn.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 12:38 AM

Active, honest Latter-day Saints must admit... that when the rubber meets the road, Jesus is but a footnote to the religion. I am not slamming, I am stating what I feel is fact.

Well, let's see.

In priesthood yesterday, the lesson, taken from a First Presidency message, discussed the four cornerstones of the restoration, the first and principle of all being Christ and the atonement.

Do you have any other uneducated statements to make?

[Shawn]

Dear Snow,

Don't go into attack mode now. My statements are not necessarily uneducated. Because YOUR priesthood messege yesterday assigned Jesus one of the "four posts essential to the restoration" doesn't mean He is discussed in the Church at large (specific, personal examples are always a ridiculous way of forming a defense.) You can get defensive and call me uneducated or whatever, but there is a real reason the Christian community gets all over Latter-day Saints. Of course, your response might be that they are evil, jealous, mislead or misinformed but the truth of the matter is, Jesus is at MOST one of many essential reasons the LDS Church exists where in Christianity He is the ONLY reason the Church exists - as a means to bring Man in the presence of God. Speak facts, Snow. There is a lot more to salvation in the LDS Church than God-given faith on Jesus Christ, so don't act like your lesson yesterday (although it doesn't even give Jesus the allegiance He deserves) is a normative event. Please explain for all to read the role Jesus plays in your life?

Shawn

[Ray]

Originally posted by Shawn@ Feb 2 2004, 05:39 PM

…Jesus is at MOST one of many essential reasons the LDS Church exists where in Christianity He is the ONLY reason the Church exists - as a means to bring Man in the presence of God. Speak facts, Snow. There is a lot more to salvation in the LDS Church than God-given faith on Jesus Christ…

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the only reason the Church exists, and that the Church exists as a means to bring Man in the presence of God?

I can pretty much agree with that. What makes you think the Church doesn’t agree with that? Is it because the Church goes into detail about some things to explain how our Lord will bring us into the presence of our Father in heaven? Is it because the Church explains more about the nature of our Father in heaven, and the nature of our Lord, and what it will mean to be in the presence of our Father in heaven? Is it because the Church explains our role in coming into the presence of our Father in heaven, and some obstacles that will prevent some people from coming into the presence of our Father in heaven?

Are there just too many other details for you to understand that the main message of the gospel is to help us know how we can return to the presence of our Father in heaven? I think you didn’t get enough milk when you were growing up and that you still need to hear the basic doctrines. That’s not a problem. Go back to Sunday School and attend the Gospel Principles class.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Feb 2 2004, 05:39 PM

Dear Snow,

Don't go into attack mode now.

Gosh, you have been both insulting and dishonest in each of your posts and then your concerned that I notice it? Imagine my discomfort.

Because YOUR priesthood messege yesterday assigned Jesus one of the "four posts essential to the restoration" doesn't mean He is discussed in the Church at large (specific, personal examples are always a ridiculous way of forming a defense.)

Lessee, you have offered no evidence to support your position but act annoyed when someone offers antidotal evidence? Wow, that's persausive. Say, you're not a professional debater are you?

You can get defensive and call me uneducated or whatever, but there is a real reason the Christian community gets all over Latter-day Saints.

Uneducated or dishonest. Take your pick, either is applicable in the case of your first half dozen posts.

Of course, your response might be that they are evil, jealous, mislead or misinformed but the truth of the matter is, Jesus is at MOST one of many essential reasons the LDS Church exists where in Christianity He is the ONLY reason the Church exists - as a means to bring Man in the presence of God.  Speak facts, Snow.

Golly, you admonish me to "speak facts," when in point of fact, you have done nothing but offer your own agenda ladden opinion. Some people call that hypocritical. I just call it hypocritical.

Since I am in a generous mood, here a little help for you. Drop the stupid agenda. No one here is as dumb as you think they are and as you treat them. Many are a whole lot brighter than you. We routinely send those who are as clumsy as you have been packing.

[Shawn]

Members of this board,

I will consider myself "sent packing" and apologize for getting involved in somthing I don't fully understand (before you get too excited at your victory, I'm speaking of message boards and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ). I have discovered that sincerity cannot be expressed in this form of communication and the end result can be sarcasm (of which I too have been guilty). I'm pretty certain that were we all in a room face to face with an unbiased monitor all my questions (and yours) would receive a reasonable response and the exact positions of both sides would be made known. I know when I'm out of my league and in this forum I am. I apologize for whatever I have implied, said, or requested that got the dander up of the regulars. Relentlessness is my natural (albeit erroneous) response when I sense I'm getting the run-around on something, but I will assume I am the one whose brought all the hostility and beg your forgiveness for my inept attempts at on-line discussions. I ask your fogiveness, admit my guilt, and resign from attempting to spread a message I am convincted to spread. I must find other avenues of expression than this.

In Jesus,

Shawn McCraney