Explain Your Rebirth, Mormons

[Ray]

Heh, I added a third paragraph to my post above that you may have missed. I’ve also been trying to edit that post so that it is easily understandable, so don’t go by the time listed in the edit message.

Anyway, I’ll post it again in this response.

Btw, the original issue was that Joseph Smith is essential in our salvation, not merely our relationship with our Lord.  Joseph Smith is essential in our salvation because of the importance of the teachings that God revealed through him.  For future reference, if any prophet of God ever comes to you and says that God has a message that you need to hear, and that message affects your salvation, you can rest assured that your salvation will be influenced by your acceptance of that message and the person who delivered it.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Peace@ Feb 3 2004, 03:12 PM

Wow...Now I understand where the dividing line has come...LOL

Salvation cometh only through Christ...knowledge of Christ comes through prophets and personal revelation. 

Yes, salvation comes only through Christ, but prophets play an essential role in helping us understand and receive that salvation. If you disregard any prophet of God, or the role of prophets, or the messages they deliver, you are affecting your own salvation.

And there’s another thought! You affect your own salvation, as I affect my own salvation. In other words, Christ is not the only person who is responsible for our salvation. We must listen to Him, and do what He tells us, before He will claim us as His own and redeem us. Listening to Him involves listening to His prophets, because Christ doesn’t tell us everything He wants us to know in person.

[Lindy]

Yes, salvation comes only through Christ, but prophets play an essential role in helping us understand and receive that salvation

Thank you Ray for clarifying that....I think that receiving that salvation are the key words here....it's up to us to act upon what we understand and receive Christ in our lives. Which fits perfectly into the next quote:

And there’s another thought! You affect your own salvation, as I affect my own salvation. In other words, Christ is not the only person who is responsible for our salvation.

EXACTLY!

I know that it is the responsiblity of followers of Christ to share with others to help them on the path of redemption, and that the prophets are an instrument of God to share and help guide. But it ultimately comes down to the personal relationship between the individual and his views and feelings, his faith and convictions.

[Ray]

Can we now nod our heads and say,

Yes, prophets are essential to our salvation.

Joseph Smith is included among the prophets of God.

So acceptance of Joseph Smith is essential to our salvation.

Hmmm ??? :)

If we can't receive salvation without accepting the teachings that our Lord gives to us through prophets, then it seems to me that the prophets are essential to our salvation.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 3 2004, 04:11 PM

Can we now nod our heads and say,

"Yes, prophets are essential to our salvation" ???

And that Joseph Smith is included as among those people who can be called propets of God?

And that an acceptance of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God is essential to our salvation?

Hmmm ???

Yes Ray, I can nod my head and say that prophets of old and modern day (including Joseph Smith) are essential to help us understand certain aspects about God.

And I know that I will meet others in heaven who have no clue who Joseph Smith is, but were saved because of their faith and the kind of people they were on earth.

I told you I am pig headed

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556@ Feb 3 2004, 04:27 PM

And I know that I will meet others in heaven who have no clue who Joseph Smith is, but were saved because of their faith and the kind of people they were on earth.

I told you I am pig headed. 

Heh, you are too cute, and you may have a point there, but I have a feeling that the people in heaven know what has been going on down here. I think they all knew about Joseph Smith, and if they didn’t know about him, that they will know about him, and they’ll have the opportunity to either accept or reject him as someone who was and still is a person blessed with the spirit of prophecy. And btw, we are included among the people who were in heaven, and hopefully someday we’ll be going back.

[Lindy]

touché Ray touché!

and HOPEFULLY? LOL

This has been fun,

-------------

Edited:

On second thought....you ARE a married man.....so I'll just end with

ooooooooo (hugs)

[srm]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 3 2004, 02:01 PM

Sorry Ray,

You know that I hold you in the highest regard, but I cannot say that Joseph Smith is essential to my salvation.

I realize that he was a prophet and I know the contribution he gave us translating the plates and restoring the church of Christ. But my salvation comes from Christ, not depending on my acceptance or what came from JS. He was a man..... and don't get me started on what I think of men right now...you wouldn't like me very much after I was done....

Yes, as a man he did great things....and as a man he screwed up IMO. I know that there are great men, and great prophets, but I will never say that my salvation rests on them, any of them.

I accepted Christ way before I joined the church...what I have learned since then has just been icing on the cake. My eyes were opened to a different way of thinking, a different feeling in my heart and the knowledge of things I had questioned. I like where I am at in my relationship with Christ.

I love what he (JS) did for the better of man, but JS just doesn't have a place in that relationship.

My 2 cents,

Lindy

I agree that your salvation should be in and through Christ. But one must receive the ordinances of salvation. These are avaiable only through the priesthood. That priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. Ergo; we need his work to be saved by Jesus Christ

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm@Feb 3 2004, 08:02 PM

I agree that your salvation should be in and through Christ. But one must receive the ordinances of salvation. These are avaiable only through the priesthood. That priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. Ergo; we need his work to be saved by Jesus Christ

Hmmm,

Right now I can't think of a reason why ordinances are important/essential. I can understand the reasoning behind treating others with kindness, repentance, honesty, charity, service, etc. I even understand the logic behind the word of wisdom and maybe the law of chastidy, kind of. But, I don't understand why ordinance are required. Oh, I accept them and believe in them soley on the basis of faith, though I am not even sure why faith in them is important. It's not even a matter of faith in God. It's a matter in what another man says is the will of God. So, it's like faith, once removed.

[Guest lt]

Shawn,

To me a spiritual rebirth is when I have found myself or the gospel after I have been at a stand still point for way to long. Everyone at one point in there life has had a spiritual rebirth...Or a recommittment to what they believe in.

Laureltree

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 3 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 3 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Feb 3 2004, 08:02 PM

I agree that your salvation should be in and through Christ.  But one must receive the ordinances of salvation.  These are avaiable only through the priesthood.  That priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith.  Ergo; we need his work to be saved by Jesus Christ

Hmmm,

Right now I can't think of a reason why ordinances are important/essential. I can understand the reasoning behind treating others with kindness, repentance, honesty, charity, service, etc. I even understand the logic behind the word of wisdom and maybe the law of chastidy, kind of. But, I don't understand why ordinance are required. Oh, I accept them and believe in them soley on the basis of faith, though I am not even sure why faith in them is important. It's not even a matter of faith in God. It's a matter in what another man says is the will of God. So, it's like faith, once removed.

Which ordinances are you talking about? Anything specific?

How about baptism, for example. The ordinance of baptism symbolizes the death of a life dictated by our own desires and rebirth to a new life with Christ as our Lord. We should be baptized because we are willing to do that, deny our own will and submit to Christ, that is, and also because we have been told that baptism is required.

Would we be following our Lord or submitting to His will if we didn’t do what He said to do the way He said to do it? Hmmm. I don’t think so. We can learn about what it means to be spiritually reborn, for instance, and we can put some of those concepts into practice to a certain extent, but without full compliance to His laws we are not considered to be in full compliance with what He requires.

The ordinance of marriage now comes to my mind. Can we be married if we do not comply with the ordinance required by the government or civil leadership we are under? You may say that my example is flawed because I’m using an example from the “real” world, but heaven consists of real worlds too, with laws and ordinances that must be obeyed. I can’t think of any way to become married without being obedient to the laws that govern what constitutes marriage. Without obedience or compliance to the laws that govern marriage, two people who simply "know" each other are not considered to be married.

This also introduces the idea concerning the need for priesthood. Can anyone marry any two people who desire to become married? Not without first acquiring the proper authorization, right? Only people who are duly authorized to perform a marriage ceremony can bind two people in a marriage ceremony considered to be legally binding and compliant with the laws governing marriage. If you want to be considered married in the state of Texas, for instance, you must be in compliance with the laws governing marriage in Texas before you are considered to be married in Texas. The laws of heaven are no different. If you want to be considered married in heaven you must comply with what is required by the laws of heaven before you are considered to be married in heaven.

I'm sure you would have thought of this, Snow, if you had just tried to think a little harder. :)

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 3 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 3 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Feb 3 2004, 08:02 PM

I agree that your salvation should be in and through Christ.  But one must receive the ordinances of salvation.  These are avaiable only through the priesthood.  That priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith.  Ergo; we need his work to be saved by Jesus Christ

Hmmm,

Right now I can't think of a reason why ordinances are important/essential. I can understand the reasoning behind treating others with kindness, repentance, honesty, charity, service, etc. I even understand the logic behind the word of wisdom and maybe the law of chastidy, kind of. But, I don't understand why ordinance are required. Oh, I accept them and believe in them soley on the basis of faith, though I am not even sure why faith in them is important. It's not even a matter of faith in God. It's a matter in what another man says is the will of God. So, it's like faith, once removed.

It depends on whether you believe the scriptures or not. The clearly teach the need for certain ordinances.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 4 2004, 10:03 AM

Right now I can't think of a reason why ordinances are important/essential. I can understand the reasoning behind treating others with kindness, repentance, honesty, charity, service, etc. I even understand the logic behind the word of wisdom and maybe the law of chastidy, kind of. But, I don't understand why ordinance are required. Oh, I accept them and believe in them soley on the basis of faith, though I am not even sure why faith in them is important. It's not even a matter of faith in God. It's a matter in what another man says is the will of God. So, it's like faith, once removed.

Which ordinances are you talking about? Anything specific?

How about baptism, for example. The ordinance of baptism symbolizes the death of a life dictated by our own desires and rebirth to a new life with Christ as our Lord. We should be baptized because we are willing to do that, deny our own will and submit to Christ, that is, and also because we have been told that baptism is required.

Would we be following our Lord or submitting to His will if we didn’t do what He said to do the way He said to do it? Hmmm. I don’t think so. We can learn about what it means to be spiritually reborn, for instance, and we can put some of those concepts into practice to a certain extent, but without full compliance to His laws we are not considered to be in full compliance with what He requires.

The ordinance of marriage now comes to my mind. Can we become married if we do not comply with the ordinance required by the government or civil leadership we are under? You may say that my example is flawed because I’m using an example from the “real” world, but heaven consists of real worlds too, with laws and ordinances that must be obeyed. I can’t think of any way to become married without being obedient to the laws that govern what constitutes marriage. Without obedience or compliance to law, two people who simply "know" each other are not considered to be married.

This also introduces the idea concerning the need for priesthood. Can anyone marry any two people who desire to become married? Not without first acquiring the proper authorization, right? Only people who are duly authorized to perform a marriage ceremony can bind two people in a marriage ceremony considered to be legally binding and compliant with the laws governing marriage. If you want to be considered married in the state of Texas, you must be in compliance with what is required by the laws of Texas before you are considered to be married in Texas. The laws of heaven are no different. If you want to be considered married in heaven you must comply with what is required by the laws of heaven before you are considered to be married in heaven.

I'm sure you would have thought of this, Snow, if you had just tried to think a little harder. :)

WOW Ray...all I can say, WOW; that was pretty deep thinking, it made sense to me.

[Ray]

Thank you. :)

Sharing my thoughts about things that are true with words that make sense to people is one of my goals in life, because a confirmation from the Holy Ghost comes more easily when people understand what is being shared.

Sarcasm seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and highbrow words are too high for a lot of common folk to grasp.

I’m still trying to figure out at what point I might be saying too much, though. I tend to want to share everything I know, without a lot of consideration for whether or not someone should receive what I’m trying to share with them.

For now, if someone doesn’t understand what I understand after I try to share my understanding to the best of my abilities, I’ll just figure they weren’t supposed to understand what I was trying to share because they weren’t prepared to receive. :)

Btw, I still give thanks to the gods for my Edit button.