The great council in heaven, a question about Lucifer?

[TootsieBlue]

Ok, so before we came to earth Heavenly Fathers Plan was put forward and we all agreed it. Then there had to be a decision of who would be our Saviour and Lucifer, The Son of the Morning put his thoughts forward and it was decided that it would be a bad idea, so he threw a fit and was kicked out and took a third of the host with him. Fine, I get that but.....

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

So does that then mean, it this isnt' the case. That we do need a Saviour but that this world has a Satin but not all worlds? Or in a different way.

And just as Eve was made from Adam's rib, if they had stayed in the Garden of Eden longer would they have had children in the same manner as Eve was created. I understand that Heavenly Fathers Plan had to be started but perhaps the coming out of the Garden of Eden (in other worlds) would be in a different manner?

Ok, its 4.30am here and I've just got baby to bed so I'm off to bed too for hopefully 2 hours sleep or more before I have to get up. Please if you can help me on this as I've been studying Moses and Exodus and have left myself with lots of questions and I'm only getting sketchy answers from my Husband and other Church Members.

Thanks in advance,

Tootsie

[BenRaines]

As I understand it Jesus Christ is Savior to all God's creations. One Plan of Salvation. One Savior. The Plan of Salvation is God's not ours. His many creations fall under the same plan, need same Savior.

I don't believe that God has done this over and over through exaltation for many creations. When this world was created, as it had been done before, it means to me for God's plan of salvation to go forward.

It is not said that God has taken a creation all the way through the process of exaltation before, only that other worlds were created. With that in mind then none had been resurrected on other worlds either until Christ's resurrection.

Do all the spirits of all the creations go to the same spirit world?

As discussed in another thread it was not the 1/3 that were lead away but the "third part". Does not necessarily mean 1/3 but that there were three parts or divisions and he lead one of them away, Satan.

Ben Raines

[Justice]

Yeah, there are a lot of things that need to be discussed and understood before you can just give these answers.

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

I don't really understand exactly what you're asking here. But, I'll explain a bit about what I believe.

We need to keep in mind that "eternity" (where God dwells) is not the same as "time" (where we dwell now). It is very hard for us to have an eternal perspective because, frankly, we just don't think "eternal" because we aren't eternal in this existence.

I believe that eternity is made up of "rounds" or "generations." All of Heavenly Father's creations (which He delegated the work of creation, which included teaching His children how) are for this round or generation of man. This same thing has been going on for eternity. As one creation (or heaven and earth) pass away, another is made in its place. That does not mean it is created by the same beings, or in the exact same place, or that it is a perfect duplicate of the one before. It means the same process is used to exalt man.

Without getting too deep, that's what I believe.

So, Jehova (Jesus Christ) is the Savior for all the worlds created in this eternal round, which are all of God's creations in this round or generation, which can't be numbered by man.

We know that our Father in Heaven once dwelt on an earth like this and was glorified and perfected. His Son could not have been His Savior. If He, Himself, was not the Savior of His eternal round, then He needed one.

Don't get too caught up on "Eve was created from Adam's rib." There are many things it can mean.

It is very difficult discussing things like this with anyone. At some point you have to delve into speculation. It is then you should stop, study more, and pray intently to ask for guidance, ponder and pray, arrive at a conclusion, then ask if your conclusion is right. Nothing that anyone can ever say will convince you of truths such as these.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Justice

[ninjormon]

2 Nephi 2 : 11

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

This means that every time that this process takes place there has to be a bad in order for there to be a good in order for people to have the choice that they would not have in the spirit world, In the spirit world there are certain laws that must be obeyed in order to stay in the spirit world, by that I mean celestial kingdom. And correct me if I am wrong but the main messages are Heavenly Father is the creator of this world and many others but that doesnt mean that there is not another Heavenly Father for another earth with other plans for the other earths but two things must be present in any case, freedom and opposition, correct?

My follow up question for ben, justice, or hemi is now that we are here assuming we endure to the end, will we eventually have to be the saviour of a world that we create through Heavenly Fathers guidance just as Christ did, or create a world and then send our own children thereafter?

[BenRaines]

I don't believe we will need to be a Savior of a world we create. Believe have spirit children and then send them to a world to learn and show faith. Perhaps many worlds and one of them will need a Savior for all worlds.

This is just thought. Not based on doctrine, gospel teachings just a line of thought.

Ben Raines

[TootsieBlue]

thankyou all for your answers, it has helped me to be more clear on what the scriptures are saying.

Particularly that it is Heavenly Father that has created the worlds without number and not lots of different Gods with all the different worlds.

Thanks again,

Tootsie

[Hemidakota]

2 Nephi 2 : 11

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

My follow up question for ben, justice, or hemi is now that we are here assuming we endure to the end, will we eventually have to be the saviour of a world that we create through Heavenly Fathers guidance just as Christ did, or create a world and then send our own children thereafter?

No....but we will adhere to the pattern set forth when we are GODs ourselves as we create our own worlds and send forth spirits of our own creation.

[Guest tomk]

I think Justice is right (not that it matters if I agree or not).

D&C 76: 4, 6, 8, 33, 44, 86, 105

4 From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.

• • •

6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.

• • •

8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.

• • •

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

• • •

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

• • •

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

• • •

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

God measures his existence in terms of "eternities" - units of eternity. He DID have a beginning .... but it has been so LONG AGO now that, for all intents and purposes ... especially for our puny brains .... He has existed "forever". Or it might as well be thought of in those terms ... for to quantify it would be meaningless to us.

These things make so much more sense when we remember God is speaking to us as His CHILDREN. We do not understand all things.

In terms of ETERNITY -- when something is wrought, like the Atonement, it goes FORWARD and BACKWARD through all "time" - it is timeless. It is as if it has always existed.

It was not just for THIS WORLD -- but for all of creation for all time.

[Hemidakota]

Yeah, there are a lot of things that need to be discussed and understood before you can just give these answers.

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

I don't really understand exactly what you're asking here. But, I'll explain a bit about what I believe.

We need to keep in mind that "eternity" (where God dwells) is not the same as "time" (where we dwell now). It is very hard for us to have an eternal perspective because, frankly, we just don't think "eternal" because we aren't eternal in this existence.

I believe that eternity is made up of "rounds" or "generations." All of Heavenly Father's creations (which He delegated the work of creation, which included teaching His children how) are for this round or generation of man. This same thing has been going on for eternity. As one creation (or heaven and earth) pass away, another is made in its place. That does not mean it is created by the same beings, or in the exact same place, or that it is a perfect duplicate of the one before. It means the same process is used to exalt man.

Without getting too deep, that's what I believe.

So, Jehova (Jesus Christ) is the Savior for all the worlds created in this eternal round, which are all of God's creations in this round or generation, which can't be numbered by man.

We know that our Father in Heaven once dwelt on an earth like this and was glorified and perfected. His Son could not have been His Savior. If He, Himself, was not the Savior of His eternal round, then He needed one.

Don't get too caught up on "Eve was created from Adam's rib." There are many things it can mean.

It is very difficult discussing things like this with anyone. At some point you have to delve into speculation. It is then you should stop, study more, and pray intently to ask for guidance, ponder and pray, arrive at a conclusion, then ask if your conclusion is right. Nothing that anyone can ever say will convince you of truths such as these.

I don't believe that is the case since each world will require opposition and a Savior overall for that period of creation. If Lucifer is placed in chaos or hell, then where is the opposition required for a determine creational worlds under a FATHERs realm?

Getting caught up with the 'rib' will unlock the mysteries of 'AHEM'.

[Hemidakota]

Ok, so before we came to earth Heavenly Fathers Plan was put forward and we all agreed it. Then there had to be a decision of who would be our Saviour and Lucifer, The Son of the Morning put his thoughts forward and it was decided that it would be a bad idea, so he threw a fit and was kicked out and took a third of the host with him. Fine, I get that but.....

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

So does that then mean, it this isnt' the case. That we do need a Savior but that this world has a Satin but not all worlds? Or in a different way.

And just as Eve was made from Adam's rib, if they had stayed in the Garden of Eden longer would they have had children in the same manner as Eve was created. I understand that Heavenly Fathers Plan had to be started but perhaps the coming out of the Garden of Eden (in other worlds) would be in a different manner?

Ok, its 4.30am here and I've just got baby to bed so I'm off to bed too for hopefully 2 hours sleep or more before I have to get up. Please if you can help me on this as I've been studying Moses and Exodus and have left myself with lots of questions and I'm only getting sketchy answers from my Husband and other Church Members.

Thanks in advance,

Tootsie

Not all of the spirit creation [children] of our FATHER was presented during this first encounter or council. Only those who were selected or called, as Abraham stated, the great and noble ones, were part of the council. Only later after perhaps many councils were held before the one, when GOD finally provided a plan for ratification or approval from all of HIS children, is where the selection of the Savior of an earth and for that period of creation. It was then that Lucifer was angered over GOD’s selection of whom to be the Savior. I do believe prior to the those who were casted out, many were there who had to make the last choice, through efforts of missionary work, being influence, with supporting GOD’s plan or face exposition. Many as it already stated, a third, was casted out GOD’s presence. Those who remain behind that had to make a choice were given the opportunity of mortal life for doing so. What I am saying, not all of the spirit creation did agree wholeheartedly with GOD’s selection and the plan.

When is a Savior necessary? I think you will find the answer in the D&C as a parable of 12 –servants were sent out to the Lord’s Vineyard. We are the last hour spirit children who are now cohabitating this earth.

What does become of the Savior? He will take up His place in the FATHER’s business in creating more worlds, spirits, and so forth. The expansion continues as He will follow the same pattern set forth.

Follow that known pattern; what we need to remember is that our creation is not the whole universe. That is not the case. Enoch, Moses, Abraham, and Joseph all testify on what they observed. There are others beside our FATHER. GOD is not alone. As there is a beginning as there is an end to all…it is called progression. We fulfill that state as to laws pertaining to it before moving to the next.

I do see many paths of choices for both Adams in the Garden of Eden. They were sealed as a couple and were given instruction over a period residing within that sphere, too different levels of knowledge required for sustainment; as a tender parent teaches his/her children. Nothing is rushed but provides what was necessary for that state until it is obeyed before coming back to teach additional knowledge. Could they have children in the garden? Yes? Both were immortal beings and very capable of having offspring. What would be the offspring? Immortal beings! What is the difference of immortal and mortal beings? This I will leave it your hand to ponder over. Eve’s inquisitiveness and the rush to learn, without waiting for the return parents, fell prey to Lucifer and his dominions presence in the garden that brought forth the fall quickly. Now, in other worlds I can see this happening but for all of FATHERS creation for this period needs a Savior [pattern that has been used before in other creation] and this world was selected to be the ground on which this must needs to take place. It was not destined for other worlds within the FATHER’s realm but this earth. FATHER already knows which earth can obey HIS laws and endure the necessary agony of pain from humanity in order to forefill HIS plan. Not all worlds are worthy to be made Celestial. It was necessary for both Adams to fall in order to allow this plan to be fulfilled and the creation to continue.

[ruthiechan]

I do see many paths of choices for both Adams in the Garden of Eden. They were sealed as a couple and were given instruction over a period residing within that sphere, too different levels of knowledge required for sustainment; as a tender parent teaches his/her children. Nothing is rushed but provides what was necessary for that state until it is obeyed before coming back to teach additional knowledge. Could they have children in the garden? Yes? Both were immortal beings and very capable of having offspring. What would be the offspring? Immortal beings! What is the difference of immortal and mortal beings? This I will leave it your hand to ponder over. Eve’s inquisitiveness and the rush to learn, without waiting for the return parents, fell prey to Lucifer and his dominions presence in the garden that brought forth the fall quickly. Now, in other worlds I can see this happening but for all of FATHERS creation for this period needs a Savior [pattern that has been used before in other creation] and this world was selected to be the ground on which this must needs to take place. It was not destined for other worlds within the FATHER’s realm but this earth. FATHER already knows which earth can obey HIS laws and endure the necessary agony of pain from humanity in order to forefill HIS plan. Not all worlds are worthy to be made Celestial. It was necessary for both Adams to fall in order to allow this plan to be fulfilled and the creation to continue.

I disagree.

Adam and Eve were innocent. They did know not good from evil. They were not ashamed of their nakedness, reflecting the childlike quality they had. Kids don't care about nudity until we teach them to care.

I do not believe that they would have ever procreated before the fall. Sexual desire wasn't a part of their physical bodies yet.

Eve noticed something that Adam had not. She realized that the only way to have the same knowledge that her Father had was to eat of the fruit so that she too would know good from evil. She wanted to be like her parents. What child does not want to be like their parents? She wanted the same for Adam.

I also do not understand why you believe Eve rushed into it. The passage of time is not stated. The only thing that is stated in the scriptures are certain events in relative sequence.

[Hemidakota]

So are my 0-8 year old children and being isolated from the world. See a pattern?

I do not agree, both Adam and Eve had the capacity to have children. Now, if you can tell me what had changed the inherited physical body by eating the fruit, I am all ears? :)

I am referring too her character. How would I know that one?

I will say in the end, we will know more about the garden and why Lucifer was allowed to roam freely.

[ruthiechan]

From: LDS.org - New Era Article - Q&A: Questions and Answers

“Why did the Lord command Adam and Eve to multiply in the Garden of Eden when they could not have children before the fall? This is especially confusing when we have such scriptures as 1 Nephi 3:7, which states ‘… the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.’ ”

Daniel H. Ludlow, “Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Sept. 1973, 13–14

Answer/ Daniel H. Ludlow

One important point to consider in this question is whether or not Adam and Eve could have had children while they were in the Garden of Eden. The scriptures do not say Adam and Eve could not have children; they say Adam and Eve would not have had children if they had remained in a state of innocence, not knowing good from evil.

For example, note the words of Lehi in explaining the situation of Adam and Eve before the fall: "And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.” (2 Ne. 2:23. Italics added.) This scripture seems to indicate that Adam and Eve were physically capable of having children in the Garden of Eden (thus they could have had children), but so long as they remained in their state of innocence, they never would have had children. Remember that Adam and Eve were so innocent in the Garden of Eden they didn’t even realize they were naked!

Sometimes it helps to understand a religious question if we ask ourselves, How else could our Heavenly Father have done this? For example, how else could our Heavenly Father have brought about the necessary conditions that resulted from the fall of Adam and Eve? Following are four possibilities, and the only acceptable one is the one followed by the Lord:

1. What if the Lord had created the world in such a way that evil and sin would have been here from the beginning? In this case, God would be responsible for all sin and evil.

2. What if God had created the world in such a way that we never could commit any sin? In other words, what if he had never given us any law? It is true that in such a condition we never could have broken a law (committed sin), and thus there would have been no evil, no pain, or no disease. But if there is no possibility for sin and for the punishment and misery that accompany it, then there is no possibility for good and for the blessings and joy that follow obedience to law. None of us would want that type of world.

3. What if God had created a world where he would give us law (the opportunity of choice) but would not give us free agency (the freedom of choice)? How could there be any real growth in this situation? What development is there if we do things only because we have to do them? Also, how could a just God hold us responsible for our acts if we had no choice in the matter?

4. The other major possibility is the one the Lord followed. He created a world that was without sin or evil, and he placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in a state of innocence. He then gave law (the opportunity of choice) to Adam and Eve, and he also gave them their free agency (the freedom of choice). Then, and this is a very important point, he did not hold Adam and Eve responsible for any transgression they committed in their state of innocence.

God knew before the earth was ever created that it would be necessary for Adam and Eve to fall so they “would have seed.” Thus, even before the earth was created, Jesus Christ had agreed that he would pay the penalty required by the law of justice for the transgression of the law that resulted in the fall of Adam and Eve. The scriptures refer to the Savior as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), and they indicate that Jesus Christ had agreed to bring about the atonement before the earth was ever created (1 Pet. 1:19–20; Eph. 1:4; Moses 5:57; D&C 121:32; Mosiah 18:13; Ether 3:14).

The second part of the question states, in essence, “Why didn’t the Lord prepare the way for Adam and Eve to keep the commandment to multiply?”

The answer to this question is that the Lord did prepare the way.

In this dispensation the Lord has revealed through Joseph Smith additional information concerning the status of Adam and Eve both before and after the fall. In fact, the Lord restored to the Prophet the words of Adam and Eve to each other after they had been driven from the Garden of Eden and had been taught by an angel that Jesus Christ would atone for their transgression unconditionally and also would atone for their own personal sins upon the condition of their repentance.

“And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God."

“And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.” (Moses 5:10–11. Italics added.)

[Hemidakota]

Ruthie, you did not answer my questions but restated something that Lehi taught out of the scriptures to his family. I am very familiar with what was given but I am asking you, what transform, from immortal beings to a mortal beings and why? Do you believe both Adams were born or created?

There is a key to answer the last stated scripture verse that was provided.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Some food for thought on this subject:

- We need to determine whether they were created or born of our Heavenly Parents. This makes a world of difference to the nature of the physical body.

- What was known physical attributes being in the Garden of Eden? After leaving the Garden?

- Among what was given in the garden, why was it necessary for both of them to eat? Or was it really necessary to eat at all? What type of food was provided? Were they allowed to eat anything else besides what was told?

- What was in the Plan of Salvation that was quite pertinent for both Adams to accomplish? Why?

- What was the knowledge state of both Adams?

- Who was teaching the Adams? After the fall, who taught both Adams?

- How long did it take for them to have offspring after leaving the Garden?

- For active temple holders: what was Lucifer response and why? Why was he allowed to roam in the garden when GOD sees all? What was his true purpose of being there?

- What did Moses noted when transgression came into their lives after partaking the fruit? What did Enoch learn from Adam?

There are more to add but TIME IS AN ESSENCE when it comes to gaining knowledge.

[ruthiechan]

Ruthie, you did not answer my questions but restated something that Lehi taught out of the scriptures to his family. I am very familiar with what was given but I am asking you, what transform, from immortal beings to a mortal beings and why? Do you believe both Adams were born or created?

There is a key to answer the last stated scripture verse that was provided.

I stated what I did because it seemed to me that you were saying that Adam and Eve would have eventually had children if they stayed in the Garden long enough. I disagreed with that notion for the reasons stated in my above posts. I also disagree with the notion that Eve was simply duped, which does not reflect well upon her at all, and I disagree with the idea that the fall happened quickly after Adam & Eve were created.

Please clarify what you mean by both Adams.

Edited January 28, 2009 by ruthiechan

[Sergg]

Distinct possibilities have been contemplated by such people as J.Smith, Brigham Young, Fielding Smith, or theologically, Ostler.

We could take the route of 'thinking according to famous authors' or authorities of the Church, or, according to our (or possible) interpretations of scripture, or, according to 'private revelation'(a criteria common to many here), or 'according to' mere thinking it through. But all overlapped does no good to any progress.

I remember discussing these things back then with a Seventy(friend of mine) and a Temple worker. One could deliniate , at least, the possible problems that each possible position encounters, for example:

a) The theory of Elohim All-for-All-eternity: If it follows that only Elohim as an individual, is the one allowed and actually endowed with the power of creating worlds 'everlasting' and sending children there, and that only one Christ was required to the atonement of all his creations, there is a conflict with:

a.1.the fact that the very D&C that one person quoted here in support of this, later on is specific regarding th eambiguity of the use 'God'; saying Smith did not fully know if it refered to 'many' or 'one', and hence, the identification of God of everlasting worlds from eternity to eternity as Elohim the individual, falls short of the very text it was taken out from; further teachings of Smith and Young themselves, regarding the God(S) that were anterior to Elohim and will be posterior to him are unavoidable, especially because Young states that we will 'send' children to spiritual worlds (he even mentions we* will be the 'Adam adn Eve' of such), and so on. It alo, and most importantly obliviates the diference of a sutile diferentiation needed here:

a.2. Elohim through his Christ saves all his creations: this theory, has it that Elohim only needs ONE christ to actually SAVE all his worlds (according to the theory, all world there are, were or will be). But this is some lucky situation then, for out of all eternal creations(both of before and after), ONLY US GOT THE CHANCE of having THE saviour of ALL possible worlds DYING and being born HERE. We are, then, at the very 'meridian of times' but not only the 'historical' ones, but of ETERNITY itself! Now, how narcisistic would that be of us to think?

a.2.The GODS through THEIR Christ save all worlds and creations: this theory, has it that it was not Elohim, but all Gods before and after, whom BENEFIT and actually NEED of this Christ to save ALL CREATIONS previous or future. But again, it would be very lucky that its US who get the chance. What would enter into conflict, for even Elohim, exalted by having been noble and believed the 'eternal gospel of christ' (a Christ yet to be engendered and exalted by Him...) would have to had believed by faith, and by faith in a yet spiritually begotten Cosmic Child; what would make more of Christ than all the gods together; a thing most far from Smith's teachings.

a.3. That Gods everlastingly exist succidingly and that Each has a Plan of Salvation for their creations, within which, there are Christs that redeem ALL of their private works; this theory, has it that Each Elohim and Mother send a Christ to save all their worlds. Or a variation of this theory is, that each Elohim and Mother send ONE Christ to EACH world of theirs. Conflict is, with the Scriptural basis of the nEED for ONE Christ for ALL creations; indeed ONE Christ that actually CREATED by command of God all THERE IS(or ig going to be).

a.3. Most important problem with ALL theories as such above: they AVOID teh real question, that of the origin and extent of Evil. For, as the BoM clearly states, and the PoGP, it is EVIL that produces the possibility of the very plan of salvation, of moral judgement and the concept of TESTING(for which, after all, all earths were initially created). For, in all such theories, there is a plausible explanation for Christ's succesful expiation: "He reaches ALL worlds, even if he only died in THIS one". But how does LUCIFER, or EVIL reach each world as to possibilitate the actual TEST and Salvation of the Gospel? For where there was no reach of evil, and no sin, no REDEEMER was EVER needed...

a.4. ANother fundamental question:

If this is so, or if nothing of this is so, another preocupation arises, also conflicting with possible scriptural answeres:

If evil is necessary for a world to experience(in order to be Saved), then, how was it, that BEFORE taking 'votes' into account in such Great Council, Elohim pretended testing us, if no such Lucifer had as yet become the embodiment of such possibility? It is not enough that 'Elohim knew', for it would make an acceptance out of Elohim's procedence with the whole thing knowing in advance what he knew. It would place Lucifer as an Accomplice, a Contributor(but lawfully one) to the plan of salvation, and not a 'needed' but 'not asked to' contributor, as nowadays is taken to be. The very same situation as that of Judas; but profoundly worse and more difficult, for Explaining Lucifer's role in Elohim's all knowing plans, is to actually give ultimate sense to all His thoughts are, as they pertain the history of the(or this, or all) world(s).

So there go some obstacles, and some past considerations (incomplete, of course) of many people regarding this.

More could be said, and even most profoundly paradoxical, but we would have all to hold this conversation IN the Temple; for surely there are that most interesting and evident things come to fore.

[Webster]

I side with the idea that Adam and Eve's bodies in the Garden did not have the ability to procreate. I heard long ago (but have no quotes) that our mortal bodies have the ability to precreate mortal children, and that God's resurrected, exalted, celestial body can procreate spirit children.

Those who do not attain the highest heaven in the celestial kingdom cannot procreate, neither can they of lower kingdoms. As the scripture says, there are bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial. The ability to procreate would be one of the differences between these different type of bodies. (Can you imagine the population explosion in the telestial kingdom with all the adulterers running rampant?)

It could even be argued that resurrected, exalted, celestial beings can sire a mortal (well at least an only begotten one), or that they can create spiritual bodies (physical, immortal bodies that are not perfected as are resurrected bodies).

In summary, I don't think Adam and Eve's bodies were able to produce offspring while in the Garden.

Lehi seems to say that since there was no death in Eden, there could be no life, and all things would have remained in the state in which they were created forever (2 Nephi 2:22-23). Also Adam fell that men might be (2 Nephi 2:25). I take that to mean that the fall made it possible for men (Adam and Eve's descendents) to exist, something not possible before the fall.

Eve also acknowledges after the fall that they could not have had seed until after their transgression (Moses 5:11).

[deseretgov]

Ok, so before we came to earth Heavenly Fathers Plan was put forward and we all agreed it. Then there had to be a decision of who would be our Saviour and Lucifer, The Son of the Morning put his thoughts forward and it was decided that it would be a bad idea, so he threw a fit and was kicked out and took a third of the host with him. Fine, I get that but.....

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

In my opinion This same situation is applicable to all worlds in this universe. The Council in Heaven wasn't made up of only God's children that came to this Earth. It was made up off all of God's children regardless of which world they would eventually go to in the universe.

So does that then mean, it this isnt' the case. That we do need a Saviour but that this world has a Satin but not all worlds? Or in a different way.

Jesus CHrist is the Saviour of all worlds in this universe. Satan it the temptor of all worlds in the universe.

And just as Eve was made from Adam's rib, if they had stayed in the Garden of Eden longer would they have had children in the same manner as Eve was created. I understand that Heavenly Fathers Plan had to be started but perhaps the coming out of the Garden of Eden (in other worlds) would be in a different manner?

No. I beleieve the rib thing is metaphorical. Although I'm not sure what the symbolism is supposed to represent. Perhaps it is the remnant of an ancient form of symbolism that was lost ages ago.

But Adam and Ev could not have had children. Their bodies were incapable of reproducing. It was part of God's plan that Adam and Eve become mortal and leave the Garden. But to force mortality on Adam and Eve would have made God an unjust God. So it had to be something they chose.

Ok, its 4.30am here and I've just got baby to bed so I'm off to bed too for hopefully 2 hours sleep or more before I have to get up. Please if you can help me on this as I've been studying Moses and Exodus and have left myself with lots of questions and I'm only getting sketchy answers from my Husband and other Church Members.

Thanks in advance,

Tootsie

[Maxel]

Ok, so before we came to earth Heavenly Fathers Plan was put forward and we all agreed it. Then there had to be a decision of who would be our Saviour and Lucifer, The Son of the Morning put his thoughts forward and it was decided that it would be a bad idea, so he threw a fit and was kicked out and took a third of the host with him. Fine, I get that but.....

Does that mean that this scene is played over and over again in all the creations of all the worlds. That would mean that we aren't individuals. That we are exact replicas of another spirit in a different world.

So does that then mean, it this isnt' the case. That we do need a Saviour but that this world has a Satin but not all worlds? Or in a different way.

And just as Eve was made from Adam's rib, if they had stayed in the Garden of Eden longer would they have had children in the same manner as Eve was created. I understand that Heavenly Fathers Plan had to be started but perhaps the coming out of the Garden of Eden (in other worlds) would be in a different manner?

Ok, its 4.30am here and I've just got baby to bed so I'm off to bed too for hopefully 2 hours sleep or more before I have to get up. Please if you can help me on this as I've been studying Moses and Exodus and have left myself with lots of questions and I'm only getting sketchy answers from my Husband and other Church Members.

Thanks in advance,

Tootsie

You ask some pretty in depth questions. The truth is that much of what you ask is not direct subject to canonical scripture. You may glean hints of the truth from LDS authorities, logical processes, scripture, etc., but the only way to really know the answers to these questions while on this earth is to receive the information privately from the Holy Ghost. Once you receive that information, however, you would be under the strictest obligation to keep such treasures of knowledge hidden from the world. The truth of such matters are given to individuals for purpose of edification and instruction only, and to be shared with a select number of God's children as the Holy Ghost dictates.

One bit of advice on learning the answers: remember that much of scripture, especially the Old Testament, is heavily steeped in symbolism and metaphorical phrases. If you apply yourself to learning the symbols of the scriptures you'll come closer to understanding the answers you seek.

I know that's not helpful, but I've actually asked myself these questions before and I found that following the aforementioned advice helped me find the answers I believe to be correct. Personally, I'm hoping for some new scripture that touches on these subjects within my lifetime, so we can all be enlightened.

Having said all that, I recommend the perusal of what everyone else has said for your intellectual and spiritual stimulation.