Let's Remember Joseph Smith In December Too!

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by srm+Dec 22 2004, 09:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Dec 22 2004, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Strawberry Fields@Dec 21 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by -Outshined@Dec 21 2004, 11:34 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Dec 21 2004, 11:01 AM

Now, I could be wrong but Bro west sounds like a shill to me.

You could also be right; when someone posts once on a board and disappears, it's suspicious.

The word shill is new to me, what does it mean?

A shill is a person planted in an audience to 'support' the person working the crowd. he appears to just be one of the crowd. This is a frecuent accusation from the anti crowd. ergo, I think he was attempting to set us up. They go so far as to say that we really celebrate 'smithmas' not Christmas. It is a specious argument...but a common one.

Thanks srm.

Awhile back I asked where Bro. West had gone. I agree that it is suspicious but it appears that he threw a gutter ball as it wasn't very well received here.

[Outshined]

We've all seen it before on boards. Someone shows up, asks a "question" or makes a loaded comment to stir things up, then disappears...

[Matt]

Cal, when you were LDS, did they teach you (or do they teach today, for that matter) that all native americans were Lamanites? Not being LDS, I don't know what they teach about such things, and wonder what areas of teaching are different between our churches.

That's what they taught me, all those years ago. "Book of Mormon Stories..." was the Primary song on that theme.

And perhaps Brother West remembered that as a faithful Mormon he should not use websites that are not official LDS church websites? Or has that rule been withdrawn?

[srm]

Originally posted by Matt@Dec 25 2004, 07:38 PM

Cal, when you were LDS, did they teach you (or do they teach today, for that matter) that all native americans were Lamanites? Not being LDS, I don't know what they teach about such things, and wonder what areas of teaching are different between our churches.

That's what they taught me, all those years ago. "Book of Mormon Stories..." was the Primary song on that theme.

And perhaps Brother West remembered that as a faithful Mormon he should not use websites that are not official LDS church websites? Or has that rule been withdrawn?

More hyperbole Matt? Please show us where we are told not to use websites that are not official LDS.

Oh what part of the lyrics of Book of Mormon Stories says that all native americans were lamanites? Even more hyperbole...Sheesh

[john doe]

Originally posted by Matt@Dec 25 2004, 07:38 PM

Cal, when you were LDS, did they teach you (or do they teach today, for that matter) that all native americans were Lamanites? Not being LDS, I don't know what they teach about such things, and wonder what areas of teaching are different between our churches.

That's what they taught me, all those years ago. "Book of Mormon Stories..." was the Primary song on that theme.

And perhaps Brother West remembered that as a faithful Mormon he should not use websites that are not official LDS church websites? Or has that rule been withdrawn?

I guess you forgot the verse that starts "Lamanites met others...." . Who do you think they were referring to?

[Matt]

Hyperbole? Well, SRM, if that's your name for an official release from the Mormon Church, stick with it.

However, it DID result in my TBM Brother-In-Law pulling his ward website on the instruction of the Bishop.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Matt@Dec 26 2004, 09:43 AM

Hyperbole? Well, SRM, if that's your name for an official release from the Mormon Church, stick with it.

Here's the problem Matt,

In order for your argument (that the LDS Church has officially said that the Saints are not to use websites that are not official LDS websites it would require that your readers be utter morons. Since not all of us are utter morons we dismiss your false claim out of hand; but thanks for trying.

[speedomansam]

Originally posted by john doe+Dec 25 2004, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (john doe @ Dec 25 2004, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Dec 25 2004, 07:38 PM

Cal, when you were LDS, did they teach you (or do they teach today, for that matter) that all native americans were Lamanites? Not being LDS, I don't know what they teach about such things, and wonder what areas of teaching are different between our churches.

That's what they taught me, all those years ago. "Book of Mormon Stories..." was the Primary song on that theme.

And perhaps Brother West remembered that as a faithful Mormon he should not use websites that are not official LDS church websites? Or has that rule been withdrawn?

I guess you forgot the verse that starts "Lamanites met others...." . Who do you think they were referring to?

what verse is that?

[Matt]

Lamanites met others who were seeking liberty,

And the land soon welcomed all who wanted to be free.

Book of Mormon stories say that we must brothers be,

Giv'n the land if we live righteously.

That would be the white settlers, John Doe. (You will note that this is confirmed by the exhortation in the last two lines.)

[Matt]

In order for your argument (that the LDS Church has officially said that the Saints are not to use websites that are not official LDS websites it would require that your readers be utter morons

No, it required that they be uttter MorMons.

It was an official release. From the LDS Church. You know the one I mean? HQ in Utah.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Matt@Dec 27 2004, 07:16 PM

In order for your argument (that the LDS Church has officially said that the Saints are not to use websites that are not official LDS websites it would require that your readers be utter morons

No, it required that they be uttter MorMons.

It was an official release. From the LDS Church. You know the one I mean? HQ in Utah.

Uh yeah Matt, I am gonna have to call you on this one:

I charge you are making all that up. The Church has never released a statement, official or otherwise, that members are not to use websites that aren't official LDS site.

Note: I know what you are talking about, though it didn't say what you are claiming it said, so you won't be able to trick me.

[john doe]

Originally posted by Matt@Dec 27 2004, 08:13 PM

Lamanites met others who were seeking liberty,

And the land soon welcomed all who wanted to be free.

Book of Mormon stories say that we must brothers be,

Giv'n the land if we live righteously.

That would be the white settlers, John Doe. (You will note that this is confirmed by the exhortation in the last two lines.)

I'm sorry, but I think you may be reading between the lines, I don't see the line where it states that Lamanites met white folks. It says they met others, not necessarily white guys. And the BOM ends before the first recorded white man came to America, and since the song is about BOM stories, you may be reading too much into the lines of the song that are not there. Perhaps you are right on the intent, perhaps not, do you have any anecdotal evidence from the writer of the song to support your premise?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by john doe+Dec 27 2004, 09:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (john doe @ Dec 27 2004, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Matt@Dec 27 2004, 08:13 PM

Lamanites met others who were seeking liberty,

And the land soon welcomed all who wanted to be free.

Book of Mormon stories say that we must brothers be,

Giv'n the land if we live righteously.

That would be the white settlers, John Doe. (You will note that this is confirmed by the exhortation in the last two lines.)

I'm sorry, but I think you may be reading between the lines, I don't see the line where it states that Lamanites met white folks. It says they met others, not necessarily white guys. And the BOM ends before the first recorded white man came to America, and since the song is about BOM stories, you may be reading too much into the lines of the song that are not there. Perhaps you are right on the intent, perhaps not, do you have any anecdotal evidence from the writer of the song to support your premise?

I don't know the author of the song, but it seems to me that Matt's understanding of that verse is supported by the context. If the verse referred to Lamanites meeting other Book of Mormon peoples like the Nephites or Mulekites, the use of the word "meet" is odd, especially with respect to the Nephites, who the Lamanites knew all along. "Met" indicates that the Lamanites were running into the people "met" for the first time. I suppose the verse could refer to Lamanites "meeting" the Mulekites, which they probably did, although the Book of Mormon doesn't record such a meeting. But the Mulekites are kind of a footnote to the Book of Mormon, useful largely as way for apologists to explain the Greek names in the Book of Mormon. (The theory is that the Mulekite group sailed over in a Phoenician ship, and Phoenecian sailors had contacts with Greek civilization and therefore took Greek names like Timothy and Antipas along with them.)

Also, the "we" in the last line seems to indicate that we -- Anglo-American civilization -- are among the "all who wanted to be free" in the verse.

[john doe]

I'll agree that there is a lot of extrapolation in the verse, but it could mean a variety of things and could refer to many events. I don't think that most of the Spanish explorers were looking for liberty, though, so I would leave them out of the mix on this one. Perhaps it does refer to Mulekites as you suggest, or perhaps it refers to Pilgrims, but we just don't know what the author meant. Maybe the author realized that the numbers didn't work for the Lehites to have been the only ones who found the New World, so he/she decided that they MUST have met others who arrived by another means who were looking for a better life than what they had left. Isn't that why most people migrate? The answer is unknown at this time, so it could mean many different things.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by john doe@Dec 28 2004, 06:01 PM

I'll agree that there is a lot of extrapolation in the verse, but it could mean a variety of things and could refer to many events. I don't think that most of the Spanish explorers were looking for liberty, though, so I would leave them out of the mix on this one. Perhaps it does refer to Mulekites as you suggest, or perhaps it refers to Pilgrims, but we just don't know what the author meant. Maybe the author realized that the numbers didn't work for the Lehites to have been the only ones who found the New World, so he/she decided that they MUST have met others who arrived by another means who were looking for a better life than what they had left. Isn't that why most people migrate? The answer is unknown at this time, so it could mean many different things.

Well, it seems to me that it's only recently that Mormons have started to re-think the idea that the Lamanites are the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians, as stated in the Book of Mormon's Introduction. That "Book of Mormon Stories" song is at least a quarter-century old, since I sang it in Primary. When did John Sorenson's book (with the theory of a limited Lehite footprint) come out?

I just don't see how the song could make any sense if it referred to Lamanites meeting a larger Asian-derived American Indian population, who by all appearances weren't "seeking liberty" when they came to America via the Bering Strait. "Seeking woolly mammoths" is more like it. But that doesn't rhyme very well.