Contradictions between The BoM and the Bible?

[Dymmesdale]

The topic of contradiction between the Book of Mormon and the Bible came up in aother thread, and I would like to hear address it here, so that it can be discussed better, without distraction.

First,

Moroni 8:8 "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Second,

2 Nephi 2:22-25 " 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This occurs BEFORE his command not to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2:17).

Thirdly,

Helaman 14:27, speaking of the time when Christ would be crucified: "And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days."

1 Nephi19:10 "10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel."

Matthew 27:45 "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. "

And finally (for now),

2 Nephi 5:10 "And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the law of Moses. "

however,

Deuteronomy 16:5-6 " 5Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:

6But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. "

God chose Jerusalem as his the place where his name should dwell. 1 kings 11:36 "And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."

Please understand that I am not trying to cause trouble, I only want to understand how these discrepancies have been reconciled.

[Wingnut]

I'm not sure what the problem is in the first example. David is speaking in Psalm 51, not Christ.

[applepansy]

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[Dymmesdale]

I'm not sure what the problem is in the first example. David is speaking in Psalm 51, not Christ.

In Moroni it seems to indicate that we are not touched by sin until we actually commit some discrete sin, but the psalm seems to say that we are sinful from birth.

[Wingnut]

but the psalm seems to say that we are sinful from birth.

Rather, the Psalm indicates that the mother committed a sin. It says nothing about the person speaking the line.

[bytor2112]

In Moroni it seems to indicate that we are not touched by sin until we actually commit some discrete sin, but the psalm seems to say that we are sinful from birth.

The scriptures you are referring to are addressing infant baptism. We believe that children are not accountable until they are 8 years old and do not need baptism.

[Dymmesdale]

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

[Dymmesdale]

Romans 5:12-14 "12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

[Wingnut]

Well, you can find pretty much any contradiction you want (even within the Bible itself or within the Book of Mormon itself) if all you're going to do is pull verses out of context.

[Dymmesdale]

Well, you can find pretty much any contradiction you want (even within the Bible itself or within the Book of Mormon itself) if all you're going to do is pull verses out of context.

To put Psalm 58 in context, David is accusing the rulers of judging unjustly, and later asserts that only God can truly judge justly.

As for Romans, Paul tells how Christ died for us while we were still sinners, and did not die for us because we were righteous. Therefore, even though we are all sinful because of the sin of Adam, and sin is increased, grace is increased all the more.

[bytor2112]

Second,

2 Nephi 2:22-25 " 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This occurs BEFORE his command not to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2:17).

Not a contradiction.....the Book of Mormon gives further light and understanding to the Gospel plan of salvation. Clearly, God gave Adam and Eve a commandment that they didn't know how to carry out. Their transgression...their fall occurred so that God's plan for mankind could continue. remember that the New Testament speaks of" the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," so this was clearly God's plan from the beginning. The creation, the fall and the atonement are all part of Heavenly Father's plan. Each play a critical role in the salvation of mankind. Elder Bruce McConkie, a late Apostle , made the point much more eloquently:

"In Eden we will see all things created in a paradisiacal state—without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences.

We will come to know that such a creation, now unknown to man, was the only way to provide for the Fall.

We will then see Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman, step down from their state of immortal and paradisiacal glory to become the first mortal flesh on earth.

Mortality, including as it does procreation and death, will enter the world. And because of transgression a probationary estate of trial and testing will begin.

Then in Gethsemane we will see the Son of God ransom man from the temporal and spiritual death that came to us because of the Fall.

And finally, before an empty tomb, we will come to know that Christ our Lord has burst the bands of death and stands forever triumphant over the grave.

Thus, Creation is father to the Fall; and by the Fall came mortality and death; and by Christ came immortality and eternal life.

If there had been no fall of Adam, by which cometh death, there could have been no atonement of Christ, by which cometh life."

[bytor2112]

Thirdly,

Helaman 14:27, speaking of the time when Christ would be crucified: "And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days."

1 Nephi19:10 "10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel."

Matthew 27:45 "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. "

Are you suggesting that JS wasn't familiar with the Matthew account?

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

9 And the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned

10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the a whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were a found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of a three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was c darkness upon the face of the land.

20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;

21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;

22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.

23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

25 And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible.

[Dymmesdale]

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

God, having infinite knowledge, knew that they would disobey him and eat of the fruit, but that does not change that he does not desire that any man should sin.

[Dymmesdale]

Are you suggesting that JS wasn't familiar with the Matthew account?

6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.

8 And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.

9 And the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned

10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

14 And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the a whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were a found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of a three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was c darkness upon the face of the land.

20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;

21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;

22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.

23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.

24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla.

25 And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible.

So the tempests and earthquakes and hullabaloo lasted for three hours, and the darkness lasted for three days...the Bible still says that the darkness lasted about three hours.

[bytor2112]

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

God, having infinite knowledge, knew that they would disobey him and eat of the fruit, but that does not change that he does not desire that any man should sin.

No disagreement........either way Adam and Eve would have disobeyed God. If they ate of the fruit or if they did not be fruitful and multiply.

From Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

[bytor2112]

So the tempests and earthquakes and hullabaloo lasted for three hours, and the darkness lasted for three days...the Bible still says that the darkness lasted about three hours.

.....lasted for three hours in that part of the world, the Book of Mormon account is the record of the events that occurred in another part of the world.

[Dymmesdale]

No disagreement........either way Adam and Eve would have disobeyed God. If they ate of the fruit or if they did not be fruitful and multiply.

From Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

But where in the Bible is the evidence that they could not have been fruitful and multiplied even if they had never sinned?

[bytor2112]

Further light and knowledge to excellent questions..... as you know we have a greater understanding of these questions and the plan of salvation as a result of the restoration of the gospel and because of latter day prophets. If indeed the bible was the only scriptural record we needed, there would be no need for the Book of Mormon, but we know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever and his words and works never cease......

2 Nephi, Ch. 2

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Edited February 12, 2009 by bytor2112

[Dymmesdale]

.....lasted for three hours in that part of the world, the Book of Mormon account is the record of the events that occurred in another part of the world.

If the darkness was given as a sign to the inhabitants of the isles across the sea, and to those of the house of Israel, then why would the length of darkness differ in different parts of the world?

[bytor2112]

But where in the Bible is the evidence that they could not have been fruitful and multiplied even if they had never sinned?

First we believe that Adam and Eve transgressed and that sin entered the world as a result. In other words, they were in a state of innocence until the partook of the fruit and then their eyes were opened and they new the were naked. I am guessing that prior that they had not considered they were naked or thought about sex any more than a toddler is concerned about running about as naked as a jay bird.....

From Genesis

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Edited February 12, 2009 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

But where in the Bible is the evidence that they could not have been fruitful and multiplied even if they had never sinned?

We don't look to the Bible for proof positive of every point of our doctrine.

You opened this thread with the stated purpose of

. . . not trying to cause trouble, I only want to understand how these discrepancies have been reconciled.

I would respectfully suggest that you seem to be straying from that objective. We're Mormons. We believe in continuing revelation. Telling us to reconcile our doctrine without using extrabiblical sources is like telling a bird to reproduce without laying eggs.

[bytor2112]

If the darkness was given as a sign to the inhabitants of the isles across the sea, and to those of the house of Israel, then why would the length of darkness differ in different parts of the world?

If you read the account in Third Nephi, there were volcanic eruptions, whole cities disappearing and the fallout from volcanic ash may have been the cause of the extended period of darkness. I really don't know.....but why does that concern you? The whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to serve as another witness of Jesus Christ or as the scripture states:

2 Nephi 29:

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

[Dymmesdale]

First we believe that Adam and Eve transgressed and that sin entered the world as a result. In other words, they were in a state of innocence until the partook of the fruit and then their eyes were opened and they new the were naked. I am guessing that prior that they had not considered they were naked or thought about sex any more than a toddler is concerned about running about as naked as a jay bird.....

From Genesis

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

I had always thought that they clothed themselves because they were guilty and ashamed of their disobedience, and were trying to hide from God. But your explanation is fair and square, thanks.

So if they were unable to procreate without first sinning, then God gave them the command to multiply, knowing full well that in order to obey the first command (multiply), they would have to break the second (don't eat the fruit). Am I right?

[Dymmesdale]

If you read the account in Third Nephi, there were volcanic eruptions, whole cities disappearing and the fallout from volcanic ash may have been the cause of the extended period of darkness. I really don't know.....but why does that concern you? The whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to serve as another witness of Jesus Christ or as the scripture states:

2 Nephi 29:

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

It concerns me because, if the Book of Mormon is true, and the Bible is true, then they will agree with each other. If a+b=c, and a+x=c, then a=x. If they do not agree, then one of them must be incorrect.

[bytor2112]

I had always thought that they clothed themselves because they were guilty and ashamed of their disobedience, and were trying to hide from God. But your explanation is fair and square, thanks.

So if they were unable to procreate without first sinning, then God gave them the command to multiply, knowing full well that in order to obey the first command (multiply), they would have to break the second (don't eat the fruit). Am I right?

Yeah....one way or the other the fall had to occur. A bit more from Elder McConkie:

The fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world, and the atonement of Christ ransomed men from these two deaths by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This makes the fall as essential a part of the plan of salvation as the very atonement itself.

There are, in fact, five things that came into being and continue to exist because of the fall. None of these things would have existed if there had been no fall, and all of them are essential parts of the divine plan of salvation. They are:

1. Temporal death. This is the natural death; it occurs when body and spirit separate; it results in corruption and decay. Because of the atonement of Christ all men will be raised from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality, thence to live everlastingly in a resurrected state.

2. Spiritual death. This is death as pertaining to the things of the Spirit. It is death

as pertaining to things of righteousness. It is to be cast out of the presence of the Lord. It is a way of life which is in opposition to that of the Father of us all. Because of the atonement, because the Lord Jesus bore our sins on conditions of repentance, we have power to gain eternal life, which is spiritual life, which is a life of righteousness, which is life in the presence of our God.

3. Mortality. Mortal life comes because of the fall. If there had been no fall, there would be no mortal life of any sort on earth. Mortal life is life where there is death. Death must enter the world to bring mortality into being.

4. Procreation. Before the fall there was no procreation. I repeat, for thus saith the Holy Word, before the fall there was no procreation. Adam and Eve, in their Edenic state, could not have children, nor, as we shall see, could any form of life when first placed on the newly created paradisiacal earth.

5. A probationary estate. We are here to be tried and tested, to see if we will believe the truths of salvation and keep the commandments while we walk by faith. After the fall men became carnal, sensual, and devilish by nature, and the plan of salvation calls upon them to put off these worldly snares and to put on Christ.