Word Of Wisdom

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon,"

Snow~

When did THIS happen?

I bet it was just 3 months ago. That is when his posts became dispassionate and started to have that devil-may-care attitude.

It was like something died inside him. But I still think he is funny ...when he wants to be.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 5 2004, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -lindy9556@Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon,"

Snow~

When did THIS happen?

I bet it was just 3 months ago. That is when his posts became dispassionate and started to have that devil-may-care attitude.

It was like something died inside him. But I still think he is funny ...when he wants to be.

WooHoo! There's hope yet for Snow!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Feb 5 2004, 09:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Feb 5 2004, 09:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 5 2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by -lindy9556@Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon,"

Snow~

When did THIS happen?

I bet it was just 3 months ago. That is when his posts became dispassionate and started to have that devil-may-care attitude.

It was like something died inside him. But I still think he is funny ...when he wants to be.

WooHoo! There's hope yet for Snow!

Yeah...he can become a card carrying member of the walking dead.

[Snow]

Oh, yeah, Lindy just PM'd me to ask me about that. I can't even see where I wrote that, but I am sure that it was just an odd throw-in line to see who was paying attention.

I am more active than at any time since my mission (to save the world). I love the gospel and I love the Church (though I think the members are a bunch of flipp'n weirdos). Several years ago I went though spiritual re-birth of sorts and now have more interest in and passion for all things religious (and especially LDS) than I ever though possible.

Antishock's theory that I would follow his path to apostasy has turned out to be a bust. It is funny or odd or noteworthy that two people can get exposed to the same stimuli and experience two completely different outcomes. He may be smarter than I am but I have more hair and once dated my cousin who was totally hot - so I got that going for me, you know.

Anyway, beyond the intellectual fascination I have with religion and specifically Mormon History and how it gives us a unique and unmatched view into how religions with supernatural beliefs are formed, I also find the whole gospel/church experience to be rich and textured and nuanced and complex and fullfilling and all things bright and beautiful, wise and wonderful.

Cheers.

[Guest antishock82003]

I have to admit that I thought Snow would go the way of the DoDo bird. It could just be that he has a spiritual void to fill and that Mormonism is the thing that does it for him. I will say this; he doesn't deny that there has been historical flamfloozles. That's good. The only thing that bothers me, really, about Snow is his deliberate misrepresentation (I like to use the obfuscation because it so perfectly fits what he does) of Church tidbits. For example:

Snow said, in a nutshell, that the witnesses witnessed the “Golden” plates. Now. We all know the deal with that little shimdiggity. YET. Snow faithfully promotes the insinuation that the witnessing done by the witnesses was literal, not spiritual. And yes, I'm being deliberately non-specific because I'm too tired and bored to get sucked into syntaxlandia and play word game lotto with our resident apologist. But I'm sure the point was understood by at least two of the five Mormons that actually frequent this board. I exclude Peace from the aforewritten sentence because she probably lost interest about three sentences into this inane bit of posting.... and anyways the most she ever really has to offer is a 'nuh-uh, you're stupid' kind of rationale that instantly made me regret ever reading one of her posts in the first place. You know the feeling? Yeah, it's the same one you get when you accidentally find yourself perusing "TR2's" posts and then you suddenly snap out of it like Chuck Norris emerging from the river to shoot up a truckload of evil communists who are unjustly imprisoning the American soldiers that just got done torching the Quai Dong rice patty village who, as we all know, are harboring insurgents...and the only good way to flush out a rat is with smoke and fire...lots and lots of fire. What the heck was I talking about again? Oh. Yeah.

I find it a little amusing that Snow is proud of his ability to maintain his faith in Mormonism...not so much because he can maintain his faith in Mormonism, but because he ascribes such a huge value to Mormonism which in turn merits the faith and devotion he so willingly cedes over to the Church. Of course he'll not like that last little sentence in the least, indignation is the word that comes to mind, and will probably lash out like many repressed "nice" people do when they just...can't...take it...any....MORE!! Anyhoo, Mormonism seems to me a funny little thing that I just can't leave alone...which makes me just like Snow...just in a different way.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jimmy@Feb 4 2004, 07:25 PM

When I was an "active" Mormon, it bothered me that a church which was allegedly run by God could do so many dumb things. (Polygamy, denial of the PH to blacks, homophobia, subjugation of women, etc.) Once I realized that it is completely a human organization, founded by humans and run by humans, with no "divine inspiration", then it fell into place for me.  The cognitive dissonance disappeared, along with any shred of belief I had in "The Church."

I think my use of the term "house of cards" is very apt. 

Of course, I believe that it is the same for every other religion. They are ALL man-made attempts to explain the reason for our existence.

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon," it bothers me that kids like you that allegedly think they know what they are talking about could say so many dumb things. Once I realized that their opinions, even though stated as fact, were worth no more that the non-existenct paper they were written on, it all fell into place. When that happened, I was free to obseve that phrases like "cognitive dissonance" sound important but really mean nothing other than indicate that you kids all hang out on the same message board.

Of course, your opinion is simply a man-made attempt to explain something you don't get and heaven forbid that your house of semi-rational cards comes tumbling down, but hey, everybody's got to believe something.

Snow- If you don't mind my asking, what led you to become a "non-active mormon"? I hope I'm not being too intrusive.

[Guest Starsky]

He may be smarter than I am but I have more hair and once dated my cousin who was totally hot - so I got that going for me, you know.

Well I am more intelligent than both of you and I married my cousin.

[Snow]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 5 2004, 09:13 PM

Snow said, in a nutshell, that the witnesses witnessed the “Golden” plates. Now. We all know the deal with that little shimdiggity. YET. Snow faithfully promotes the insinuation that the witnessing done by the witnesses was

Hold on there a minute. I readily admit to snowfuscation in arguments that are nothing but exercise in clever word play - like ones with bat, especially the fake ex-navy general, you, etc, but I don't ever recall deliberately leading anyone astray on material fact in a straight up debate. In this case I think you are talking about golden plates in the post I made about the translation process. Specificially I said that Martin Harris estimated their weight to be about 50 lbs - after having lifting them - AND, right there I put in the clause that he had lifted them while they were in their box. My direct point was that he didn't lift the plates and plates alone or even see the plates on that occasion in as much as they were IN THE BOX. I think you then asked a clarying question and I quickly responded that at least on that occasion, he didn't see them, to my knowledge.

Now you have been confused and coming from your perspective vis a vis my posting style, that's not so hard to see why, but my intent was never to mislead anyone and in fact I think I actually went the extra bit to make it clear that Harris's experience was with a box and what he believed to be in it, That's not to say that I have never let someone draw incorrect conclusions from ambiguity in my posts but I think we both agree that many debates aren't honest debates but exercises in sleight of hand tricks.

I find it a little amusing that Snow is proud of his ability to maintain his faith in Mormonism...not so much because he can maintain his faith in Mormonism, but because he ascribes such a huge value to Mormonism which in turn merits the faith and devotion he so willingly cedes over to the Church.  Of course he'll not like that last little sentence in the least...

I readily admit that I am a "homer" when it comes to the Church, just like I was a homer with my HS and college sport's teams and like I am about Utah in general, or my kids, or Mac computers. And, like a parent, I am sometimes overly critical of my kids and I am also over critical (sometimes) of the Church - more than it warrants. Still, I do think that it is a marvelous institutions, one that is made all the more fascinating for its human flaws.

In a way I suppose I am a bit proud of my faith, but maybe even more I take great joy in it and my joy spills out onto the page, with the ink of my obnoxious personality.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 5 2004, 09:35 PM

Snow- If you don't mind my asking, what led you to become a "non-active mormon"? I hope I'm not being too intrusive.

Sorry Cal,

It was just a play on words offset against Jimmy's post. I am active - look a little higher up in the thread for my post on the subject. I guess that the upside is that at least some of you are reading for content - thanks.

[Snow]

Oh, but AS,

As far as whether or not anyone besides JS ever physically saw and or held the plates, I have not read up on it but I suspect that the anti's argument is the weaker or the two, probably significantly so.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 6 2004, 01:39 AM

Oh, but AS,

As far as whether or not anyone besides JS ever physically saw and or held the plates, I have not read up on it but I suspect that the anti's argument is the weaker or the two, probably significantly so.

I think that you would find that you are mistaken, especially if you are expecting to find any disinterested third parties that were allowed to examine the plates.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bat+Feb 6 2004, 06:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Feb 6 2004, 06:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 6 2004, 01:39 AM

Oh, but AS,

As far as whether or not anyone besides JS ever physically saw and or held the plates, I have not read up on it but I suspect that the anti's argument is the weaker or the two, probably significantly so.

I think that you would find that you are mistaken, especially if you are expecting to find any disinterested third parties that were allowed to examine the plates.

Why would anyone use a disinterested 3rd party? Every study or experiment I have ever seen, heard of, or done myself, always envolved only those interested in it.

Even witnesses at a trial are those 'interested' in getting the right outcome...

Besides....the Lord chose who would get this previledge...not JS.

[Snow]

Originally posted by bat@Feb 6 2004, 06:57 AM

I think that you would find that you are mistaken, especially if you are expecting to find any disinterested third parties that were allowed to examine the plates.

That's not the argument - that disinterested 3rd party parties saw the plates.

The issue is - of those that saw them and felt them - was the seeing and feeling spiritual or physical. I dunno as I have never examined it but am willing to wager that the critics have constructed a faulty argument. (No mention is being made about the many faulty argument the apologist have undoubtedly made).

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 5 2004, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 5 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Feb 5 2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 5 2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by -lindy9556@Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon,"

Snow~

When did THIS happen?

I bet it was just 3 months ago. That is when his posts became dispassionate and started to have that devil-may-care attitude.

It was like something died inside him. But I still think he is funny ...when he wants to be.

WooHoo! There's hope yet for Snow!

Yeah...he can become a card carrying member of the walking dead.

Um, that would be YOU, not me. I'm quite alive and living well and happily, thanks.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Feb 6 2004, 08:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Feb 6 2004, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 5 2004, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by -bizabra@Feb 5 2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 5 2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by -lindy9556@Feb 5 2004, 12:30 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 4 2004, 09:18 PM

Now that I am an "non-active Mormon,"

Snow~

When did THIS happen?

I bet it was just 3 months ago. That is when his posts became dispassionate and started to have that devil-may-care attitude.

It was like something died inside him. But I still think he is funny ...when he wants to be.

WooHoo! There's hope yet for Snow!

Yeah...he can become a card carrying member of the walking dead.

Um, that would be YOU, not me. I'm quite alive and living well and happily, thanks.

That's what you think.

[Guest bizabra]

I could care less what YOU think of me and my life (poor deluded soul that you are) since YOU are the one who believes in the fantasy world of god and angels and visitations. Might as well believe in pixies and fairy dust or invisible pink unicorns in your attic! LOL!

Thanks, but I'll take reality over Joe Smiths "visions" any day. . . . . . . . B)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra@Feb 7 2004, 11:04 AM

I could care less what YOU think of me and my life (poor deluded soul that you are) since YOU are the one who believes in the fantasy world of god and angels and visitations. Might as well believe in pixies and fairy dust or invisible pink unicorns in your attic! LOL!

Thanks, but I'll take reality over Joe Smiths "visions" any day. . . . . . . . B)

You need to start a forum somewhere of your own Biz. You seem to hate it here.

[srm]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

Snow--it is true that the WoW doesn't really make LDS very unique. The 7th Day Adventists have similar codes, and many conservative protestants, and even muslims follow similar codes of health.

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

I don't know that I agree but, some would say that it is more for the 20th & 21st century than for the 19th.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

So, why is it a temple recommend question nowadays? Since when did it become a Word of Commandment?

[srm]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

Actually it doesn't say advice...it says, 'not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm+Feb 12 2004, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Feb 12 2004, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

Actually it doesn't say advice...it says, 'not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom.

This citation of authority has always bothered me. Is it like by saying this that people in the church WOULD'T think they had to obey it when the word "revelation" was in there. Since when did any rational person think "Oh, it's just revelation, I can ignore it"? IF you actually believed it was revelation from GOD, why would anyone think to take it as just a SUGGESTION? What kind of God gives "suggestions"? "Oh, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. This is just My opinion" What, like God's opinion is JUST AN OPINION? Mormonism is REALLY WEIRD!!!!!

(Of course, I don't think it came from God at all. My God would have told the Saints to boil their water, and drink wine instead of the polluted water. But that is just MY God....what does HE know?)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 12 2004, 03:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 12 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

So, why is it a temple recommend question nowadays? Since when did it become a Word of Commandment?

Brigham Young instigated it several years after the Saints were established here, along with tithing. Before that...neither were requirements to go to the temple. At least ....well I'm not sure about the WofW....I know the tithing was put as a requirement during BYs day.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 12 2004, 10:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 12 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 12 2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 12 2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 12 2004, 12:43 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 4 2004, 06:07 PM

As to whether it is a code of health revealed from God, I still have a hard time understanding why he would tell the Saints not to drink hot drinks, when doing so, at least in the early days, would have saved more lives than it cost.

This is very true. I had never really thought about that before, but drinking coffee, tea, whiskey, or other sanitary drinks probably would have spared many lives. I'm not sure how literally they lived the word of wisdom between Nauvoo and Utah though. It's very possible they did drink these things for survival's sake.

Yes...back then it was only a 'word of advice', not a commandment.

So, why is it a temple recommend question nowadays? Since when did it become a Word of Commandment?

Brigham Young instigated it several years after the Saints were established here, along with tithing. Before that...neither were requirements to go to the temple. At least ....well I'm not sure about the WofW....I know the tithing was put as a requirement during BYs day.

Too bad mormons can't tell the difference between when God is commanding something and when HE is not.