Plural Marriages Failure

[Maureen]

Janice said:

Ok, it's possible that I have this memory kicking around in my head that is not a real memory, but it seems that I recall having someone read a letter from the FP.... this would have been sometime around 1988/89... that said this doctrine had been changed, and that in the event a widow was sealed to her first husband, she could again marry in the temple for time AND eternity with her second husband as well.

I believe how it works is that, if a widow is sealed to her first husband and she remarries; after she dies and after the death of any other men she may have married for time; she can be sealed by proxy to one or all the men she had been married to. I believe she makes the choice of who she spends eternity with in the after life. The question is, which relatives would do this proxy work?

[interalia]

I often see the reason for polygamy justified by the idea that there are/will be more righteous women than men and they all need a husband.

I wonder if we'd be okay with polyandry if there were more righteous men than women.

Where does one find these numbers anyhow to say there are more righteous women than men? It has often baffled me.

[Maxel]

Where does one find these numbers anyhow to say there are more righteous women than men? It has often baffled me.

I think there the number of righteous women currently in the Church are higher than the number of righteous men. Personally, I don't have hard numbers (or facts) on which I base that off of; mostly inferences (for example, the stark difference between the gender-specific messages to the Young Single Adults). To my knowledge, others that hold that view base it on similar inferences. Edited May 12, 2009 by Maxel

[interalia]

I think there the number of righteous women currently in the Church are higher than the number of righteous men. Personally, I don't have hard numbers (or facts) on which I base that off of; mostly inferences (for example, the stark difference between the gender-specific messages to the Young Single Adults).

Could those differing messages just reflect LDS cultural tendencies to put women on pedestals? I'd still like to see where anyone has evidence that there are more righteous women than men. I mean, how do we even judge such a thing? Temple worthiness? Membership records? Did a GA say so?

[Pintail]

I think there the number of righteous women currently in the Church are higher than the number of righteous men. Personally, I don't have hard numbers (or facts) on which I base that off of; mostly inferences (for example, the stark difference between the gender-specific messages to the Young Single Adults). To my knowledge, others that hold that view base it on similar inferences.

From Apostle John Widtsoe-

"Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many non-members, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-Day Saints. The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence.

On the contrary, there seem always to have been more males than females in the Church....The United States Census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church."

"Another conjecture is that the people were few in numbers and that the church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women."

("Evidences and Reconciliations," p. 391.)

[Maxel]

Could those differing messages just reflect LDS cultural tendencies to put women on pedestals?

Possibly. What I am referring to is the instruction itself (for example, the messages given to women are often along the lines of 'stay faithful; everything will be fine if you just hold to the iron rod!'; those given to men are often 'Men, you're not doing enough. Time to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, put away childish things, and become men of God'.)

I'd still like to see where anyone has evidence that there are more righteous women than men. I mean, how do we even judge such a thing? Temple worthiness? Membership records? Did a GA say so?

None of those measuring tools- except for a GA saying something about the matter, perhaps- would do much good, IMO. Like I said, the assumption is based off of inferences; I have never read hard data supporting (or disproving) the theory.

I readily admit, however, to having a father who slacked on his duties, being raised by a righteous woman and a caring sister, and knowing many righteous women but few righteous men growing up. The reason for my belief may very well be the "cultural tendenc[y] to put women on pedestals" (not just among the LDS, but in my family as well).

If more righteous women exist than righteous men in general among all the Children of God, than it probably is a result of differences between the very basic spiritual makeup of the two different categories of people (male and female).

From Apostle John Widtsoe-

"Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many non-members, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-Day Saints. The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence.

On the contrary, there seem always to have been more males than females in the Church....The United States Census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church."

"Another conjecture is that the people were few in numbers and that the church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women."

("Evidences and Reconciliations," p. 391.)

Thanks for the quote, I was unaware of those facts (not a big surprise). That being said, the question at hand is the general proportion of righteous women to men; not just the proportion of women to men in the Church.

[Pintail]

Thanks for the quote, I was unaware of those facts (not a big surprise). That being said, the question at hand is the general proportion of righteous women to men; not just the proportion of women to men in the Church.

No faith in your elders?

[interalia]

Possibly. What I am referring to is the instruction itself (for example, the messages given to women are often along the lines of 'stay faithful; everything will be fine if you just hold to the iron rod!'; those given to men are often 'Men, you're not doing enough. Time to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, put away childish things, and become men of God'.)

None of those measuring tools- except for a GA saying something about the matter, perhaps- would do much good, IMO. Like I said, the assumption is based off of inferences; I have never read hard data supporting (or disproving) the theory.

I couldn't agree more - they would not be good measures. Being honest with myself, I would really only accept a GA quote or personal revelation (to me of course).

[Maxel]

No faith in your elders?

Touche, lol. Edited May 12, 2009 by Maxel

[Maxel]

I couldn't agree more - they would not be good measures. Being honest with myself, I would really only accept a GA quote or personal revelation (to me of course).

Ditto. This is one area where my opinion is solely my opinion; I haven't received revelation either way. Until then... it makes interesting discussion.

[Just_A_Guy]

When you factor in the number of children that die in infancy (traditionally heavily skewed towards males, for some reason), and combine that with the classic LDS belief that kids who die before age 8 automatically go to the Celestial Kingdom; the whole "there will be more women in heaven" bit becomes even more dubious.