Oh Say, What is Truth

[MikeUpton]

I might be willing to agree that absolute, unchangeable, unconquerable, unbendable, universal truths do exist, and while I have and will continue to strive to get closer and closer to these truths via the methods you mentioned (prayer, study, Holy Ghost), I don't think I will ever claim to have obtained them or to fully understand them. As soon as I do, I fear I will have committed the ultimate form of pride.

my words were not meant to glorify myself or men in anyway, but to glorify the truth. man's belief of the truth does not mean that it is the truth. Man's understanding or possession of the truth does not imply he understands truth perfectly. i dont see how you came to that conclusion about what i was saying. i have no such idea that man's understanding of truth is at any time absolute, I would go so far as to say you do not have a true idea of what i am talking about.:) but i would not say that means i am better than you. man may know truth that another man not, but that does not make him better than the other man. Think of the whole reason we have teachers who have an imperfect idea of truth who teach students in a classroom setting: their position as teachers does not mean they are waxing great in pride.

Edited March 13, 2009 by MikeUpton

[Jim108]

The Truth is the Word, and the Word is with God and the Word is God. ...and the truth is not for us to edit or debate but rather to conform to. Jim

[MikeUpton]

The Truth is the Word, and the Word is with God and the Word is God. ...and the truth is not for us to edit or debate but rather to conform to. Jim

Correct, I would go further to say man can only give an imperfect representation of truth as he understands it, unless he speaks by the Holy Ghost. for even though different people read the same words, they come to different understandings. For me, I debate not whether the truth is true, but whether man understands what the truth is.

[Janice]

That is definitely the attitude of the Wikipedia generation: That everyone's opinion on every subject is of equal value.

The truth is that this simply is not the case; If a thousand voices spoken by a thousand people with no clue drown out the voice of the single informed individual, it doesn't make that individual any less correct.

That, sadly, is a lesson that the Prophets have learned time and time again. Truth is not subjective, Janice: A man doesn't know that his house is on fire is no less dead for having fallen asleep within in blissful ignorance. It will never be subjective, though our interpretations of it may be.

I'm not saying truth does not exist. I'm only saying that putting a definition on truth is not as easy as saying, "Let's see what the dictionary says." Scholars have been debating the definition of the word "Truth" from the beginning of time. I'm not ready to say that FunkyTown just solved the debate by opening a dictionary.

[Janice]

“Indeed, evil is not only erotic; it is erratic, since it must entice so many in such a multitude of ways. Thus, persuade a man possessed of one truth that he has all truth. Convince another that there is no truth whatsoever. Let another believe that all truths are of equal importance to man. Notice that the result is the same in all cases: the searching for truth stops. Allow one person to think that no matter what he does, it is not wrong. Tell another that he has done wrong, but it is not serious. Persuade another that he has erred so gravely that there is no hope for him. Again, the result is the same: the sinning continues. The devil is a liar and a cheat!” -Neal A. Maxwell

Good quote Connie. And it makes my point exactly. As soon as we assume that we have the truth, the search for the truth stops. This is why I said it makes me nervous to say that finding truth is a simple as listening to the Holy Ghost, and voila! If it was that easy, I would never have to listen to the Holy Ghost again for as long as I live, because I did that once.

It's like the "a Bible, a Bible" argument. "We already have a Bible! We don't need any more Bible!" The Bible is true, but it is not ALL of the truth. If you accept the Bible as ALL of the truth, then the search for MORE truth stops, and the Book of Mormon is rejected.

I can't see myself every saying, "I posses the truth" in any context, religion or other wise, because as soon as I say that, I'm done trying to find more truth. I'm willing to allow that in ALL things, I have more to learn.

Janice

[Janice]

For me, I debate not whether the truth is true, but whether man understands what the truth is.

Thanks for the clarification Mike. I think I understand you much better now. And I agree 100% with what you just said. Of course I agree that truth is out there. Jim rightly quoted John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." But as you say, Mike, ten men can read The Word and come away with ten different understandings of what The Word means, all ten of them claiming (and believing) the Holy Ghost told them they were right.

Is it possible that they are all right... that the Holy Ghost told each of them what they needed to hear and understand?

I guess my main point is this:

I agree that Ultimate Truth is decided and spoken by God. But where the line becomes fuzzy is when someone stands on a soap box and says, "I possess the truth! I am right and you are wrong!" As soon as someone says this, they are either A) a liar and a deceiver, B) terribly prideful, or C) a Prophet of God. I don't want to be A or B, and I am certainly not C.

Therefore, I don't think I will ever claim to have a grasp on what truth is. If for no other reason then because I don't ever want to stop searching for it.

Janice

[Justice]

You and I, and most people on this forum agree on this point. But, if you asked a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist or an atheist, truth to them would be very different.

Is there an example of Truth on which all humanity can agree?

Janice

This is exactly my point. It doesn't matter who believes what, truth is truth.

Paraphrasing Joseph Smith, because I don't have time to look it up (it was on my wall at work for 15 years)...

I will stand firm in truth even if I am the only person on the planet who believes it.

It doesn't matter who believes Jesus is the Christ. The truth is that He is. Those who say He is not are wrong. Being wrong does not change truth.

[HiJolly]

Interesting thread! This discussion on truth reminds me of the Buddhist (Zen, I think) saying "If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill Him!"

Bodhigirlsmiles (or whomever else), please jump in and correct me if you so desire----

We all grow up with people telling us what to believe. Rightly or wrongly, we have our mind filled with ideas about who God is, how God acts, how God wants us to act, what God can do, how God loves us/is angered by us, and so forth.

So we develop an idea of God that is basically the fruit of other people's opinions, knowledge, and even deceptions, in some few cases. Sure, we have the Light of Christ that can help us but really it is quite improbable that we really understand things as we should, after all this. Thus the scripture

D&C 76:94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

"Killing the Buddha" in the LDS or Christian context means that when we *think* we know what God (substitute an TRUTH here) is, we need to be willing to lay that aside as we begin to experience Him (TRUTH) for ourselves. Thus the Holy Ghost not only teaches us truth, but also takes a major role in first helping us lay aside misunderstandings or false beliefs so that we can then receive the truths that we were previously unwilling or unable to accept.

HiJolly

[Connie]

I rather like where this discussion has gone. Not that there are many truths but that there is one truth and we, each of us, possess different amounts or degrees of that truth. (Or at least that's what i'm getting out of it.) And we need to be on a constant search for truth. It reminds me of something Joseph Smith said, “It is not wisdom that we should have all knowledge at once presented before us; but that we should have a little at a time; then we can comprehend it.”

It also reminds me of D&C 93 where John the revelator talks of Christ:

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

[Justice]

I can't see myself every saying, "I posses the truth" in any context, religion or other wise, because as soon as I say that, I'm done trying to find more truth. I'm willing to allow that in ALL things, I have more to learn.

Janice

You know, it's interesting that it seems when we learn something, we discover many, many more things that we did not know. It's like opening a door only to discover 100 more doors through the one.