Feelings vs absolute proof

[JohnBirchSociety]

EXCELLENT post Pam. Thank you.

I would add to this somewhat. Anti-Mormons typically claim that they embrace "Biblical Christianity."

So how do "Biblical Christians" prove that the Bible is true, especially to the non-believers? They tell them to pray to God to know if it is real, that's how. And how will God answer them? Feelings.

Their entire thread of logic is completely hypocritical.

The LDS Antagonists I've dealt with for the past 25+ years have been a lot better prepared than just ridiculing "feelings".

And lately they have synthesized their argument to its' base point about the Book of Mormon.

It goes like this:

The Book of Mormon describes physical people, places and things in regards to the Mesoamerica era. Things like geography, peoples, culture, tools, warfare, etc. Those things are observable realities, not subject to "spiritual" confirmation or not. For instance, no matter how you "feel" about it, George Washington actually existed. Your feelings on the matter are of no importance to the determination of that reality. So, taking the physically demonstrable claims of the Book of Mormon and testing them against what we do physically, really know about Mesoamerica, we find that the claims of the Book of Mormon find no place in Mesoamerican history. In fact, no artifact or writing has ever been found to substantiate any specific and unique Book of Mormon claim about Mesoamerican history.

Now, this being said, I find that their biggest problem is that no evidence to the contrary has been found. There is a huge lack of evidence in a positive sense. It is true that no artifact or writing has ever been found to substantiate the unique and specific claims of the Book of Mormon. However, we can say the same about many of the foundational claims of the Bible, yet we both, LDS and LDS Antagonists believe in it.

So I think we need to grow up a bit in our viewing of the LDS Antagonist and realize that they do bring up valid questions. To be sure, there are just anti-mormon idiots who use falsehood, etc. But increasingly I've found them to be the ignorant minority, rather than the rule.

Hope this helps?

[JohnBirchSociety]

I don't understand other Christians who say that we shouldn't rely on our feelings as testimony.

This is a serious question for those Christians who believe that. How do you know that Jesus is your personal Savior? How do you know that the Bible is true? When you pray and receive answers, how do you know them to be answers?

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing on Christians...I truly don't understand if one can't rely on his/her feelings on the matter, then how does one have faith in something that can't be seen?

I know through faith and reason.

I have faith that Jesus is the Son of GOD.

Reason shows me that the Bible is the most historically accurate and substantiated writing in human history. It has proven to be utterly reliable in all respects, therefore, those items of a spiritual nature that it reports spring from verifiably real people and places.

Faith and reason.

I use the same for the Book of Mormon, with one difference at this point. As of yet, no artifact or writing from Mesoamerica substantiates any specific and unique claim in the Book of Mormon. That being said, the Book of Mormon contains such unique things that consistent with it being a translation of an ancient Hebriac text that I have reason to believe the physical nature of its' claims as well as the spiritual.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Great post Pam!

A common attack among LDS haters COUGH carm COUGH - is to scoff at our feelings of revelation.

Good stuff.

If your feelings contradict observable reality, I'd recommend you follow what is real, rather than feelings.

We are given brains for a reason. To think.

There should be a balance, faith doesn't trump reason, or visa versa, unless one component is 100% correct (irrefutable, rational, real).

[Dale]

I have no problem with relying on my feeling to a certain extent where i have tested them via logic and reason. Though i confess i can only satisfy myself to a limited extent that my belief in Book of Mormon historicity is true. Michael R. Ash has a wonderful recent book entitled Of Faith and Reason 80 Evidences Supporting The Prophet Joseph Smith that gives evidences that support my feelings.

I am not LDS but Community of Christ (formerly named Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). We have many members and church leaders who via less conservative Book of Mormon scholarship have felt maintaining the Book of Mormon historicity position was no longer possible. I myself via exposure to LDS scholarship on the same reputed Book of Mormon historicity problems see no need to abandon my belief in historicity.

[Newcomer4831]

I have certain problems with the idea of a "feeling" overriding proof. Example, a man on LSD thinks he can fly and dies in that pursuit. Saying that LSD is in the works is not enough to dispute this argument since we do see crazy people who aren't on drunks commit heinous or even suicide incidents.

[Dale]

You are right. In my mind one should exercise common sense in trusting feelings. I have beliefs that may, or may not be true. Certain beliefs of mine certainly pose no danger to me as a person. I certainly don't agree with Evangelical critics of Mormonism that they have proven i am under spiritual deception for believing the true church was restored in 1830 was restored or that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

I have been exposed to every Anti-Restoration argument and see no reason to feel my feelings about the basics of the Restored Gospel pose any damnation to outer darkness (final hell) danger for me. Now if any of my feelings pose any danger for me in the LDS view it would be because LDS feel my church erred after we split from the LDS in the 1840's. But i don't see any danger seen in rejecting the orthodoxy of traditional Christianity.

[Newcomer4831]

Certain beliefs of mine certainly pose no danger to me as a person.

can you elaborate? Also, the second half i don't quite understand either.

[JohnnyRudick]

can you elaborate? Also, the second half i don't quite understand either.

I "think" I understand:p

I believe he is saying that (please correct me if I am wrong on this Dale:)

The orthodox Christian Tradition is a safe harbor to tie up in.

Even if all else fails "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" will never fail.

I know there is a lot more to it but I think that is the main point.

Ya can't end up in OD if you Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time

Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet

peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,

while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we

shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to

God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we

shall be saved by his life.

Bro. Rudick

[captmoroniRM]

Here is something I wrote regarding Jeremiah 17. Those who reject the fact that the witness of the Holy Ghost in our hearts use Jer. 17:9 to try and prove us wrong. (From Spamlds.org)

**

One scripture that always comes up by the anti-mormon when discussing the topic at hand (praying for wisdom from God) is Jer. 17:9 which reads:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It sounds reasonable enough. Don't trust the heart, for it is wicked and who can know it? Let's put the verse in context with its counterparts.

5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Verse 5 says that any man who trusts in man, and make flesh his arm, and departs the ways of the Lord. It is a warning. Don't trust in the things of man. Simple. Straight forward. He who trusts in the arm of flesh and departs the Lord will be like a heath in the desert. Heath is an open tract of uncultivated land...or a wasteland. They are desolate lands lacking water or vegetation:

Yet blessed is he that trusts in the Lord. Note, that it doesn't say the word of the Lord, but the Lord, echoing Solomon's proverb "Trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not to thy own understanding."

He that trusts in the Lord is like tree planted by a river so it can drink deep, and never stop bearing fruits and will withstand the drought. Sounds to me like he who trust in the Lord will have access to living water, which as we learn in John comes from Christ. He said "the water that I shall give him shall never athirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

Note here, the living water comes not from a book, but Christ himself. So one who trusts in God, will receive living water from Him. Still with me?

Now we get to verse 9. It says do not trust the heart, for it is deceitful above all things. Who can know it? Sounds reasonable enough. The Heart, in scripture is often used to represet the source of our desires and motivations. Christ said that out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murder, adultery, etc. Wow so the heart is a bad thing right?

Not neccessarily. We are told by Christ, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. 1 Timothy 1:5 says the end of living the commandments is a pure heart, a good conscience, and faith unfeigned. The concept of repentance is turning one's heart to God and doing his living by his word. This requires the casting off of sin and replacing it with a Christ-like life. It depends on where your faith and focus is. Thus, the desires of the heart can be pure and good. But who can know the heart?

The Lord declares "I know the heart and I try the reigns, and give according to the fruit of his doings. What is the Lord saying here? The Lord knows the desires of our heart? Of course. And he rewards us by the fruits of our labors! So if we live God's commandments, trusting in Him with our heart, the result is "faith unfeigned."

When Christ testified to his apostles on the road to Emmeaus, their hearts burned within them, testifying of the words of the Savior. Paul wrote the fruits of the Spirit were "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith." When hearing the word of God many were "pricked in their hearts." The righteous had the commandments of God "written upon their hearts."

Such is the way the Spirit testifies of things. Jeff would convince you that these emotional responses are non-scriptural, but there is abounding evidence that they are. He is locked into the ideals of uninspired men who reject the living God and worship a book.

The Promise of Mormonism....and really the Bible as well

The sectarian creeds of Christianity have locked the minds of men into a cycle. They say if you pray and ask God for wisdom, you will find wisdom in the Bible. But what if a teaching in the Bible is confusing? Many doctrines are interpreted in so many ways as to destroy any hope of reconciling truth by looking within its pages. Greg has constantly illustrated that Christianity is divided upon the teachings of a book that it holds as inerrant and the supreme authority of all Christian Doctrine.

In the 6000 years or so that has passed since Adam and Eve's expulsion from the Garden of Eden to say that all of God's words are confined to a Book that contains the records from aproximately 1100 years BC (the time of Moses to Malachi) and then 100 years or so after is heresy.

Secular Christianity has a form of godliness but denies the power therof. Emerson, in his Divinity School address calimed "The stationariness of religion; the assumption that the age of inspiration is past, that the Bible is closed; the fear of degrading the character of Jesus by representing him as a man; indicate with sufficient clearness the falsehood of our theology. It is the office of a true teacher to show us that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake. The true Christianity, — a faith like Christ's in the infinitude of man, — is lost.

The message of the LDS church is this: Don't take man's word for it. Trust in God and ask him. You don't even have to take my word in it. Just ask of God and he will tell you if what is true. He as answered my prayers, testifying that there are living propehts on the earth, that the Book of Mormon is scripture.

[captmoroniRM]

Note....i hate how I think I"m on the last page, I write something, and magically 3 other pages appear. I should pay more attention first.

[JohnnyRudick]

Note....i hate how I think I"m on the last page, I write something, and magically 3 other pages appear. I should pay more attention first.

Don't - cha just hate it when that happens:D