John 5:19

[mikbone]

"What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before."

Assumptions:

Fear and Trembling - I have always thought that this refers to the atonement

I think that everyone who has, or is destined to receive a body on this earth was able to witness Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice.

"As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

Questions:

Did Jehovah witness the Father's atonement? Because it seems like everyone else in the pre-existence was in the dark concerning the details of the atonement when Jehovah presented the Father's plan to us.

Are we going to be able to tread in the tracks of our fathers?, and have our "fathers" experienced sin to the degree that we have?

How can we expect our children to follow in our tracks if we are not able to give them a proper example of fear and trembling. Will they have to refer to Jesus Christ's example?

[Justice]

John 5:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

You've made a lot of assumptions from that verse. I'm not saying whether I agree or not, just saying one has to read a lot in to walk away with what you did.

Fear and trembling is referenced to us as well, not just to Christ. I view it as more of a "broken heart and contrite spirit." Fear of God is reverence of God. Trembling, in my opinion, shows honesty and sincererity. When one is honest and sincere, on his path to being born again, he must recognize his own worthlessness.

I would never expect anyone to do as I do, even though we are put in situations everyday where people might follow us. My advice to my kids is always to follow Christ, not me. The times I emulate Christ more than others are the times I don't mind them doing what I do, but I never encourage them to do so. I send them right to the source.

I have always assumed Jehova did not witness the Father's mortality, since He was not able to have children of His own before He received the knowledge of good and evil and being born on an earth.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Justice

[tubaloth]

Did Jehovah witness the Father's atonement?

No.

Also we don't know if the Father was the ONE that preformed the atonement. We tent to assume this by the statement made (and statement by Joseph Smith). But all we do know is that our Father did what was required to gain his exaltation. That could be being a Savior, or it could be dying before the age of accountability. Both gain there exaltation.

Because it seems like everyone else in the pre-existence was in the dark concerning the details of the atonement when Jehovah presented the Father's plan to us.

I'm not exactly sure how you reached this conclusions.

First, as far as I know it was our Father that presented the plan to us. And wanted to know who to fulfill the plan.

What I think we all saw in our Father (and was probably explained to some degree) is that our Father was Obedient. We wanted to be Obedient to our Father (as did Jehovah). We know our Father was obedient to his Father because of his position. We desired the same thing!

This is what Christ exemplifies! Obedience to his Father!

(Abraham 3:25.)

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Are we going to be able to tread in the tracks of our fathers?,

fathers as of now there is only ONE Father I know anything about. I can follow his example. How? Because I can follow Christ, he follows Heavenly Father! Taking the next step is Our Heavenly Father followed those before Him. So in a sense, when I follow Christ, who Followed Heavenly Father, who followed his father before him, yes!

and have our "fathers" experienced sin to the degree that we have?

We don't know! We know that they must have past through a mortal experience. So they do know what mortal life is like, i.e. being tempted. But being tempted and experiencing sin is different. (Ask Christ).

How can we expect our children to follow in our tracks if we are not able to give them a proper example of fear and trembling. Will they have to refer to Jesus Christ's example?

We show them that we were obedient no matter what! That we overcame all the effects of Evil and turned to God! This is what we expect of our Children to do. Not to perform an atonement! (God does not worry about the magnitude of our sacrifice, only that we are sacrificing everything we have).

[mikbone]

You've made a lot of assumptions from that verse. I'm not saying whether I agree or not, just saying one has to read a lot in to walk away with what you did.

Yeah, I tend to wonder. I have faith, but not blind faith. I like to know the details. I'm a surgeon by trade and before I go into a case I like to know exactly what im getting into. I'm not a 'lets open the hood and fix the car kinda guy'. I do my homework and try to be prepared as much as possible for the complications that unexpectly occur. I not trying to be offensive. Just wanted to state succintly a few inconsistencies that I have been and will continue to try to work out. BTW, I know that there is a 'unified field theory' that applies to the plan of salvation. Its obvious. The chruch is true. Joseph Smith obviously knew it (the big picutre). I'm just trying to figure it out.

Fear and trembling is referenced to us as well, not just to Christ. I view it as more of a "broken heart and contrite spirit." Fear of God is reverence of God. Trembling, in my opinion, shows honesty and sincererity. When one is honest and sincere, on his path to being born again, he must recognize his own worthlessness.

Yeah I've trembled before and felt fear. Just not to the degree that Jesus Christ did. D&C 122:7-8.

I would never expect anyone to do as I do, even though we are put in situations everyday where people might follow us. My advice to my kids is always to follow Christ, not me. The times I emulate Christ more than others are the times I don't mind them doing what I do, but I never encourage them to do so. I send them right to the source.

Totally agree. I know that I fall short of Christ - unfortunately WAY short. Yet I tell my children to follow him. I continue to strive, and will do so even after this mortal life. You will too.

I have always assumed Jehova did not witness the Father's mortality, since He was not able to have children of His own before He received the knowledge of good and evil and being born on an earth.

Here we part ways. It is an inconsistency that I have yet to resolve.

BTW, I do believe that everyone that was in our pre-existent state was able to witness Jesus Christ's atonement. Or will be able to prior to the final judgement.

Edited March 28, 2009 by mikbone

[mikbone]

tubaloth,

I get the idea that Jehovah presented the plan to us in the pre-existant state from Abraham 3:23-27

Especially verse 24.

And there stood one among them that was like unto God (I assume that this is Jehovah), and he said unto them...

Jehovah was immeasurably more intelligent than the rest of our Father's spiritual children in the pre-existence. It is difficult to make an evaluation of the disparity between His intelligence and the intelligence of every other spirit child in the pre-existence. But in an attempt to do so, I believe that Jehovah could be portrayed as a very polished member of society with multiple PhDs in all categories of science and art while the rest of the spiritual mass would be finger-painters in kindergarten. This idea is supported by a verse in Abraham and some commentary on that same verse.

And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. Abraham 3:19

"It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham - accepted by the Church as scripture - that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is "more intelligent than them all". I believe that this means more than that God is more intelligent than any other one of the intelligences. It means that he is more intelligent than all of the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass." Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, footnote 8, p. 353

[MrNirom]

I suppose a question that comes to mind is that if our Father was once a man like we are.. and he had a Father in Heaven.. who was once a man like we are.. and he had a Father in Heaven.. who was once a man like we are... ... ... ... ... Who has the MOST intelligence?

[mikbone]

I suppose a question that comes to mind is that if our Father was once a man like we are.. and he had a Father in Heaven.. who was once a man like we are.. and he had a Father in Heaven.. who was once a man like we are... ... ... ... ... Who has the MOST intelligence?

Point well taken.

I like this statement from the guys at despair.com better,

None of Us is as Dumb as All of Us.

[Guest tomk]

I think it was literal. Jesus did everything He saw the Father do. We just don't think in terms of an eternal "now" like God does. Time is not linear for God. Time does not exist for Him in the manner it does for us. So Jesus was able to see Past, Present, Future, since everything the Father did and said, Jesus did and said.

As for the Atonement -- I don't know. I don't think the Atonement needs to be redone or has been done before. Jesus performed the Atonement, once, for all time, past, present, and future.

I think "Jesus doing / saying only what the Father did / said" is most applicable to His teachings and miracles during His ministry. But I don't think the Father coached Jesus on how to perform the Atonement. I think it was much more intimate than that. I think the Son's will was subject to the Father, so much so that it was just "AS IF" the Father Himself had performed the Atonement. The Son acted as a proxy for the Father.

Alma 42:

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

"God himself atoneth for the sins of the world"

Are we talking about God, the Son

OR

God, the Father?

I think it is God, the Father. Only an Exalted Being, God the Father, could power the Son sufficiently to perform the Atonement.

From D&C 19:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.

23 Learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace in me.

24 I am Jesus Christ; I came by the will of the Father, and I do his will.

"and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men."

This is not "theatre" nor is it Jesus just being "modest" or "humble" and giving credit to God when it was really Him doing it all.

Remember, Jesus asked if there was another way. He said "only if there is no other way, then I will submit to your will and do this."

Jesus was afraid He would shrink from the task.

This was not necessarily fear, just an honest (and accurate) admission to the Father of us all that He knew He was not equal to the task. Heavenly Father gave unto the Son of His Power. This is why Jesus says, "Nevertheless, glory be unto the Father..."

This is instructive as to how WE should be. How closely OUR WILL should be aligned with the Father's will, which is the Son's will.

My two cents. :)

Tom

PS: A great book on this topic is:

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Your Store

[mikbone]

Tomk

McConkie in Mormon Doctrine under title Atonement of Christ wrote along a similar line.

"which means that the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an infinite number of earths"

I just dont buy it.

I like Joseph Smiths' explanation better found in the king folet discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, P. 346

"Power of the Father and the Son

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. (2) The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, (3) namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me."

You state that:

"Only an Exalted Being, God the Father, could power the Son sufficiently to perform the Atonement."

No doubt, the Father did give Jesus encouragement. But I find it curious that Christ asked the Father three times if it would be possible for the bitter cup to be taken from him. And only when an un-named angle came to visit Christ in the Garden of Eden was Jesus strengthened enough to make the final decision to partake of the bitter cup. And then, during the bitter agony of the Atonement the Father had to leave Christ's presence so that He (Jesus) could perform the task alone. Matthew 27:46

I have a theory as to who the un-named angel was that strengthed Christ, and I think that it is pretty awesome.

Finally, you finish with a discussion upon Glory and Honor. I LOVE these concepts. Have you ever read Cleon Skousen's - The First 2,000 Years? Especially the appendix B, Why Was The Attonement Necessary? If you haven't it is a must read! I think that Cleon's book taught me how to think more so than any other book or class that I have ever taken (and I've had lots of schoolin). It is my 3rd favorite gospel book only after the 1) Standard Works, and 2) The Words of Joseph Smith (compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook).

Anyway... Honor and Glory are something that Lucifer certainly did not understand. It is something that cannot be given, but can only be earned. It is interesting that Lucifer argued in the pre-existence that he would save us all if only the Father would give him (Lucifer) all the honor thus power. D&C 29:36, and Moses 4:3.

Whereas Christ was happy to perform his labors and give all the glory and honor to the Father. Well here is the kool thing about Honor and glory. If you do it right, it has an additive effect. Although he asked that the glory be the Father's he will retain plenty of honor himself.

Revelations 5:11-13

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and a thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'll finish with Revelation 3:21

To him that a overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Edited March 29, 2009 by mikbone

[Justice]

I get the idea that Jehovah presented the plan to us in the pre-existant state from Abraham 3:23-27

Especially verse 24.

And there stood one among them that was like unto God (I assume that this is Jehovah), and he said unto them...

I don't get that from those verses.

These verses appear to take place after the council in heaven, and seem to be in the "do" stage. Jehova directs the creation, but it was not His plan. It was the Father's plan. The Father presented it and chose Jehova, who said, "Here am I, send me."

I do admit that there are some words in those verses that are difficult to understand. I don't want to point them out because I don't want them to cause anyone else to question anything.

[Justice]

Also, at Jesus' most desperate hour on the cross, He asks His Father why He has forsaken Him. We generally take this to mean that the Father left Him, or His Spirit left Him, so that He could work the Atonement Himself.

[bytor2112]

I have a theory as to who the un-named angel was that strengthed Christ, and I think that it is pretty awesome.

Well, don't leave us hanging.....what's your theory?? I tend to think it was Michael.

[mikbone]

Well, don't leave us hanging.....what's your theory?? I tend to think it was Michael.

Yeah. It was Michael.

Michael said and did something in the Garden that was more powerful and inspirational then what God the Father could. I figured it out during a morning jog about 15 years ago, and cried like a baby for a long time. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I think that it would be an injustice if I were to tell ya the story without you being able to figure it out yourself though.

Enjoy.

[mikbone]

These verses appear to take place after the council in heaven, and seem to be in the "do" stage. Jehova directs the creation, but it was not His plan. It was the Father's plan. The Father presented it and chose Jehova, who said, "Here am I, send me."

The Father was the Architect

Jesus was the Carpenter

Yes sir. Wouldn't being a carpenter be a great training ground prior to becoming an architect?

[Justice]

Yeah. It was Michael.

Michael said and did something in the Garden that was more powerful and inspirational then what God the Father could. I figured it out during a morning jog about 15 years ago, and cried like a baby for a long time. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I think that it would be an injustice if I were to tell ya the story without you being able to figure it out yourself though.

Enjoy.

I completely undetrstand.

However, how about some scriptures to read?

[mikbone]

Its kinda a long story...

Alot of it has to do with the personality of Adam, for he was truely selfless. The First 2,000 years is the best book for understanding Adam. If you haven't read it, its a detailed study of the Pearl of Great Price.

Another part has to do with the relationship between Adam and Jehovah. I think that they were close.

Ether 3:14-16

Thats a good start.

[Justice]

I'll have to give that a serious study. On first read, nothing stood out... but I know how scriptures are. Sometimes you have to read them for years before their meaning is made plain.

Here's one for you, mikbone (I thought your name was milkbone until I typed it lol). And, when you read it, I'm curious what you think. You can send me a private message if you like.

I discovered a "play-by-play," if you will, of the pre-mortal existence, or more specifically, of the war in heaven. It gives us a much more in-depth look at how and why it was started, the players, and the landscape, and a much more detailed descriptuon of events. There is truly a goldmine of information in these 2 chapters.

Alma 43 and 44.

It starts before 43:8 and goes on after 44:12, but those 2 verses alone will paint a picture and define some terms, and get you started in the right direction to wrap your heart and brain around what's being said. So, read those 2 verses first, then go back and read the chapters. It does speak about Michael but does not name him. But, it does give you an idea of what you're saying about how close they must have been.

After you read those 2 verses with the pre-mortal existence in mind, you will be drawn to the chapters. Then, you will never look at the Book of Mormon the same way again. You will look for and find types of Christ everywhere inbetween the covers, and in the overall stories of the individual prophets, peoples, and even in the Book of Mormon itself.

The truthfullness of the Book of Mormon is contained in the words themselves.

After you do that, go to the web edition of the scriptures at the Church site and search the scriptures for "agency." Read all the scriptures that come up (8 or 10) and enough verses before and after them to get a setting for what's going on.

Very remarkable.

[mikbone]

I love it!

I never before read it with that insight. Makes you wonder; do these type of experiences just keep repeating over and over, or did the lord set this in motion just so that we might have a better record of the war in heaven? No doubt Alma was inspired in the placement of some of his words (or did he have a vision of the War in Heaven prior to documenting this history).

I always liked Captain Moroni.

Couple questions:

Who do you think the Anti-Nephi-Lehis represent?

When a combatant was slain on either side what does that represent?

Is Alma Jehovah?

The 1/3, 2/3 numbers are reversed. D&C 29:36 vs. Alma 43:51

I really, really like Alma 44:15.

We are taught that Satan's 1/3 host were sent down to the Earth with him as his host of sub-devils to tempt us and cause havoc. If you just think about the numbers... And count all the people that have ever come to earth and then take that number and half it, that would represent all the evil spirits that now reside on the earth. Which would mean that there would be an overwhelming number of evil spirits in ratio to each mortal. And if you lived a time peiod when human population was low (during Adam's or Noah's time) the ratio was MUCH higher. This verse suggests that many of the 1/3 host entered into a covenant of peace thus were not cast down to earth and just faded away (wandered into the wilderness). I buy that. Only the really stupid (vengeful) ones are here.

[Justice]

Who do you think the Anti-Nephi-Lehis represent?

I'm not certain, but I think they may represent "many of the noble and great ones." I believe that a "man" can be "born again" in any of the three stages of existence. I believe it is speaking of those who were born again in the pre-mortal existence, or those who only needed to get a body, like children who die before the age of accountability, or those who never fully mature past innocent.

When a combatant was slain on either side what does that represent?

I think maybe it refers to "being won by the other side." Since you bring it up, though, I do wonder what blood represents. It is clear that it had a pre-mortal significance as well, since we know our pre-mortal bodies did not have blood. I'm kind of leaning toward something to do with agency. Those who choose to side with Satan give up their agency, their mortality, and hence their blood. There seems to be more to it, I'll just have to keep studying.

Also, watch for the terms "breastplate and shield." I wonder how related these are to the breastplate and stones that make up a urim and thummim? Anyway, just food for thought.

Is Alma Jehovah?

Captain Moroni is Jehova. Read it carefully. Alma may epresent the Father, though. It's interesting how Alma disappears after the war, as if man goes through the fall and becomes spiritually dead.

The 1/3, 2/3 numbers are reversed. D&C 29:36 vs. Alma 43:51

Someone presented evidence on this forum a while back about what the 1/3 might mean. Itmay not necessarily mean a fraction of the whole, but there were 3 choices to choose between, and those who sided with Satan simply represented 1 of the 3 sides. This makes sense through ponder and prayer.

Thanks for your reply. You know, there is so much I've already identified in those 2 chapters, and I have no idea how much more is there for me to discover. A few things I have discovered are:

According to Alma 43, the war started when the opposition grew large enough. I often wondered how Father knew everyone was ready to make a choice. At one moment He said, "Now is the time for all to choose" just doesn't sound right. It leaves a lot unanswered. Alma 43 suggests that when the opposition grew large enough, they pressed the issue and came to "war" with the other side. It wasn't that Father said when, but "we" said when. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. I mean, when have you ever heard of the "wicked opposition" attacking when they knew they were out-numbered severely? If there are stories of smaller armies fighting for a cause it is usually a righteous people fighting for their freedom. When Lucifer and his followers thought they had sufficient strength (staying hidden by secret covenant--Gadianton style), only then would they "attack" or force the issue. When I learned this it was like a flood of light to me, because I had always wondered how the war in heaven started.

Another truth is that Lucifer may have held the birth-right at first, and it was given to Jehova because of His righteousness. Notice Captain Moroni was given control of the entire Nephite Army when he was 25. Christ was born in the meridian of time. I believe God has tried to tell us this in many, many ways. Esau, Nephi, when Christ was born, Joseph of Egypt, on and on.

Another is that it was a beautiful place with valleys, hills, streams, and a wilderness.

I have yet to soak it all up, but I'm working on it.

[Justice]

Here is an interesting verse that talks about how the war started:

Alma 43:

14 Now those descendants were as numerous, nearly, as were the Nephites; and thus the Nephites were obliged to contend with their brethren, even unto bloodshed.

[Justice]

And, did you catch this:

Alma 43:

44 And they were inspired by the Zoramites and the Amalekites, who were their chief captains and leaders, and by Zerahemnah, who was their chief captain, or their chief leader and commander; yea, they did fight like dragons, and many of the Nephites were slain by their hands, yea, for they did smite in two many of their head-plates, and they did pierce many of their breastplates, and they did smite off many of their arms; and thus the Lamanites did smite in their fierce anger.

[mikbone]

yeah, reading the whole thing again...

[mikbone]

OK, OK

Captain Moroni - Jehovah

Lehi - Michael

Zerahemnah is obviously Lucifer

I really love Alma 44:3 - This would be Jehovah declairing his testimony that "we" are more powerful than you because our plan of salvation (with free agency and a savior) is better than your plan. And you CANNOT destroy our plan. Goes great with Revelation 12:11 Overcame him with the word of their testimony.

What a great battle this must have been.

Coincidentally my wife just showed me a youtube video of the haka dance. Made me think about fighting with testimonies. The BYU team sometimes does it before football games.

Also Alma 44:7 Inflict wounds of death upon your body that ye may become extinct. Ive always wondered if there was a way to anhiliate someone's soul. For example sending someone to outer darkness (a black hole). This would make sense.

Its good stuff.

Edited March 29, 2009 by mikbone

[beefche]

I have no idea what you're talking about in this thread, but that video of NZ vs. Tonga was just awesome! I love the Haka!

[mikbone]

Head Plate or Helmet covers and protects your Brain or seat of your knowledge - the knowledge of the truth that what you are doing is just

Breastplate protects your internal organs and heart - thus your determination and courage

So when the Lamanites smote the Nephites they were able to - confuse them into losing their belief in the truth and demoralizing them such that they no longer had the will to defend their principles. Thus they were overcome, and fell in with the opposition.