Questions From A Seeker

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 09:01 PM

by Paul O:

The Lord has revealed to prophets that man may become like God. This is a great mystery and is revealed in the Bible by prophets who desired to teach the saints concerning the ultimate possibilities for those who fully embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ.

ect..

Wow thanks for the info. It is a lot to digest. I have copied it so I can study it in the morning(I am at work currently)

I went to see the movie The TESTAMENT the other day at the visitors center in Kirtland and I must say it was very moving. I have begun to look at the BOM more closely. I also have a brother who is a Mormon Elder with which I have had some discussions. Some of the information I have has come from him and a member of the local priesthood with whom I have been having discussions. I know that there are a world of people out there that want to make horrible remarks and argue just for the sake of argueing. I am asking because I am interested in knowing the truth. I sense that my questions are making people uncomfortable and I apologize for that. It was not my intent. I have asked these questions locally and and have gotten a sense that they are questions they shouldnt talk about. Again I am sorry for causing discomfort or concern. I will seek the answers I need in some other way. Please accept my apologies.

sanctuaryave,

Hang in there. Put your faith in Christ, desire to know all truth, and keep an open mind. The Internet can be confusing sometimes as we communicate with so many people. I hope you find out for yourself that the Book of Mormon is true. It is true. I found out for my self by the overpowering feelings of the Holy Ghost.

Paul O

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM

...you have mistaken my motives, questioned my integrity and are acting like a jerk.

Yeah, maybe but I not trying to hide that from anyone.

Quick, who am I impersonating: With all due respect and no intention of harming, you all are scaring me cuz I wonder if you worship the creator or the creator of the creator. It is all so confusing, sounding like you intend to replace Christ when you all become Gods but how can that be seeings how Joseph Smith's whole adult life was criminal since he broke the law everywhere he went, you know, beings how he was involved with them murdering danites and all and he really did deserve the tar, not to mention the feathering but you know I am just asking because I want to know the truth and stuff so when I make these snide and remarks I am not really ill-intentioned, just a seeker of knowledge really.

Sure. And I have idiot stamped smack in the middle of my forehead. If you want answers, drop the act and ask. If you are trolling (ill-intentioned) then do it in the open.

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 11 2004, 12:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 11 2004, 12:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM

...you have mistaken my motives, questioned my integrity and are acting like a jerk.

Yeah, maybe but I not trying to hide that from anyone.

Sure. And I have idiot stamped smack in the middle of my forehead. If you want answers, drop the act and ask. If you are trolling (ill-intentioned) then do it in the open.

I haven't hidden from anyone and have been plain and clear speaking in every post. For some reason you are afraid of my questions. All I have asked is for honesty. I have asked and answered honestly. I have my own personal feeling about JS and am even willing to look past them. I just wish, when you are trying to mock and mimic me, you actually try to reflect with some accuracy what I've actually said. You're childish response allows all who read your post to see the true light that burns inside. My brother often refers to an " outward expression of an Inward committment". I assume thats what you've displayed here. In any case I will search elsewhere for the answers I'm looking for. I'm undecided as to whether mormonism is for me. I'm very sure that I dont want to be your brand of mormon... Thanks for the christian charity.

BTW...Having never met you I have no idea what is stamped on your forehead. If you think it says idiot....I can live with that!

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 11 2004, 12:19 AM

I just wish, when you are trying to mock and mimic me, you actually try to reflect with some accuracy what I've actually said. You're childish response allows all who read your post to see the true light that burns inside.

Cut to the quick. Why yes, you were willing look past Joseph Smith's full adult life of crimes, breaking the law where ever he went, hanging out with those murderous ruffians the demonic danites, yes, willing to look past it all and look right on to Mormons worshipping the creator of the creator and taking the place of Christ.

I get some of these wrong, but you I ain't got wrong.

Maybe it is just me, but if I were interested and honest, I would have perhaps said something along the lines of Hey, I heard Joseph Smith was not an honest guy and had been arrested. Does anybody know if he was ever convicted on something? Granted, I have heard mostly from disreputable antiMormon sources but am interested in hearing the other side.

What I wouldn't have done is ask set up question, I answers which I already knew and then maybe snide absurd statement like, Who, now you're scarring me cuz you think yoour going to takeover and fire God.

That's just me. How's that inner light there burning? Not so brightly?

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 11 2004, 01:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 11 2004, 01:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 11 2004, 12:19 AM

I just wish, when you are trying to mock and mimic me, you actually try to reflect with some accuracy what I've actually said.  You're childish response allows all who read your post to see the true light that burns inside.

Cut to the quick. Why yes, you were willing look past Joseph Smith's full adult life of crimes, breaking the law where ever he went, hanging out with those murderous ruffians the demonic danites, yes, willing to look past it all and look right on to Mormons worshipping the creator of the creator and taking the place of Christ.

I get some of these wrong, but you I ain't got wrong.

Maybe it is just me, but if I were interested and honest, I would have perhaps said something along the lines of Hey, I heard Joseph Smith was not an honest guy and had been arrested. Does anybody know if he was ever convicted on something? Granted, I have heard mostly from disreputable antiMormon sources but am interested in hearing the other side.

What I wouldn't have done is ask set up question, I answers which I already knew and then maybe snide absurd statement like, Who, now you're scarring me cuz you think yoour going to takeover and fire God.

That's just me. How's that inner light there burning? Not so brightly?

I never asked about Joseph Smith. I know quite a bit about him. I know he was found guilty in Ohio regarding the anti-bank matter and left town while it was under appeal. I had already read about him and formulated an opinion. Someone asked me if I believed he was a prophet. And I gave my honest opinion. I did not attack the church or anyone else. I answered a question honestly that was asked of me.

As to my questioning whether the you worship the creator or the one before him... I was unaware that you believe there was a god before god. My whole Life I have been taught that God is God and thats all there is. None before or after. The concept that I can attain Godhood is very new and scary. Why cant you make room for honest questions. I dont want to fight with you.. I thought I was coming here to see if My brother had found something right and true. It has apparently affected his life in a very positive way. I wanted to find out for myself.

You know maybe your right... I did have an agenda. Its just not what you want to believe it is. You want me to be here to attack and put down the Mormon church. I wont do that. I just want to see if there is something I'm missing. I guess I have found my answer. I dont want to fight.. I'm just looking for a place to serve.

I know my brothers committment to Jesus Christ and I have watched it open and flourish in the church. He went from Drug addict to Elder and the Mormon church stood by him and helped him get there. Thank God he didnt run into your brand of Mormon. Be careful .. you're inward commitment is showing.

[Paul Osborne]

Snow,

You better be right about sanctuaryave’s ill inttentions or I deem you utterly pitiful and you have made a fool of yourself, as usual.

sanctuaryave, I wouldn’t put much stock into Snow’s behavior in this thread-- it certainly doesn’t represent the average Mormon response. How about you cut and paste his replies and forward them to your brother? Let your brother set the record right on Snow.

Gads, when it snows it snows. Someone call for a plow. Gee- wiz.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave+Feb 11 2004, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sanctuaryave @ Feb 11 2004, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Feb 11 2004, 12:38 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--sanctuaryave@Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM

...you have mistaken my motives, questioned my integrity and are acting like a jerk.

Yeah, maybe but I not trying to hide that from anyone.

Sure. And I have idiot stamped smack in the middle of my forehead. If you want answers, drop the act and ask. If you are trolling (ill-intentioned) then do it in the open.

I haven't hidden from anyone and have been plain and clear speaking in every post. For some reason you are afraid of my questions. All I have asked is for honesty. I have asked and answered honestly. I have my own personal feeling about JS and am even willing to look past them. I just wish, when you are trying to mock and mimic me, you actually try to reflect with some accuracy what I've actually said. You're childish response allows all who read your post to see the true light that burns inside. My brother often refers to an " outward expression of an Inward committment". I assume thats what you've displayed here. In any case I will search elsewhere for the answers I'm looking for. I'm undecided as to whether mormonism is for me. I'm very sure that I dont want to be your brand of mormon... Thanks for the christian charity.

BTW...Having never met you I have no idea what is stamped on your forehead. If you think it says idiot....I can live with that!

Snow is a good man. Funny, and trying to bounce, not drop the ball. He doesn't come off all that 'quiet and normal' and you shouldn't expect it of him.

Just ask him to give you a talk and you will see just how cool and informative he can be.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 10 2004, 10:46 PM

Sara was his sister you goofball.

I can see my little ball flew right over your head. Oh well. Can't win em all.

Paul O

Your "little ball" didn't fly anywhere. President Hinkley was lying. Abraham was not. There's no comparison between the two situations.

[srm]

sanctuaryave,

you said...

I know he was found guilty in Ohio regarding the anti-bank matter and left town while it was under appeal.

Please show me where he was found guilty? While you're at it can you tell me about Oliver Granger?

[Snow]

Okay then Sanctuary,

I don't buy what you are saying but in as much as I could possibly, remotely, truly, madly be mistaken, I'll let you do your thing and then we'll all know what your intentions are. Have at it.

[Snow]

Okay then Sanctuary,

I don't buy what you are saying but in as much as I could possibly, remotely, truly, madly be mistaken, I'll let you do your thing and then we'll all know what your intentions are. Have at it.

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 11 2004, 03:49 PM

Okay then Sanctuary,

I don't buy what you are saying but in as much as I could possibly, remotely, truly, madly be mistaken, I'll let you do your thing and then we'll all know what your intentions are. Have at it.

Snow

Thats okay I haven't bought much of what you have said either. I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.

I have spoken to a local high priest here, presented the discussion we had on this forum and he has agreed to sit down with me and help get some answers. Interestingly.. before he agreed to do so he insisted on 2 things. 1) that I prepare for the discussion with some relevant scripture which he provided and 2) that I allow him to apologize for what transpired here on the thread.. Which I agreed to.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 11 2004, 10:31 AM

Sara was his sister you goofball.

I can see my little ball flew right over your head. Oh well. Can't win em all.

Paul O

Your "little ball" didn't fly anywhere. President Hinkley was lying. Abraham was not. There's no comparison between the two situations.

Say what?

[sanctuaryave]

Originally posted by srm@Feb 11 2004, 11:54 AM

sanctuaryave,

you said...

I know he was found guilty in Ohio regarding the anti-bank matter and left town while it was under appeal.

Please show me where he was found guilty? While you're at it can you tell me about Oliver Granger?

One of the original Three Witnesses, David Whitmer, joined with other prominent church leaders in renouncing Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet over the anti-bank debacle.

On the night of January 12, 1838, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon fled on horseback from Kirtland to the shelter of the Missouri Saints in Nauvoo. Smith later claimed that he left "to escape mob violence, which was about to burst upon us under the color of legal process to cover the hellish designs of our enemies."

In reality, Smith had left behind $100,000 in debts. Also, the Ohio legislature had charged him with operating an unchartered bank and ultimately fined him $1,000 in absentia. (Unfortunately for the state of Ohio, they had to get in line with dozens of investors who had already brought suit against him.)

Once in Nauvoo, Smith declared bankruptcy after transferring lots of his assets to his wives, children, friends, and associates -- altogether totaling 105 people. (In 1844, these transfers were declared fraudulent and illegal.)

Can be found at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/abanking.htm

Reagrding Oliver Granger:

Oliver Granger was the financial agent for the Church who was asked to settle the affairs of the Church in Kirtland, Ohio, after the Saints left that area. His name is included in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 117:12 .

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave+Feb 11 2004, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sanctuaryave @ Feb 11 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 11 2004, 03:49 PM

Okay then Sanctuary,

I don't buy what you are saying but in as much as I could possibly, remotely, truly, madly be mistaken, I'll let you do your thing and then we'll all know what your intentions are. Have at it.

Snow

Thats okay I haven't bought much of what you have said either. I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.

I have spoken to a local high priest here, presented the discussion we had on this forum and he has agreed to sit down with me and help get some answers. Interestingly.. before he agreed to do so he insisted on 2 things. 1) that I prepare for the discussion with some relevant scripture which he provided and 2) that I allow him to apologize for what transpired here on the thread.. Which I agreed to.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Let me get this straight.

Your insulting me (" I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.") right after you got through complaining that I was rude. Is that a little like the pot calling the kettle hypocritical? Why yes, yes it is.

And, that local high priest made you agree to let him apologize for what transpired here? How's that? Did he force you to come in with a false agenda and insult Mormonism or did he force me to recognize it in you, thereby ostensibly offending you? That's odd, eh? Why yes, yes it is.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 11 2004, 10:31 AM

Sara was his sister you goofball.

I can see my little ball flew right over your head. Oh well. Can't win em all.

Paul O

Your "little ball" didn't fly anywhere. President Hinkley was lying. Abraham was not. There's no comparison between the two situations.

prove it.

Paul O

[sanctuaryave]

"And, that local high priest made you agree to let him apologize for what transpired here? How's that? Did he force you to come in with a false agenda and insult Mormonism or did he force me to recognize it in you, thereby ostensibly offending you? "

No, he simply said he was embarrassed and hoped I understood that not all Mormons are like that.

and just so we are clear on the facts...

"Your insulting me (" I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.") right after you got through complaining that I was rude."

I dont recall compaining that you were rude. I defended myself against unwarranted attack. I'm not intending to insult you, I'm making an assumption. Thats kinda what you did isn't it? Why yes, yes it is.

"Is that a little like the pot calling the kettle hypocritical? Why yes, yes it is."

Only if the kettle actually is a hypocrite.

Nuff said?

[Snow]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 11 2004, 11:24 PM

No, he simply said he was embarrassed and hoped I understood that not all Mormons are like that.

and just so we are clear on the facts...

"Your insulting me (" I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.") right after you got through complaining that I was rude."

I defended myself against unwarranted attack. I'm not intending to insult you, I'm making an assumption. Thats kinda what you did isn't it? Why yes, yes it is.

"Is that a little like the pot calling the kettle hypocritical? Why yes, yes it is."

Only if the kettle actually is a hypocrite.

Nuff said?

What's going on is obvious. With him in person, you aren't playing your passive agressive bit and so he thinks that maybe you were unfairly chastized. I disagree.

I dont recall compaining that you were rude.

Did your friend apologize for your having a short memory too? What you said was:

"you... are acting like a jerk.

So when you tell me I am or am acting like a jerk and say stuff life I am the unsavory sort that others are forced to tolerate it may or may not be true - matter of opinion really - but it most definately paints your kettle a delightful shade of hypocritical.

[sanctuaryave]

Snow...

Let me ask you this...

Please be specific. How would you have worded the questions I am asking?

[Snow]

Fair enough Sanct.

I have to run right now, but I'll give you some fair feedback tomorrow. Have a good night.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 11 2004, 10:19 PM

prove it.

Prove what? Read Genesis. Then read President Hinkley's comments. It proves itself.

[srm]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave+Feb 11 2004, 09:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sanctuaryave @ Feb 11 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Feb 11 2004, 11:54 AM

sanctuaryave,

you said...

I know he was found guilty in Ohio regarding the anti-bank matter and left town while it was under appeal.

Please show me where he was found guilty? While you're at it can you tell me about Oliver Granger?

One of the original Three Witnesses, David Whitmer, joined with other prominent church leaders in renouncing Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet over the anti-bank debacle.

On the night of January 12, 1838, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon fled on horseback from Kirtland to the shelter of the Missouri Saints in Nauvoo. Smith later claimed that he left "to escape mob violence, which was about to burst upon us under the color of legal process to cover the hellish designs of our enemies."

In reality, Smith had left behind $100,000 in debts. Also, the Ohio legislature had charged him with operating an unchartered bank and ultimately fined him $1,000 in absentia. (Unfortunately for the state of Ohio, they had to get in line with dozens of investors who had already brought suit against him.)

Once in Nauvoo, Smith declared bankruptcy after transferring lots of his assets to his wives, children, friends, and associates -- altogether totaling 105 people. (In 1844, these transfers were declared fraudulent and illegal.)

Can be found at http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/abanking.htm

Reagrding Oliver Granger:

Oliver Granger was the financial agent for the Church who was asked to settle the affairs of the Church in Kirtland, Ohio, after the Saints left that area. His name is included in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 117:12 .

Thank you. I few questions.

1. I coldn't find any sources on the website. Do you have any?

2. does a fine mean that a person was found guilty?

3. Can the legislative branch try someone and find them guilty or innocent?

any lawyers? pato?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 11 2004, 03:52 PM

Snow....I guess you're one of those people the church has to tolerate. Someone they always have to clean up after.

LOL! What? Is Snow some sort of pathological litter bug?

Interestingly.. before he agreed to do so he insisted on 2 things....2) that I allow him to apologize for what transpired here on the thread..

Who is he to apologize for something he knows nothing about. He has your side of the story and that's it. He sounds a little sanctimonious, IMO.

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm@Feb 12 2004, 09:16 AM

1. I coldn't find any sources on the website. Do you have any?

SRM,

What?

Do you mean that you don't accept everything on that website and actual fact?

Personally I wouldn't even bother reading it. There is enough information from reliable sources that you don't need to turn to biased, amateur, uneducated sources such as Krass Katt of Cult of the Dead Cow Communications.

Here's what I find more interesting. What does it say about someone would who openly acknowledge that Krass Kat of the Cult of the Dead Cow was his source???

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen@Feb 12 2004, 09:55 AM

Interestingly.. before he agreed to do so he insisted on 2 things....2) that I allow him to apologize for what transpired here on the thread..

Who is he to apologize for something he knows nothing about. He has your side of the story and that's it. He sounds a little sanctimonious, IMO.

M.

While we are on the subject. I would like to apologize for Spam and indeed, all canned meats and meat by-products. Sorry.

I also feel bad about the French Revolution and have a great deal of personal sorrow for the way that Michael Einser treats rank and file employees.