Baptism For The Dead

[Randy Johnson]

Dawn,

On another discussion board sponsored by "Restorationists" there is a thread that is discussing Baptism for the Dead.

I cannot believe what I am reading. So much confusion and waffling like I have never seen before. Some believe...some do not...etc.

Tell me straight....do you believe in Baptism for the Dead...and if you do...could you show me the scriptural references you use to support your position?

Then..if you could, explain to me how this doctine fits into the doctrinal beliefs (as they stand right now) of the Restorationists. Do you believe the doctrine will be or should I say, do you believe it "needs to be" reinstituted in a coming day if and when the Restorationists are able to unite and come together as one?

Do you believe the doctrine should be practiced as the Prophet Joseph taught it...or do you believe it should be...or will be, practiced in some other way, and if so..why? Why not practice it the way JS jr directed it should be?

randy

randy

[Jenda]

Give me the link to the discussion board and let me see the discussion so I can respond about their comments as well as offer comments of my own.

Thanks.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 5 2005, 10:05 AM

Give me the link to the discussion board and let me see the discussion so I can respond about their comments as well as offer comments of my own.

Thanks.

Dawn,

Center Place Discussion Board. Thread entitled "So where or what is the RLDS Church".

rj

[Jenda]

Randy, I post on that board, and there was no discussion about BftD. There is a discussion about baptism, which SF has been posting the liberal CoC schtick, but nothing about baptism for the dead. I will go back and re-read it, but having posted in that thread numerous times, I don't remember seeing anything about it in there.

I think I stated my position in that thread over there, but if you want me to state it here, I do not believe in BftD. I don'lt believe there is a need for it. The scriptures clearly indicate a time when those who come forth in the resurrection of the just will have 1000 years to see to their own baptism.

For quite a while, before I studied Section 76, and the other scriptures that related to Zion, I believed that BftD might have been necessary, but I no longer do. I do not believe it will be practiced at all.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 6 2005, 06:00 PM

Randy, I post on that board, and there was no discussion about BftD. There is a discussion about baptism, which SF has been posting the liberal CoC schtick, but nothing about baptism for the dead. I will go back and re-read it, but having posted in that thread numerous times, I don't remember seeing anything about it in there.

I think I stated my position in that thread over there, but if you want me to state it here, I do not believe in BftD. I don'lt believe there is a need for it. The scriptures clearly indicate a time when those who come forth in the resurrection of the just will have 1000 years to see to their own baptism.

For quite a while, before I studied Section 76, and the other scriptures that related to Zion, I believed that BftD might have been necessary, but I no longer do. I do not believe it will be practiced at all.

Hi Dawn,

You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it.

You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this.

It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place. You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology.

We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto.

If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority. Do I understand you correctly?

I just think you have your timeline a little skewed. Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"?

You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism. That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps. Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism.

The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement.

Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice?

randy

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 06:51 AM

Hi Dawn,

You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it.

You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for  Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this.

It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place.  You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology.

We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto.

If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority.  Do I understand you correctly?

I just think you have your timeline a little skewed.  Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel  must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"?

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church.

You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism.  That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps.  Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism.

The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement.

Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice?

                                                        randy

Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine.

[pushka]

Does baptism of the dead include baptism for those people who we, at the moment, consider to have been evil, as in Hitler, Stalin etc...as I have recently read that Baptism by proxy did take place for Hitler...

[john doe]

Yes, it is common practice for us to baptise for the most evil people in the world first. That way they can get a longer period of time to repent before the resurrection. The more righteous unbaptized dead will just have to wait.

(Hmmm, can't seem to find that sarcastic smilie anywhere. Sorry)

[pushka]

Lol John Doe...do you believe me that Hitler was baptised by proxy tho? or are you just being totally sarcastic...

[Amillia]

Originally posted by john doe@Mar 7 2005, 11:20 AM

Yes, it is common practice for us to baptise for the most evil people in the world first. That way they can get a longer period of time to repent before the resurrection. The more righteous unbaptized dead will just have to wait.         

(Hmmm, can't seem to find that sarcastic smilie anywhere. Sorry)

JD what is the significance of your Kurt Russel avatar " Escape from LA?"

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 7 2005, 08:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 7 2005, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 06:51 AM

Hi Dawn,

You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it.

You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for  Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this.

It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place.  You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology.

We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto.

If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority.   Do I understand you correctly?

I just think you have your timeline a little skewed.  Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel  must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"?

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church.

You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism.   That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps.   Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism.

The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement.

Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice?

                                                         randy

Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine.

Dawn,

I wasnt slamming your belief. I simply would like, as I have asked...for you to lay the scriptural foundation for your belief. Thats all.

I could explain to you in detail about what we believe concerning it...but, you already are well versed in it.

I am interested in what you believe and the restorationists as a whole. I know that this belief of yours is your own opinion...not shared by many others of the Restorationist camp.

Share with us if you will, the verse that teaches you that there will be baptisms of resurrected beings during the 1000 yrs. If you have a scriptural basis for what you believe then we can continue.

I understand when you say you cant believe in Baptism for the Dead because that would be somewhat akin to admitting that the RLDS church has been wrong all this time...and you put yourself in a position of bowing to "big brother" ie; the LDS church...which I know you would rather have hot pokers ran through your eyes before you admit such a thing.

The truth of the matter is...regardless of what you label it...is that Baptism for the Dead, whether it is done by proxy before the resurrection or as resurrected beings after the resurrection....is necessary.

Although we do not believe baptism's will be performed by resurrected beings, your personal belief on this subject betrays your time honored RLDS belief that Baptism for the Dead is not necessary, or that it has never been part of the gospel plan.

randy

....just as a note, I read on BYU newsnet that Pres. Larsen of the Remnant Church spoke to some BYU faculty about various things. In his remarks he made the following comments:

1) The Remnant church believes in the "principle of Baptism for the Dead, but not the practice".

2) The Remnant Church believes that Joseph Smith Jr was "not" a fallen prophet, but was a prophet who made some "errors" such as the doctrine of Plural Marriage.

I find these two comments fascinating because coming from the President of the Remnant church, which is even more conservative RLDS than the Restorationists....these comments are a major departure from the past.

As you know, in the past... the position of the RLDS/Restorationists has always been that Joseph had nothing to do with doctrine of Plural Marriage and that Baptism for the Dead was a spurrious doctrine.

These comments affirm that at least as far as the Remnant Church is concerned....Baptism for the Dead is scriptural and that Joseph did bring forth the doctrine of Plural Marriage and that it did not come from Brigham Young. BY just affirmed what Joseph taught.

I just thought that was very interesting.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Mar 7 2005, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Mar 7 2005, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 08:40 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 06:51 AM

Hi Dawn,

You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it.

You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for  Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this.

It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place.  You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology.

We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto.

If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority.   Do I understand you correctly?

I just think you have your timeline a little skewed.  Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel  must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"?

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church.

You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism.   That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps.   Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism.

The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement.

Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice?

                                                         randy

Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine.

Dawn,

I wasnt slamming your belief. I simply would like, as I have asked...for you to lay the scriptural foundation for your belief. Thats all.

I could explain to you in detail about what we believe concerning it...but, you already are well versed in it.

Randy, I have no idea what LDS believe regarding Zion or their view of the entimes timeline, etc. I have tried to engage some in this topic at least twice in the last year, or so, but it must not be a topic people are highly interested in, which is interesting to me as it is the focus of the RLDS thoughts. So, I am up in the air as to what you believe.

I am interested in what you believe and the restorationists as a whole.  I know that this belief of yours is your own opinion...not shared by many others of the Restorationist camp.

Share with us if you will, the verse that teaches you that there will be baptisms of resurrected beings during the 1000 yrs.  If you have a scriptural basis for what you believe then we can continue.

I understand when you say you cant believe in Baptism for the Dead because that would be somewhat akin to admitting that the RLDS church has been wrong all this time...and you put yourself in a position of bowing to "big brother" ie; the LDS church...which I know you would rather have hot pokers ran through your eyes before you admit such a thing.

The truth of the matter is...regardless of what you label it...is that Baptism for the Dead, whether it is done by proxy before the resurrection or as resurrected beings after the resurrection....is necessary. 

Although we do not believe baptism's will be performed by resurrected beings, your personal belief on this subject betrays your time honored RLDS belief that Baptism for the Dead is not necessary, or that it has never been part of the gospel plan. 

                                                    randy

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you understand why I can't say I believe in BftD because that would be admitting something. I have never made any comment that sounded anything like that. I just don't believe it is necessary.

Maybe later this evening, I can point to just why I believe what I believe. Mabye in the meantime, you can expound on your beliefs regarding Zion and how the scriptures in Section 76 fit into your belief.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 7 2005, 08:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 7 2005, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 06:51 AM

Hi Dawn,

You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it.

You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for  Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this.

It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place.  You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology.

We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto.

If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority.   Do I understand you correctly?

I just think you have your timeline a little skewed.  Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel  must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"?

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church.

You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism.   That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps.   Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism.

The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement.

Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice?

                                                         randy

Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine.

Dawn,

I just read and re-read LDS D&C 76 and for the life of me I cannot see where you are getting that baptisms could be performed after the resurrection of the Just.

LDS D&C 76:50-52 states:

"And again we bear record---for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just-----

They are they who have "received" (note past tense) the testimony of Jesus, and "believed" (past tense) on his name and were "baptized" (past tense) after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given----

That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power......"

So, it seems to me to be perfectly clear just from this passage alone that those who choose to accept the gospel in the spirit world, and having been baptized by proxy.... will have done so "prior to" the resurrection of the Just. It only makes sense.

The Prophet Joseph went to extraordinary lengthes to teach and expound on this doctrine to the saints while he was alive. He made it clear on where, how, when and why we practice this doctrine.

I am hopeful when I see others of the RLDS/Restorationists.... when they speak of this doctrine....even though there is much confusion concerning it...that they are beginning to see the necessity of Baptism, whether in this life or in the spirit world...where they will be taught the gospel..if they did not have that opportunity in this life. That is good to see.

The thought also occurs to me....Dawn...do you believe that all males who enter the Celestial Kingdom...in addition to baptism....must also have been ordained to the MP as clearly set forth in D&C 76:57 (LDS)?

Dawn, their are two resurrections which await us here on earth.

1) The First Resurrection, or the Resurrection of the Just

2) The Second Resurrection, or the Resurrection of Damnation or Resurrection of the Unjust.

I submit to you..that even within these two separate resurrections, there is an order in which the dead will come forth.

Those coming forth in the "morning" of the First Resurrection will be those who shall receive a Celestial glory. (D&C 29:13 43:18 76:50-70 88:97-98)

Then "And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh". (D&C 88:99) This is the "afternoon" of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just. This takes place after the Lord has ushered in the Millennium.

Those coming forth at that time...come forth with Terrestial bodies...and are destined to inherit a Terrestial Kingdom. (LDS D&C 76:71-80)

So...it is clear that at the time of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just, a partial judgement will have already been made....how else could they receive either their Celestial or Terrestial bodies? This "partial judgement" if you will, will be based upon their acceptance or lack thereof, of the Restored Gospel and their having received and accepted the baptism performed on their behalf.

Then at the appointed hour...the Final Judgement will be made...and those who have already been resurrected will enter the Kingdom of Glory which their bodies can endure.

randy

[Jenda]

Randy, you are not focusing on the fact that the resurrection of the just occurs during the Zionic reign. It includes both those eligible for Celestial, as well as Terrestrial, glory. Section 76, in that section of it, is talking about the glories, though, not what will happen during Zion. By the time one gets to the final judgment (and then on to the glories), yes, everything will have had to have been completed. But Zion is just .............. Zion. It is real life, the only difference is that Christ will be living on earth with us. Life will go on as normal. People will be coming to Christ and being baptized every day. Why do you think otherwise?

[john doe]

JD what is the significance of your Kurt Russel avatar " Escape from LA?"

I couldn't find an avatar in the archives from "Escape from New York", which was a much better movie than "Escape from LA". If you find one, would you let me know?

[Blessed]

Randy,

Simply put... we do not believe or practice in Baptism of the Dead.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 04:48 PM

Randy, you are not focusing on the fact that the resurrection of the just occurs during the Zionic reign. It includes both those eligible for Celestial, as well as Terrestrial, glory. Section 76, in that section of it, is talking about the glories, though, not what will happen during Zion. By the time one gets to the final judgment (and then on to the glories), yes, everything will have had to have been completed. But Zion is just .............. Zion. It is real life, the only difference is that Christ will be living on earth with us. Life will go on as normal. People will be coming to Christ and being baptized every day. Why do you think otherwise?

Dawn,

During the millennium we will be blessed by the ministry of resurrected beings. These are they who are spoken of in D&C 76 as coming forth in the morning of the First Resurrection.

Those on earth who are righteous ie; living at least a terrestial law will be able to endure the Second Coming of the Lord. They will live to be the "age of a tree" and they shall be changed from mortality to immortality in a "twinkling of an eye". Their bodies will not "lie in the ground".

Those who are able to endure the Second Coming...both members and non-members will still eat, drink, work, play, go to church, believe in their own God etc. However, during the millennium the Lord shall use the forces of nature to help in turning people's hearts toward the truth.

Not all people who have died will be resurrected at the Lord's Second Coming. This is where I think you get confused. Although during the Millennium...missionary work..both on this side of the veil, as well as in the spirit world....shall be the great work of those 1000yrs. Those who are resurrected will have already accepted the gospel and would have been baptized..either in life on their own behalf, or after death...performed by proxy in the Temple.

It will be during this time that those who are living on earth shall be assisted in a most miraclous way from Resurrected beings with respect to "connecting all the links of the chains" when it comes to gaining the information needed in performing all the Temple work necessary.

Temple work will be THE most important work that will be performed during the Millennium. IMO.

So....those who are resurrected at the ushering in of the Millinnium, will be those who have already accepted the gospel and who have already been baptized. Those other spirits who are still in the spirit world...will yet be ministered to and taught the restored gospel...and will need to have their baptisms performed by proxy in the Temple of the Lord....so they can be judged "according to men in the flesh".

So..this missionary work will be a two pronged effort...those still living on earth at the time of the Lord's return, and those in the spirit world who did not come forth in the "morning of the first resurrection".

Those resurrected beings who did come forth at the time of the Second Coming will be assisting us here on earth in a variety of ways!!

During the Millennium...missionary work on both sides of the veil will be pretty much seamless and very much accelerated because of the help received from those on the other side.

randy

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Blessed@Mar 7 2005, 05:05 PM

Randy,

Simply put... we do not believe or practice in Baptism of the Dead.

Hi Tamara,

Yes...I understand the CoC do not believe in the practice of Baptism for the Dead as it is practiced in the LDS church, however do you believe Baptism is necessary for ALL who desire to enter the Celestial Kingdom?

randy

[Jenda]

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died. If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 05:45 PM

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died. If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

Dawn,

Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just?

I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you?

Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well?

randy

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Mar 7 2005, 04:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Mar 7 2005, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 05:45 PM

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died.  If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

Dawn,

Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just?

I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you?

Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well?

randy

I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just.

I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 7 2005, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 7 2005, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 04:57 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 05:45 PM

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died.  If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

Dawn,

Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just?

I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you?

Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well?

randy

I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just.

I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no.

Dawn,

We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary.

You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly?

Explain to me what you believe it is saying.

Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just:

"And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son."

Is this not the MP that is being referenced?

randy

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 05:32 PM

Dawn,

We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary.

You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly?

Explain to me what you believe it is saying.

Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just:

"And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son."

Is this not the MP that is being referenced?

randy

OK, one more time, for the record..................

The people in the spiritprison are being taught about Christ now. They have the chance to accept or deny Christ.

The Resurrection of the Just will occur during Zion, which is the Millenium.

Those who are eligible for both Celestial glory and Terrestrial glory will arise in the Resurrection of the Just.

They will live here on earth for 1000 years with Christ.

Those who are not eligible for the Resurrection of the Just will not arise until the Resurrection of the Unjust (final judgment.)

Those who accepted Christ in the spiritprison will have the opportunity during Zion to be baptized.

At the end of the Millenium Satan is loosed for a short period.

Then comes the final resurrection and final judgment, and everyone will pass to the glories they have inherited.

Those who will inherit Celestial glory will have already been baptized either when they were alive (prior to death), having not rejected the gospel, or they will have been baptized during Zion after having heard about Christ and accepted Him in the spiritprison.

There is no requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just since those who are eligible for the Terrestrial glory are eligible to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. There is a requirement to be baptized to enter Celestial Glory. Those who have resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just who have not been baptized will have the opportunity to be baptized during the millenium (Zion).

Is it still not clear what I believe?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Mar 7 2005, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Mar 7 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by -Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 04:57 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 7 2005, 05:45 PM

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died.  If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

Dawn,

Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just?

I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you?

Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well?

randy

I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just.

I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no.

Dawn,

We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary.

You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly?

Explain to me what you believe it is saying.

Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just:

"And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son."

Is this not the MP that is being referenced?

randy

Randy, you cannot look at an isolated scripture in that section because the eligibility goes on for several verses. It states that those eligible for both Celestial Glory and Terrestrial Glory are to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. That one verse is only the requirement for Celestial Glory. You have to go down further to see the requirements for Terrestrial Glory.

So, are you implying that only MP members will be in Celestial Glory?

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Mar 7 2005, 07:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Mar 7 2005, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Mar 7 2005, 05:32 PM

Dawn,

We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized.  You seem to be reversing your course.  On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period.  In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just.  So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary.

You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly?

Explain to me what you believe it is saying.

Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just:

"And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son."

Is this not the MP that is being referenced? 

                                                randy

OK, one more time, for the record..................

The people in the spiritprison are being taught about Christ now. They have the chance to accept or deny Christ.

The Resurrection of the Just will occur during Zion, which is the Millenium.

Those who are eligible for both Celestial glory and Terrestrial glory will arise in the Resurrection of the Just.

They will live here on earth for 1000 years with Christ.

Those who are not eligible for the Resurrection of the Just will not arise until the Resurrection of the Unjust (final judgment.)

Those who accepted Christ in the spiritprison will have the opportunity during Zion to be baptized.

At the end of the Millenium Satan is loosed for a short period.

Then comes the final resurrection and final judgment, and everyone will pass to the glories they have inherited.

Those who will inherit Celestial glory will have already been baptized either when they were alive (prior to death), having not rejected the gospel, or they will have been baptized during Zion after having heard about Christ and accepted Him in the spiritprison.

There is no requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just since those who are eligible for the Terrestrial glory are eligible to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. There is a requirement to be baptized to enter Celestial Glory. Those who have resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just who have not been baptized will have the opportunity to be baptized during the millenium (Zion).

Is it still not clear what I believe?

Dawn,

Whew! It took you awhile..but you finally put it out on the table. Now I have something concrete to go on. In the future you could save us some time and spell stuff out the first time. Its like pulling teeth to get you to spill the beans!

I dont have time to respond right now...but I have much to respond to.

Oh...and that was a pretty tacky remark you made on the other board about the CoC being just like the LDS...regarding their nomination of Pres. Veazy to be their new President. That was a cheap shot..and very much beneath you!

You know better than that. Truth is....there isn't anyone they could have selected other than Wallace B. Smith that would have satisfied you or the Restorationists.

So...with this selection...do you feel the CoC is now in complete apostacy? You have made the comment before that you felt the CoC was, for lack of a better phrase...in "partial apostacy". Does this seal the deal for you? Are you going to continue to attend the CoC church or are you going to take a stand and leave and come to Independence?

randy