Infinite atonement

[ninjormon]

Quote:1

Christ atonement covered all worlds created by Our Heavenly Father.

Quote:2

Yes, even though it actually was Christ that created them, but by the power of Heavenly Father

I have to say that I dont agree with this, Christ came to live on this earth and atone for the sins of those on this earth only. Other than sins (which we will be forgiven for) and the earth itself and everything that has dewlled on it (which will return to paradisical glory) what else would it cover?

[tubaloth]

Christ came to live on this earth and atone for the sins of those on this earth only.

This is the other side of the coin, that each world (that Heavenly Father created) had there own Savior. But I thought we were past this idea.

1. I assume you do believe that Heavenly Father created more then one world?

2. That Jesus Christ created at least our world, and all the worlds that Heavenly Father had?

(Doctrine and Covenants 76:23-24.)

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

(Moses 1:32-33.)

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

So it was through Christ that all of God’s works were created. Even to worlds with out number (we couldn’t comprehend it).

Joseph Smith, in a poem version of Section 76 teaches this

For the Lord he is God, and his life never ends,

And besides him there ne’er was a Saviour of men. …

He’s the Saviour, and only begotten of God—

By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,

Even all that career in the heavens so broad,

Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,

Are sav’d by the very same Saviour of ours;

And, of course, are begotten God’s daughters and sons,

By the very same truths, and the very same pow’rs.”

(Times and Seasons 4:82–85.)

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

Other than sins (which we will be forgiven for) and the earth itself and everything that has dewlled on it (which will return to paradisical glory) what else would it cover?

The Atonement covers all that was effected by the Fall. Pains, sicknesses, death and really every mortal condition. The reason the earth can return to paradisiacal glory (the way it was with Adam and Eve) is because of the Atonement, all is over come. But the point isn’t that it covers more, but that it covers this for all of God’s creations and all of God’s worlds.

But the problem is, we know that Christ was the only savior, but other areas are not as clear. Was there only one Fall? (probably not) Is there only one Satan? Those we don’t know!

[mikbone]

Elohim Created/creates Spiritually (he probably created physically some time in the past)

Jehovah Created Physically (so far)

Elohim is the Architech, and Jehovah is the Carpenter.

Agreed?

Now to dive into conjecture...

We don't know how much Jehovah created physically. Could have been...

All physical matter that is

The entire known Universe

Our Local Cluster of galaxies

The Milky Way Galaxy

An arm of the Milky Way Galaxy

A local cluster of stars

The Sun and its sattelites

Elohim on the other hand created spiritually. Or he created the template from which Jehovah created physically. If an architech creates a plan, any number of carpenters can use that plan and created the same structure in a different location if they follow the plans correctly.

I suspect that Elohim has other children like Jehovah that were begotten, and that they are now fulfilling a role that is similar to that which Jehovah is currently undertaking. If so, we never have had contact with them, and from our point of view. Jehovah is the only begotten son of the Father.

If the above assumption is correct, and I'm not stating that it is correct.

Then Jehovah's atonement does not cover all of Elohim's creations. It only covers all of Jehovah's physical creations.

This would also explain why when Elohim does appear, that he basically makes the same statement. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Elohim is a VERY busy man.

Edited April 29, 2009 by mikbone

[deseretgov]

To his own Relm of Creation. Heavenly Father's influence isn't part of other God's worlds. Why would they be?

So which worlds do you think are in Heavenly Father's influence? I'm talking about locations not just generic. Just our Earth? Our Solar System? Our Galaxy? Can we look up into the night sky and see the creations of other gods?

Elohim on the other hand created spiritually. Or he created the template from which Jehovah created physically. If an architech creates a plan, any number of carpenters can use that plan and created the same structure in a different location if they follow the plans correctly.

I suspect that Elohim has other children like Jehovah that were begotten, and that they are now fulfilling a role that is similar to that which Jehovah is currently undertaking. If so, we never have had contact with them, and from our point of view. Jehovah is the only begotten son of the Father.

If the above assumption is correct, and I'm not stating that it is correct.

Then Jehovah's atonement does not cover all of Elohim's creations. It only covers all of Jehovah's physical creations.

This would also explain why when Elohim does appear, that he basically makes the same statement. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Elohim is a VERY busy man.

So then if I was able to travel to a planet outside of Jehovah's influence I would have another Saviour I could choose from, depending on which planet I settled?

Edited April 29, 2009 by deseretgov

[Justice]

This is getting deeper and deeper, and we keep mving forward. I don't think it's a big deal we dont all agree, but maybe we should talk about where we disagree for a bit before we move past it?

I'm of the opinion that Jehova created everything in this eternity, and His atonement applies to all of these creations. I think that is key. The trick is to understand how God defines eternity. I think we might be surprised to learn it's not the same as many believe.

[tubaloth]

So which worlds do you think are in Heavenly Father's influence? I'm talking about locations not just generic. Just our Earth? Our Solar System? Our Galaxy? Can we look up into the night sky and see the creations of other gods?

Who knows? There is no way to tell. Are the stars I see only from Heavenly Father, or are they all bunched together. I have to assume that part of creationg of this earth was also the Solar System, which leads to at least the Galaxy. But it very well could be down to first come first serve. If one God wants a section of space, they get it. Who knows.

[Justice]

A couple of things to keep in mind also, are that some of the individual lights we see in the night sky aren't stars or planets, but the light from a galaxy. In many cases, one light represents clusters of galaxies. Most of these lights we see are from thousands or millions of years ago, depending on how far away they are.

[mikbone]

So then if I was able to travel to a planet outside of Jehovah's influence I would have another Saviour I could choose from, depending on which planet I settled?

LOL, nice mental exercise.

1) The chance of us coming to a scientific level where we could travel to another solar systems, prior to the second coming is in my opinion zero.

2) Jehovah is your Savior. Even if you were to pass through a worm hole and travel to the other side of the known universe and land in a habitable planet, you have no connection with those people. You agreed in our pre-existence that Jehovah would be your Savior.

3) A point of interest is that astronomers have evidence that there are Galaxies that are currently in collision. If a single God was steward of each Galaxy, would this cause havoc? Interestingly, these scientist also believe that although these Galaxies are passing through the same space, the likely hood that any stars would actually collide is almost zero, because they are mostly empty space. Go figure.

[Justice]

Sounds like atoms, too. You know the desk your computer is sitting on feels solid, but it's 99% nothing, really.

:)

[Hemidakota]

Our stake president just spoke on this topic on Sunday.

Here are his thoughts summarized.

We do know, because we've been told that the atonement is infinite. It will fill every space, it will be availabe for every living thing. We know from the scriptures that everything was created spritually before it was created on earth.. This includes Adam, Eve, the trees, birds, animals. Every single living thing was planned and created spiritually first. So when Adam introduced mortality, he did so not only to humans but also to the other living things. The atonment is infinite in that it makes possible a ressurection for all things.

This kinda gave me a "whoah..." moment. But upon praying on it and looking through some scriptures - creation, etc... It is an inspiring thought.

Seeing our academic level of society today, he needed to be more specific in what constitutes space or area. Space refer too here is mentioning this Earth only.

[Hemidakota]

LOL, nice mental exercise.

1) The chance of us coming to a scientific level where we could travel to another solar systems, prior to the second coming is in my opinion zero.

2) Jehovah is your Savior. Even if you were to pass through a worm hole and travel to the other side of the known universe and land in a habitable planet, you have no connection with those people. You agreed in our pre-existence that Jehovah would be your Savior.

3) A point of interest is that astronomers have evidence that there are Galaxies that are currently in collision. If a single God was steward of each Galaxy, would this cause havoc? Interestingly, these scientist also believe that although these Galaxies are passing through the same space, the likely hood that any stars would actually collide is almost zero, because they are mostly empty space. Go figure.

Excellent answers.

[Hemidakota]

To remind everyone the term 'infinite atonement' is not found in the Bible but mentioned four times in the Book of Mormon. Perhaps, someone could elaborate why Lehi used the word INFINITE vice just saying ATONEMENT. Atonement is mentioned one time in the New Testament and sixty-nine times in the Old Testament.

[heatwaveo8]

To his own Relm of Creation. Heavenly Father's influence isn't part of other God's worlds. Why would they be?

Same! Christ's atonement reachs as far as Heavenly Fathers power does. Or to all of Heavenly Father's creation.

Yes, even though it actually was Christ that created them, but by the power of Heavenly Father.

We well follow the plan of salvation and call a Savior for all of our children.

The atonement covers all worlds that have been organized by the hand of Jesus Christ, and the inhabitants of them. Whether there are other Saviors in Heavenly Father's realm is not important to know, since Christ is our Savior, and Him alone.