atonement paradox

[mikbone]

Do you hold a temple recommend?

Yeah, and I've studied this atonement paradox question at length since I ran into the brick wall back in 1988 in a southern Chilean town.

The Holy Ghost is a God. He is obviously ahead of us in the path of progression. Adam was not a God. He passed through a mortal probation just like us. He had to partake of the ordinances and experienced sin and the benefit of the atonement.

Edited May 1, 2009 by mikbone

[Hemidakota]

Remember who was in the presence of the FATHER before the earth was created?

[mikbone]

Remember who was in the presence of the FATHER before the earth was created?

Sure.

We were all in the presence of the Father. We all assisted in the creation of the Physical Earth. Adam is the best and brightest among our family and he represents us.

Edited May 1, 2009 by mikbone
Spelling

[tubaloth]

I submit that the exaltation of man more likely works like this.

a -> b -> c -> A -> B -> C

Comments?

I see it a little different.

Heavenly Father has all power. To perform the work Heavenly Has, he fills two callings, Holy Ghost and Savior/Reedmer.

These are picked and given that power, part of the calling is being a member of the God head. So they are a God, but not in the same way Heavenly Father is a God. Jesus Christ had no power himself until after he passed through mortal life. (Section 93 talks about Christ not reciving a fulness until after he grew from Grace to grace.)

So even though Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are a God (have power) there power is given to them by Heavenly Father.

I have to assume the same thing will happen with the Holy Ghost. I don't see the Holy Ghost having any power himself, only what he is called to do, and use.

From your case, I would go through probation, and then become a holy ghost? I'm assuming that is before I'm ressurected? And then Come back to an earth again to be a savior? Theres some holes in that idea.

Edited May 1, 2009 by tubaloth

[mikbone]

From your case, I would go through probation, and then become a holy ghost? I'm assuming that is before I'm ressurected? And then Come back to an earth again to be a savior? Theres some holes in that idea.

You would have to enter into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and become resurrected first. Then you have to go to school and learn LOTS. When you have reached a level of competence then you get the opportunity to embark on the Holy Ghost trial. Then you Learn again. Only when you reach the next level of competence do you then get to try the Savior trial.

There are obvious "holes" to this scenario, namely a body. But this can be circumvented.

[mikbone]

If we are indeed going to follow in the path that our fathers tread. Then it might be better to understand our futures by looking at the past.

Let us imagine...

A time long ago when Elohim was passing thru his estate of a savior on the planet Kolob.

Jehovah was a mortal man like you and I on Kolob. He sinned, repented, partook of Elohim's atonement, and all of the saving ordinances. He died and was resurrected into the Celestial Kingdom and became a member of the Church of the Firstborn. What would this have accomplished

1) He is married, and had no reason to have a romantic relationship while on our Earth.

2) He has been tempered against sin.

3) He now knows how to resurrect himself.

So, he then continues to learn everything (LOTS & LOTS of schooling), and finally when he and his wife are ready, they ask Elohim to start creating Spirit Children for them so that they can continue to progress. If this happened this way then it explains...

4) Why Jehovah was the firstborn. Its not his position of birth. Although he was there before the first of Elohim's spirit children (destined to be in our pre-existence) was created. Jehovah is the firstborn because he is the firstborn.

5) Why Jehovah was more intelligent than all of us combined during our pre-existence

6) Why in our pre-existence, He was the one that was like unto God.

7) Why Jehovah was God.

8) Why Jehovah was aware of Father's Plan of Salvation and why He volunteered to fill the position of savior.

9) Why Jehovah was able to create the Earth Physically. And by the way, this would also allow Jehovah and his Wife to be the biologic parents of Adam and Eve's physical bodies.

And If Jehovah was the Father of Adam and Eve's physical bodies... Then it stands to reason that Elohim was the Biologic father of Jehovah's physical body. Thus Jehovah is the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh.

Edited May 1, 2009 by mikbone

[Justice]

Study Alma 43 and 44, Mikbone. Remember they use Zerahemna and Moroni as Lucifer and Jehova.

And, I think you need to ponder more on who the Anti-Nephi-Lehis represent.

There were 3 sides in the pre-mortal war.

1. Those who believed we needed a mortal probation where we could exercise agency to be perfected, hence the need for a Redeemer.

2. Those who did not believe we needed a mortal probation, and believed we could be shown evil but withheld from it, hence no need for a Redeemer, but a need for a king to make us choose a certain way.

3. ?

I don't believe the 3rd group spoken of in the pre-mortal existence were those who did not or could not choose. I believe it was a different "thing" that set them apart, other than not making a choice. They are represented by the Anti-Nephi-Lehis in Alma 43.

Alma 43:

11 Yea, and they also knew the extreme hatred of the Lamanites towards their brethren, who were the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi, who were called the people of Ammon—and they would not take up arms, yea, they had entered into a covenant and they would not break it—therefore, if they should fall into the hands of the Lamanites they would be destroyed.

We talked about this a little in PMs Mik, but I'd like to discuss it in a broad way here.

Break this scripture down. Look very carefully at the individual "given facts" about the Anti-Nephi-Lehis in this verse:

The "Lamanites" held an extreme hatred for them. It seems to me if they were "fence riders" the "Lamanites" wouldn't have felt quite so intense.

They made a covenant to not take up arms, or participate in the war. This is curious to me also. This seems more like people who have already made their mind up, and even made a covenant, to side with Jehova. It almost looks like they couldn't fight for some reason because it says if the "Lamanites" went against them they would destroy them.

I think the 3rd group was those who had already been "born again." Therefore they could not participate in the fight. All they needed from this life was a physical body, and them BAM, Celestial Kingdom. They were already under a covenant. The noble and great ones may have been included in this group, but I believe it was mostly made up of those who never arrive at the age or mind of accountability. They did not need tested with right and wrong.

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

"These" includes you and I. I believe the 3rd group was under covenant not to participate in the war, or had already made a choice above the choice we made, so that they did not need to dwell on earth, other to gain a body. Now, as I said, some of them may have been asked or chosen to take great roles to help us. However, for the most part, they get a body and never understand good and evil because they either already understood it, somehow, or progressed beyond the need for the test.

Now, plug this into this discussion, and see where it leads.

We can be "born again" or make and keep this covenant in any of the 3 stages of existence.

1. pre-earth

2. earth

3. post-earth (this is why we do temple work).

However, it must be done before the resurrection and restoration (Alma 32).

[Justice]

4) Why Jehovah was the firstborn. Its not his position of birth. Although he was there before the first of Elohim's spirit children (destined to be in our pre-existence) was created. Jehovah is the firstborn because he is the firstborn.

He was the firstborn in that He was the first who was perfected complete as a reborn soul. He was resurrected and returned perfect to Father in Heaven. He was the first "reborn" in a spiritual sense. This was known from before the foundation of the earth, so He is considered the Firstborn of this eternity... and was deemed so before the world was created.

[mikbone]

I agree. If he did previously go through a mortal probation and gained his exaltation prior to our pre-existence. It sets him apart. He is something special. Firstborn is a good title.

[ldsfireguy]

I do not accept the idea that time does not exist for Heavenly Father, nor do I believe that past and present are as one, continually accessible for Him to interact with. I do believe that he has the power to see all through time, both past and present, so in this sense I guess I could say that I agree with you in part.

I believe that the Father exists as a finite being, with infinite power within the scope of His laws. He has limitations that are defined by His physicality, and by his own laws, which are the laws which existed before even He assumed his exalted station.

For example, He cannot be all places at once - he is not omnipresent. This was a doctrine that was put forth in sectarian Christendom, and it was taught in the Catholic Church where I was raised ... but I believe it to be false. If all time was the same for Him, then He actually could be Omnipresent.

How do you resolve the classic paradox concerning reverse time travel - it would still apply to the Father if He were not subject to any time at all ... what would stop Him from stepping back in time all the way back to when He was a mortal upon an earth, and speaking with Himself? What would stop him from talking with Himself at 50 different points in His mortal life, and advising Himself? Which one of Him would be the "real" one?

If we go down that road, then why could He not talk with His Father, and His Father's Father, during their mortal probations ... and if He were actually talking with them, interacting with them during their mortality, then are they still in Heaven as exalted beings? Are there more than one of them? In fact, if we allow this train of thought, then we have to allow an infinite number of them, one for every moment of their mortal lives.

If God moves in actuality back in time to visit Himself during His own mortality, or earlier, then He goes to a time when He has not yet reached exaltation. So, which is it, is He God or not?

I believe that God does have a forward time movement to his eternal life, and for me this is affirmed by the verse that says that a thousand years in earthly time is like a day on Kolob, which is the closest planet to God's habitation.

I also believe that a time definition is important in understanding God's humanity, or in relating Him to us. His time may seem vast and almost unimaginable to us, but it is in my opinion nevertheless real, and defines His existence as much as our time defines ours.

I do not believe that He can physically go back in time, nor do I think that He can interact with that which is past ... for example, He cannot talk with the "me" from 1985 - because that me no longer exists in any sphere, in any dimension, etc... If that were not so, then there would be an infinite number of "me(s)" for every moment of my past life, accessible to the heavens. I know that this is a popular physics theory, but I just do not think that it is true.

Edited May 2, 2009 by ldsfireguy

[mikbone]

Time is an interesting subject.

From the special theory of relativity we know that time is dependent upon speed. This is a fact.

As you approach the speed of light time slows, and at the speed of light time stops. If we were to move slower time would pass faster for us.

The speed that humans move in space determines how we feel time.

I have thought that a spirit is composed of a type of organized light and if so a spirit does not experience time as we do because a spirit moves at the speed of light thus time as we reckon it does not exist for them.

Gods body is celestial and exalted. We know that blood does not run thru his veins. Some have assumed that a kind of purified light runs his body and thus he also is subject to the laws of physics and does not experience time like we do.

How does he experience time? I have no idea. Is he bound by a time scale that we don't comprehend? Probably.

Edited May 2, 2009 by mikbone

[Justice]

I think our concept of time based on what we see and know. We live in time and therefore we often think there can be no existence without time.

It took me years and years to see how time does not exist to one who will live forever.

God does interact with time, because He creates a place where time exists to exalt His children. But, time is basically created by physical existence. He set the stars, sun, and planets into movement, making a time visible. It is said that He exists in a place where there is a movement as well. So, time can be measured, just not felt.

I think with this subject, as with many, there are different ways to describe the same thing, it just depends on how you look at it. Yes, time exists, because there could be no life without existence. That God exists means that He can measure time. However, time is measured as eternal rounds to him, not seconds, minutes, and hours.

[Hemidakota]

Tom, since last night, I may have to come back to correct my statement on what the term infinite atonement and how latter progression/mortal temple ordinance comes into play. I felt that nudge by you know who and I was quite shocked. It maybe one of those where the Joseph could not teach it in his days.

[mikbone]

You gonna share?

[Hemidakota]

Not now...sorry. I do apologized. There are moments that we need further instruction or more clarity to answer it properly.

[ldsfireguy]

I say this is possible, because the Atonement is infinite in breadth, depth, scope, and time. It saves all the works of the Son -- past, present and future.

I do not think that there is anything in scripture that says that the Atonement is infinite in scope or time. The Atonement is said to be infinite, but what exactly does this mean?

It is an assumption on our part to define exactly what is meant by infinite here; I believe that it means infinite in depth, and infinite in the sense that it completely applies to all the children of men on any and all worlds which our Lord Jesus Christ created.

I say our Christ because there are other Christs, and they have worked out Atonements for their works, for the glory of their Fathers and brothers and sisters. The Atonement of Jesus Christ of Nazareth does not apply to the works of other Creators, nor does it apply to his Father, who was created under the direction of another Creator.

And, in the end, they are all One God, even the God of Israel, even Eloheim.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Tom.

I have never liked Joseph Smith's conclusion in the King Follet discourse. It seems like an unfounded extrapolation to me. The very scripture that Joseph quotes seems to contradict the conclusion:

John 5: 17-23, 26, 30, 36-37, 43, 45

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

...

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Right after saying, "I do nothing that my Father doesn't do," Jesus lists something that He does that the Father doesn't do.

Given this, I'm not sure what significance is appropriate to attribute to this scripture at all.

[mikbone]

I find it interesting that people look at Joseph Smiths Final General Conference Talk and dissmiss it as extrapolation. Personally I agree with B.H. Roberts and recognize the King Follett Discourse as Joseph Smiths Greatest Sermon.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 355, footnote 11

"Accusations were repeatedly being made about this time that President Smith was a fallen prophet. But when the mighty doctrines that in this discourse he is setting forth are taken into account, and the spiritual power with which he is delivering them is reckoned with, no more complete refutation of his being a fallen prophet could be made. The Prophet lived his life in crescendo. From small beginnings, it rose in breadth and power as he neared its close. As a teacher he reached the climax of his career in this discourse. After it there was but one thing more he could do-seal his testimony with his blood. This he did less than three months later. Such is not the manner of life of false prophets. - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts."

According to Joseph Smith in the KFD, and John 5:19, the Savior could only perform the Atonement because he had previously wittnessed Elohim perform a similar Atonement.

Sermon delivered at the funeral of King Follett held at the General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday Afternoon April 7, 1844, Times and Seasons Minutes

"I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before;

it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day;"

If you look at the section that I underlined above. Joseph Smith knew that many of the Saints themselves would not have the perspective to understand the higher truths that we was willing to share with us. I find it a pity that this practice continues today.

We have too many 'wise men' among us.

BTW, this is how Joseph Smith Ends the KFD:

"I have intended my remarks to all; both rich and poor, bond and free, great and small. I have not enmity against any man. I love you all. I am your best friend, and if persons miss their mark, it is their own fault. If I reprove a man and he hates me, he is a fool, for I love all men, especially these my brethren and sisters. I rejoice in bearing the testimony of my aged friends. You never know my heart; no man knows my history; I cannot tell it. I shall never undertake it; if I had not experienced what I have, I should not have known it myself. I never did harm any man since I have been born in the world. My voice is always for peace, I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor any thing to the harm of my fellow man.--- When I am called at the trump of the ark-angel, and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen."

I testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Lord.

Edited June 14, 2009 by mikbone

[Faded]

For all worlds that we need concern ourselves with and for this Universe, the creator of all worlds is Jehovah -- Jesus Christ -- The Son. Insofar as we are aware, all those living on all of the worlds of this Universe receive forgiveness and salvation through the Atonement of the Son, Jehovah, Jesus Christ. Throughout the history of the world, anytime that God speaks to us, he speaks through his Son, Jesus Christ. All of this might tend to lead one to believe that this makes Jesus Christ greater than the Father. The King Follet Discourse, the Bible and a bit of common sense is all you need to understand why this is not true.

The scripture, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever [THE FATHER] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel."

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

Joseph Smith comments as follows on these passages:

"i [Jesus] saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before;it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said."

The point is simple. Jesus Christ is following in the footsteps of his Father in all things. It is not that God the Father cannot create and order all the worlds in the Universe. It is not that he can't Atone for the sins of this Universe. It is not that he can't speak to us directly. The reason he doesn't do all those things is because he already did all of that. Now he's teaching his Firstborn and Only Begotten how to become what he is. It's really as simple as that. We need not concern ourselves all that much with over analyzing the implications of this -- we just need to know and understand that God the Father already did everything the Son does/has done/will do.

[superman]

I'd also like to talk about this business about the atonement being infinite in time. Can somebody please point me to a scripture or LDS reference that says the atonement is infinite in time? Because this is the first I've heard of this. And couldn't infinite only mean endless, but not beginningless? Also, if the atonement is infinite in time, then why did Old testament people and prophets need to make burnt offerings in order to recieve a remission of their sins?

Edited June 15, 2009 by superman