Death without Temple Ordinances

[Luvmikds]

All of your posts have been very helpful! He did, to the best of my knowledge, have a testimony of Christ. I'm sure he is in a state of rest and happiness and I look forward to the day I can see him again.

Luvmikds

[Hemidakota]

As the Savior visited America, He also visited the Isle of Britain according to Joseph Smith:

After details of the conference were discussed, the Brethren shared testimonies. Elder Kimball, who had reviewed the diaries of Heber C. Kimball before traveling to Manchester, told how his grandfather, twice during a certain day while walking near Preston, was so overwhelmed with emotion he had to go to a nearby stream to wash his face. Unable to understand this phenomenon, he later asked Joseph Smith about it. The Prophet told Heber he was emotionally touched because he was in an area where the Savior had walked and taught, an explanation that lends some credence to ancient traditions about the appearance of Jesus Christ in the British Isles.Spencer W. Kimball: Resolute Disciple, Prophet of God by Francis M. Gibbons

[JohnnyRudick]

Did he believe in Jesus. Thats the important part. For people who believe in the Cross it is the power and salvation of God and to those who do not it is foolishness. God Bless, Jim

On this subject I get everyone on my case.

Forgive me if I talk in circles.

I do that sometimes more then others:confused:

No Jim.

It is not the Cross that saves.

It is through the atoning blood shed by the sacrificial Lamb of God.

His death, and resurrection that brings us everlasting Life.

The Cross was a tool that brought Him down.

It was the power of His God hood that raised Him from the grave and brought us with Him.

Belief on Him and life through Him will "save" you.

All "saved" people will testify to others through Baptism that they trust in Him for their Salvation and that He has bought them through His shed Blood.

Baptism shows openly what has already take place.

If that person dies before testifying of this step in his/her life this will be accomplished for the saints on the other side of the Vail through the acts of the living as this is a vital ordinance one must go through if the "saved" one wishes to grow spiritually in their "saved" condition.

That is why we have Temples.

Do you need to rush to baptism if you are "saved"?

You will want to join a church and testify what Christ has done for you.

Hopefully you will wish to join with the Lord's Church but no matter what church you will decide to join, the manner prescribed by God to testify of being bought by Jesus is Baptism.

That is what you will head toward doing.

Weather you achieve it on this side of the Vail or on the other side is still something every "saved" person will want to do.

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 2, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
After thought;-)

[JohnnyRudick]

Thanks for your kind words. I know that in my church. Yes, I actually go to church. We are very much like your church in that we have live and dead members. Just because your go to church does not save you and just because one time in your life you say you believe in Jesus does not make one saved.(I think, I will let God judge that) You must grow in your faith. You must surrender to Jesus. I would say that most religious christians have not done this. They are dead in their faith. When you surrender you tune into the spirit and do Gods will. You no longer are interested in Earthly things. Wealth and possession are of little meaning and the light of God shines through you to do Gods will. I am not sure how I crossed the line to surrendering to Jesus. It just happened one day and I feel very lucky to have found Him. I know that in your church, you also have live and dead members. Some of the posts here are from LDS members who thought they saw the light early in life only to have really found it years later. You see, we are the same, we love Jesus and without Him we are lost. I agree with you, to surrender to Jesus is a very difficult thing for some of us to do. I think pride and some other things get in the way. My mother does not see the light (prayers are welcome) and I am at a lost to find a way to open her eyes. I have learned this in the last month. I don't care about religion. If religion makes you happy then go for it. The LDS (and other religions) are a good place to be if it makes you happy, just make sure you love Jesus with all your heart and soul and give the glory to God always. Do Gods will. This is where I stand and I think it close to what you believe.

We have many who see the Church as a religion comprised of ordinances and activities we must do to in order to "achieve the Celestial Kingdom".

We also have those who Love the Lord and wish to serve Him and will do all that He asks that is in our power to do so.

Serving the Lord is a way of life and would not think of livint any other way.

Not to Do and achieve.

But because we are new creatures in Christ and just love to please Him.

We work not to be "saved" but we work because we are "saved".

But yes, there are those who are "saved" in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in

memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Bro. Rudick

[Jim108]

On this subject I get everyone on my case.

Forgive me if I talk in circles.

I do that sometimes more then others:confused:

No Jim.

It is not the Cross that saves.

It is through the atoning blood shed by the sacrificial Lamb of God.

His death, and resurrection that brings us everlasting Life.

The Cross was a tool that brought Him down.

It was the power of His God hood that raised Him from the grave and brought us with Him.

Belief on Him and life through Him will "save" you.

All "saved" people will testify to others through Baptism that they trust in Him for their Salvation and that He has bought them through His shed Blood.

Baptism shows openly what has already take place.

If that person dies before testifying of this step in his/her life this will be accomplished for the saints on the other side of the Vail through the acts of the living as this is a vital ordinance one must go through if the "saved" one wishes to grow spiritually in their "saved" condition.

That is why we have Temples.

Do you need to rush to baptism if you are "saved"?

You will want to join a church and testify what Christ has done for you.

Hopefully you will wish to join with the Lord's Church but no matter what church you will decide to join, the manner prescribed by God to testify of being bought by Jesus is Baptism.

That is what you will head toward doing.

Weather you achieve it on this side of the Vail or on the other side is still something every "saved" person will want to do.

Bro. Rudick

Johnny, let me reprase my post. I Cor 1:18 "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

Johnny, your argument is not with me. It is with Paul. Good Luck

[JohnnyRudick]

Johnny, let me reprase my post. I Cor 1:18 "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

Johnny, your argument is not with me. It is with Paul. Good Luck

I have no argument with Paul.

Paul and I get along just fine:)

The subject that Paul is talking about (if you follow the rest of his writings) is the message of the cross.

What transpired around it.

The subject is really the "Word".

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that

glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not

with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the

testimony of God.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among

you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know Paul speaks of the "cross" but if you read through it "Jesus" and Him Crucified and Risen is what it is really all about.

I am sure that is what is on your mind also.

It is just that I see this "Image" worn around the necks of the most unsavory people who do not glorify what the cross is pointing to.

The subject for them is the cross as if it was some sort of charm that in itself can bring them safety.

Can you see what I am trying to get at?

If Jesus was shot by a .44 would I wear a pistol around my neck?

Bro. Rudick

[skippy740]

Bro. Rudick,

Jim and I disagree on many things, but we're starting to communicate.

And I for one, agree with you.

But let me defend why they may carry crosses, use crosses on their churches, etc.

Matt 16:24

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

3 Nephi 12:30

For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

D&C 23:6

Behold, I manifest unto you, Joseph Knight, by these words, that you must take up your cross, in the which you must pray vocally before the world as well as in secret, and in your family, and among your friends, and in all places.

D&C 56:2

And he that will not take up his cross and follow me, and keep my commandments, the same shall not be saved.

D&C 112:14

Now, I say unto you, and what I say unto you, I say unto all the Twelve: Arise and gird up your loins, take up your cross, follow me, and feed my sheep.

The Savior Himself references the tool of his death many times - including in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine & Covenants. Granted, we believe in a LIVING Christ and don't wish to be reminded of the cruel way that He gave up His life. The Savior said that "This is the only True and Living Church" - living being the key in why we don't have crosses on our buildings.

But for some, having a physical reminder of what it means to follow Christ (like a cross) may just help them.

We believe in a literal translation of the scriptures... why not a "literal" cross to help remind those who hold it to make good choices?

As Jim says many times... whatever helps you to follow Christ.

Edited May 2, 2009 by skippy740

[Jim108]

I have no argument with Paul.

Paul and I get along just fine:)

The subject that Paul is talking about (if you follow the rest of his writings) is the message of the cross.

What transpired around it.

The subject is really the "Word".

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that

glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not

with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the

testimony of God.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among

you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I know Paul speaks of the "cross" but if you read through it "Jesus" and Him Crucified and Risen is what it is really all about.

I am sure that is what is on your mind also.

It is just that I see this "Image" worn around the necks of the most unsavory people who do not glorify what the cross is pointing to.

The subject for them is the cross as if it was some sort of charm that in itself can bring them safety.

Can you see what I am trying to get at?

If Jesus was shot by a .44 would I wear a pistol around my neck?

Bro. Rudick

I understand your position. The cross to you is nothing more than wood nailed together. For the most part, you are right. But, to the christian, LDS included, it has a deeper meaning....and it is the deeper meaning that we are talking about here. When a christian wears the cross he is expressing that meaning and not the wood shape. I really do think we are on the same page here.

[JohnnyRudick]

I understand your position. The cross to you is nothing more than wood nailed together. For the most part, you are right. But, to the christian, LDS included, it has a deeper meaning....and it is the deeper meaning that we are talking about here. When a christian wears the cross he is expressing that meaning and not the wood shape. I really do think we are on the same page here.

Yes, we really are.

I only wanted to point out a reason many "saved" "Blood bought by Jesus Christ" wish to forgo the tool of His Sacrifice.

I at one time wore a Rosery complete with Crusifix.

But once I understood the deeper understandings of His Sacrifice I made myself give it up.

Also remember what I pointed out as the Cross of Christ is also a charm worn by a growing number of people of whom Jesus the Christ is the last one on their minds.

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Bro. Rudick,

Jim and I disagree on many things, but we're starting to communicate.

And I for one, agree with you.

But let me defend why they may carry crosses, use crosses on their churches, etc.

The Savior Himself references the tool of his death many times - including in the Book of Mormon and in the Doctrine & Covenants. Granted, we believe in a LIVING Christ and don't wish to be reminded of the cruel way that He gave up His life. The Savior said that "This is the only True and Living Church" - living being the key in why we don't have crosses on our buildings.

But for some, having a physical reminder of what it means to follow Christ (like a cross) may just help them.

We believe in a literal translation of the scriptures... why not a "literal" cross to help remind those who hold it to make good choices?

As Jim says many times... whatever helps you to follow Christ.

You understand what your quoted Scripture really means.

And yes, I do understand.

Just trying to (I just spent at least 15 min looking for a smiley called stirthepot or something like that I wantd to use right here;) can't find it. O' well:). . .)

OK:D

Latter;)

Bro. Rudick

[skippy740]

Also remember what I pointed out as the Cross of Christ is also a charm worn by a growing number of people of whom Jesus the Christ is the last one on their minds.

Kinda like the guy on The Mummy (1999) who used numerous religious symbols to try to "save" himself from the mummy?

[JohnnyRudick]

Kinda like the guy on The Mummy (1999) who used numerous religious symbols to try to "save" himself from the mummy?

Yup:)

He had faith.

But faith in faith or faith in an object and even works alone, is misplaced faith.

Jesus Saves. But from there, the rest is up to you.

No, I did not say what some thought I said.

Bro. Rudick