Believe, Works, and Faith

[aj4u]

It is good to understand what others believe about just one word SAVED. Death is what will come upon all. LDS believe that resurrection too will come to all that have lived a mortal life. In one case I am saved from mortal death through Christ, by His resurrection. By His atoning sacrifice I too can be saved from spiritual death.

Ben Raines

It is, however, appointed unto man once to die, then comes the judgment.

Born once you die twice

Born twice you die once

[Jim108]

It is good to understand what others believe about just one word SAVED. Death is what will come upon all. LDS believe that resurrection too will come to all that have lived a mortal life. In one case I am saved from mortal death through Christ, by His resurrection. By His atoning sacrifice I too can be saved from spiritual death.

Ben Raines

"Death is what will come upon all"

Just thought I will throw this in. I think that maybe, the rapture is soon to be at hand. Then some of us will not die at all. Cool to think about.

Sorry for getting off subject, please continue.

[Justice]

The belief in God comes by hearing the Word of God.

Yes. A man cannot believe in God unless he first hears about God.

When the seed of God's word is received in the heart and watered, God is the only one who gives the increase.

I agree with these words, or maybe I'd say God is the only one who can give us the power to increase.

The question I would have is who is responsible for a man receiving God's word into a man's heart? The man or God?

It is God who will finish the work He started in me, but if I choose to trust the works in my own strength, then I won't have God's grace.

I agree with these words. It sounds like you are saying a man must believe in Christ in order to gain eternal life. So, now we need to discuss who is responsible for the belief.

God is responsible for delivering the word of God to man (beginning).

God is responsible for all the works required for man's salvation (end).

What I'm asking about is in between the hearing and the finishing. Does man do anything once he hears and before God finishes him?

In other words, it will be dead works.

What will be dead works?

If we try to work any works ourselves? Like prayer, repentance, visiting the sick, helping the homeless... if we do those things is it God who gives us the desire and is 100% responsible for the "get up and do" also? Or, does a man have to respond to an invitation?

What I do for God in my strength cannot compare to what God does through me in His power. This is the night and day difference I have been trying to communicate with you.

What does the scripture mean you quoted that says He gives us power to become? I'm trying to understand your words and that scripture at the same time. They look like contradictions. Please explain how they are not.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow" Do you hear His voice?

Look, I am trying to understand something about what others believe, namely you. This comment sounds very condescending. I don't know if you think I am genuine in my search to understand your beliefs, but regardless of what you think, I am. I don't understand this comment. It almost sounds like you believe you are speaking from a "I am the prophet and you are the learner" belief. It sounds like you are saying "You have nothing to offer me so you need to listen to me." What did you mean by quoting that scripture? It sounds like you are saying you follow Him and I don't.

Sometimes, if we have an open heart and open mind, God will deliver truth to us from another who He has taught a truth to. If we shut our heart and mind, it is impossible to learn from others, or Him.

[Aesa]

To be saved we must believe in Jesus. (the blood of the lamb) However, we have free will, and most will not come to that conclusion.

Ah, that's an interesting one.

Our free-will is limited by what we're exposed to. What I mean by that is a person will not know a truth unless they are able to realise it (i.e., be told by someone, see it in a film/book, etc). The salvation of others then, by this notion, is as much on your head as it is on theirs.

[JohnnyRudick]

Yes. A man cannot believe in God unless he first hears about God. . .

What will be dead works?

If we try to work any works ourselves? Like prayer, repentance, visiting the sick, helping the homeless... if we do those things is it God who gives us the desire and is 100% responsible for the "get up and do" also? Or, does a man have to respond to an invitation?

What does the scripture mean you quoted that says He gives us power to become? I'm trying to understand your words and that scripture at the same time. They look like contradictions. Please explain how they are not.

Look, I am trying to understand something about what others believe, namely you. This comment sounds very condescending. I don't know if you think I am genuine in my search to understand your beliefs, but regardless of what you think, I am. I don't understand this comment. It almost sounds like you believe you are speaking from a "I am the prophet and you are the learner" belief. It sounds like you are saying "You have nothing to offer me so you need to listen to me." What did you mean by quoting that scripture? It sounds like you are saying you follow Him and I don't.

Sometimes, if we have an open heart and open mind, God will deliver truth to us from another who He has taught a truth to. If we shut our heart and mind, it is impossible to learn from others, or Him.

Not for sure but maybe I can help here.

Well, how I understand the Scripture which applies to all weather you believe the Scripture or not that is:)

The dead works referred to here is if you tryt to do these things to "Get saved" then they are "dead works".

If you do these works because you "are saved" then they are "stones in your crown";)

"Power to become"?

Well, we can't become adopted sons of Jesus Christ on our own.

It is only through the power of Christ that we can become adopted into His Sonship.

Can you through your power become the adopted son of anyone?

No, I think he is just quoting Scripture from God's point of view and just letting the Word stand on it;s own.

That is what I try to do:rolleyes:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Ah, that's an interesting one.

Our free-will is limited by what we're exposed to. What I mean by that is a person will not know a truth unless they are able to realise it (i.e., be told by someone, see it in a film/book, etc). The salvation of others then, by this notion, is as much on your head as it is on theirs.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord

shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have

not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have

not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as

it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the

gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

One of the problems with discussions with other Christians is using terminology they do not use, or using it in a different manner than they do.

"Saved" to a Christian means being saved from hell and entering into heaven. With that terminology, almost all mankind will be saved in the end. The Telestial Kingdom IS heaven and IS a wonderful place (D&C 76), regardless of our focus on exaltation.

No, people will not mourn dwelling in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms because they could have had better. They will rejoice for the heaven they receive, which is exactly the one they want and need. For a Telestial person to dwell in God's glorified presence would be worse than to dwell with the souls in hell (Mormon 9:3-4).

We are saved entirely by grace. Through Christ every single person will be resurrected, and every single person will return to the presence of God (Alma 11, Mormon 9, etc). Now, once we are in God's presence, who we have Become becomes an issue. Are we able to stand with confidence in God's presence (D&C 121), or do we shrink from him and wished the rocks would cover us (Alma 12) so we wouldn't have to suffer in his presence? At that point, many will gladly accept a lesser kingdom, rather than suffer from eternal celestial burnings that are too warm for them.

Works do not save us. Works DO exalt us, or can help to exalt us through Christ, as we become more like him through obedience and faithfulness. So the discussion, when couched in traditional Christian terms, has little merit. We are saved by grace, and receive the amount of grace we diligently seek, as we go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93).

[aj4u]

One of the problems with discussions with other Christians is using terminology they do not use, or using it in a different manner than they do.

Very true

"Saved" to a Christian means being saved from hell and entering into heaven. With that terminology, almost all mankind will be saved in the end. The Telestial Kingdom IS heaven and IS a wonderful place (D&C 76), regardless of our focus on exaltation.

Your definition of saved to a Christian is correct, but the Telestial Kingdom you or speak of sounds like another name for hell. It will not be a comfortable place for anyone ever. To be absent from the body is to be persent with the Lord (that is if you are God's). Who cares about levels if we are present with the Lord? If we are not present with Him, that is hell, outer darkness, the lake of fire and brimstone where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Let's call a spade a spade.

No, people will not mourn dwelling in the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms because they could have had better. They will rejoice for the heaven they receive, which is exactly the one they want and need. For a Telestial person to dwell in God's glorified presence would be worse than to dwell with the souls in hell (Mormon 9:3-4).

I would beg to differ.

We are saved entirely by grace. Through Christ every single person will be resurrected, and every single person will return to the presence of God (Alma 11, Mormon 9, etc). Now, once we are in God's presence, who we have Become becomes an issue. Are we able to stand with confidence in God's presence (D&C 121), or do we shrink from him and wished the rocks would cover us (Alma 12) so we wouldn't have to suffer in his presence? At that point, many will gladly accept a lesser kingdom, rather than suffer from eternal celestial burnings that are too warm for them.

It is true we are saved by grace through faith and that everyone will be resurrected some to everlasting glory and others to everylasting shame. There are no lesser kingdoms. Hell is hell; its is the absences of God's light forever; it is a Christless eternity where there is no joy or peace ever.

Works do not save us. Works DO exalt us, or can help to exalt us through Christ, as we become more like him through obedience and faithfulness. So the discussion, when couched in traditional Christian terms, has little merit. We are saved by grace, and receive the amount of grace we diligently seek, as we go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93).

That is true, works to not save us. I am glad that someone can see that, but our works in our own strength will not exalt us either because they are filthy rags in God's presence.

Is. 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

No, its more like I was worried it might end up like that and I didn't really have the energy for that kind of thing so I was kinda trying go for an agree to disagree thing.

The thing is I'm not talking about tithing, I'm talking about commandment keeping in general. One of my favorite scripture chains (short as it may be) is the scripture you referenced (John 17:3, though I suppose you could have been referencing 1 John 5:20) and the one I quoted (1 John 2:3-4). The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments, I'm not saying that tithing or any commandments of their own accord have any saving power, that lies with Christ. I could keep every commandment perfectly (theoretically of course) and if there was no Christ, no atonement it doesn't get me anywhere.That having been said, Christ has asked us to follow him, if we want to know him we need to do that and part of following him is keeping his commandments.

Now you are making more sense to me. I agree with all except I have a problem with one thing you said: "The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments" This is a big problem not because we shouldn’t keep His commandments. It is the problem that we have to do our best to keep His commandments to know Him. The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort. The point is, it is impossible to live the Christian life by doing our best. Our best doesn't come near a right standing with God; in fact, it drives us further from Him. That is the diabolical trick of Satan. He destroys using religious counterfeits. I know what I am talking about. Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it. Ask God to show you where I am at and not anyone else. Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough. With Him and through Him all things are possible. We don’t get to know God by keeping the commandments and the laws because we cannot do it. We surrender completely to Christ and by faith only through His grace we have the power to be sons and the power to keep from sin and do good works because it is Christ doing it through you. What we do for God is filthy rags, but what Christ does through us is the only thing that is Holy and acceptable to God. If you can only understand this and accept it, you will see a night and day difference in your relationship with Christ.

Referrences:

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[JohnnyRudick]

Now you are making more sense to me. I agree with all except I have a problem with one thing you said: "The net result being if we want to know God we need to be doing our best to keep his commandments" This is a big problem not because we shouldn’t keep His commandments. It is the problem that we have to do our best to keep His commandments to know Him. The fact is, my best will never be good enough nor will any human being's effort. The point is, it is impossible to live the Christian life by doing our best. Our best doesn't come near a right standing with God; in fact, it drives us further from Him. That is the diabolical trick of Satan. He destroys using religious counterfeits. I know what I am talking about. Please trust what I say here, and listen carefully and pray at least about it. Ask God to show you where I am at and not anyone else. Our best will never be good enough but Jesus’ best is always good enough. With Him and through Him all things are possible. We don’t get to know God by keeping the commandments and the laws because we cannot do it. We surrender completely to Christ and by faith only through His grace we have the power to be sons and the power to keep from sin and do good works because it is Christ doing it through you. What we do for God is filthy rags, but what Christ does through us is the only thing that is Holy and acceptable to God. If you can only understand this and accept it, you will see a night and day difference in your relationship with Christ.

Referrences:

Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Tius3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro. 10 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 1:24 And they glorified God in me.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to

will and to do of his good pleasure.

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to

his working, which worketh in me mightily.

But we do work if we are "saved".

Even if it is Him who worketh in and through us.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Galatians 1:24 And they glorified God in me.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to

will and to do of his good pleasure.

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to

his working, which worketh in me mightily.

But we do work if we are "saved".

Even if it is Him who worketh in and through us.

Bro. Rudick

I have said nothing that goes against the Bible referrences you posted. Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us. If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with. Let me put it this way, you are either trusting Christ to get the job done in and through you or you're trusting in your own strength and best efforts (the mighty arm of the flesh) for your right standing with God. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you take? Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

If we have faith and God's grace working in our lives, we will be manifesting good works, but it is possible to do good things for people and not have the faith necessary for our salvation. It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works. If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well. The things I have been sharing regarding works and faith are not my opinions; it is the gospel!

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works.

Works are required...

...for salvation, not to be saved from death, that is a free gift given to all. You don't have to have faith in Christ or have good works (which are near identical statements) to be saved from death.

Thank you, that's all I have been trying to say. I don't know why it was so difficult to arrive at that conclusion. But, what you said here is what I said in the very first post I made to you, you disagreed.

Works are required because Christ commanded them, even showed a perfect example of them then said, "follow me." And, He said if you do not have them He will put us on His left hand.

If He commanded me to do something, I don't know why people think they can ignore what He says and still receive salvation.

It doesn't mean I believe I can work for my salvation. That is Christ's alone. However, He has said if I love Him I will keep His commandments. He commanded me to love others and do good to them, to clothe the naked, to visit the sick, etc.

Yes, if I do them without faith in Christ they profit me nothing.

This is all I have been saying, for 8 or 10 pages of post and you have been saying you disagree, even got a bit frustrated trying to explain to me what I already believed.

If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well.

YES! YES! YES! :)

Edited May 11, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

What I have also said is He enables us, or gives us power, to do greater works than we are capable of ourselves.

That is what the Bible Dictionary said that I quoted, and you said not to trust the source.

I'm very glad we have came to an agreement, because I was about to pull out the heavy guns! I was almost forced to start quoting Book of Mormon prophets and Apostles. They speak these truths more plainly than Bible prophets and Apostles do.

If you don't believe me, I'll post them for you and you can make up your own mind. :)

Edited May 11, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

This doctrine is basic. Rameumptum has given us a few truths a little more deep than these. But, those are for another discussion.

[Guest]

Your definition of saved to a Christian is correct, but the Telestial Kingdom you or speak of sounds like another name for hell. It will not be a comfortable place for anyone ever. To be absent from the body is to be persent with the Lord (that is if you are God's). Who cares about levels if we are present with the Lord? If we are not present with Him, that is hell, outer darkness, the lake of fire and brimstone where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Let's call a spade a spade.

I'm sorry. I am a recent convert (going on 7 years) and in all my lessons I understood that Telestial Kingdom is completely different from Outer Darkness. And Telestial Kingdom is not the same as the Catholic version of hell, Outer Darkness is. And Telestial Kingdom is better than mortal life on Earth.

So yeah, I think not only do we all have a disconnect on the meaning of SAVED, I think we all may have a disconnect on the meaning of HELL as well.

But, in any Christian religion, one thing is common, FAITH in Christ is completely different than BELIEF in Christ.

Say you find the Savior crossing the Niagara Falls on a tightrope pushing a wheelbarrow. Belief in Christ is when you stand on the bank of the river with complete trust and belief that Jesus will make it to the other side.

Faith in Christ is when you jump in the wheelbarrow to go with Him.

[aj4u]

Yes, the wheel barrel is a good analogy. I have heard that before, but to the other stuff I say "whuh????"

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

I'm sorry. I am a recent convert (going on 7 years) and in all my lessons I understood that Telestial Kingdom is completely different from Outer Darkness. And Telestial Kingdom is not the same as the Catholic version of hell, Outer Darkness is. And Telestial Kingdom is better than mortal life on Earth.

You are correct.

anatess, not all who post here are LDS, so not all have the benefit of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants.

So yeah, I think not only do we all have a disconnect on the meaning of SAVED, I think we all may have a disconnect on the meaning of HELL as well.

You are correct here as well.

But, in any Christian religion, one thing is common, FAITH in Christ is completely different than BELIEF in Christ.

I disagree that any Christian religion understands this difference, I know some Christians who believe and teach they are one in the same.

Say you find the Savior crossing the Niagara Falls on a tightrope pushing a wheelbarrow. Belief in Christ is when you stand on the bank of the river with complete trust and belief that Jesus will make it to the other side.

Faith in Christ is when you jump in the wheelbarrow to go with Him.

Interesting analogy for sure, but I get your point that the difference between belief and faith is works.

I'll use my formula again.

Belief + Works = Faith

aj4u, the belief in my formula inferrs belief in Christ, and therefore the works would be done for the love of Christ. This is the same formula you did not like earlier. Maybe perhaps, with some understanding, it's not so bad?

Since it is impossible to have faith without works, it must be this way. Right?

Edited May 11, 2009 by Justice

[aj4u]

Not for sure but maybe I can help here.

Well, how I understand the Scripture which applies to all weather you believe the Scripture or not that is:)

The dead works referred to here is if you tryt to do these things to "Get saved" then they are "dead works".

If you do these works because you "are saved" then they are "stones in your crown";)

"Power to become"?

Well, we can't become adopted sons of Jesus Christ on our own.

It is only through the power of Christ that we can become adopted into His Sonship.

Can you through your power become the adopted son of anyone?

No, I think he is just quoting Scripture from God's point of view and just letting the Word stand on it;s own.

That is what I try to do:rolleyes:

Bro. Rudick

Bless you bless bless you someone understands I am not losing my mind thank you Jesus someone on here can see

[Justice]

It is not possible, however, to have faith and God's grace without good works.

If the good works are absent, faith is absent as well.

Did I misunderstand these quotes?

Saying it is not possible to have faith... without good works, does that not mean you are saying works are required, since faith is required?

I don't get it. Please explain. Because you have quoted me, nearly, word for word in what I have been trying to say.

[aj4u]

You are correct.

anatess, not all who post here are LDS, so not all have the benefit of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants.

You are correct here as well.

I disagree that any Christian religion understands this difference, I know some Christians who believe and teach they are one in the same.

Interesting analogy for sure, but I get your point that the difference between belief and faith is works.

I'll use my formula again.

Belief + Works = Faith

aj4u, the belief in my formula inferrs belief in Christ, and therefore the works would be done for the love of Christ. This is the same formula you did not like earlier. Maybe perhaps, with some understanding, it's not so bad?

Since it is impossible to have faith without works, it must be this way. Right?

I am afraid you haven't really understood the Scriptures on faith and works from the Bible. WADR, it is not about a formula. I understand what your saying and I disagree totally, but you haven't even gotten to the point of understanding what I shared. If you understood and disagree that is another story; therefore, I owe it to you to explain futher until you can at least understand. Please don't think I am patronizing your, because I think there is no one as slow as me. I do admire your tenacity to hang in there. Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

As I had already mentioned Justice, if you review our dialogue I have already answered all your questions. This is your statement:

"I'll use my formula again.

Belief + Works = Faith

aj4u, the belief in my formula inferrs belief in Christ, and therefore the works would be done for the love of Christ. This is the same formula you did not like earlier. Maybe perhaps, with some understanding, it's not so bad?

Since it is impossible to have faith without works, it must be this way. Right?"

This is not correct. The devils believe and tremble at God's Word. There are those who are possesed by devils and believe, and they do or have works or they may not. That does not mean they have faith and God's grace in operation in their lives. Please look at our previous dialogue a little more carefully.

Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Did I misunderstand these quotes?

Saying it is not possible to have faith... without good works, does that not mean you are saying works are required, since faith is required?

I don't get it. Please explain. Because you have quoted me, nearly, word for word in what I have been trying to say.

Yes, I believe you are missing the point. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Our faith has to be in the person of Jesus Christ not in what we do for Him. I am sure you agree that what we have our faith in is significant when it comes to pleasing God. Faith in the Moon, for instance, is not a work of God, but faith in Jesus is pleasing to God. When we have faith and God's grace operating in our lives, good works will be present like where there is smoke, there is fire; where there are webs, there is a spider. If you have a fruit tree that is rooted and grounded in good soil, it is like us rooted and grounded in Christ. The tree will produce fruit because it is a fruit tree that is alive and rooted and grounded in good soil receiving God's water of life. Then we too will bring forth fruit of repentance and good works, BUT we do not get the glory for it. He does because he works through us by faith! Jesus must get the glory because God will not share His glory with another! It is written: "For by grace are ye save through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast!"Ep. 2:8,9 Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

This is a merry-go-round.

I will post 2 of your statements for you. I'm starting to think 2 different people are logging in with your user name.

Here are 2 statements you made. I'll separate it out with how I interpret your comments. You'll have to correct my interpretation.

The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it.

We don't need to do anything for salvation. We don't need to have belif, faith, works, or anything. All we have to do is receive it.

The Bible does says "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" it doesn't say work for it.

So, is this saying we need to have fear and trembling for salvation? Or, is it saying we need to work out our salvation WITH fear [of God] and trembling?

Your interpretation seems to be a contradiction. If you say this scripture is saying "work out your own salvation BY fear and trembling" and yet you say we don't have to do anything for salvation but receive it. Is this fear and trembling required to receive it?

Plus, how can you totally throw out the "you must work out your own salvation" completely out of the scripture?

The spiritual gifts & talents are what God gives in different measures to each of us. We must be faithful stewards of what He has given us.

And, JUST HOW do you go about being a faithful steward? By doing NO WORKS? By burying them in the sand? This is another one of your contadictions. You say God gives the gift and we must be faithful stewards AND we can be faithful stewards WITHOUT doing good works because they aren't required.

Remember He said be faithfull servant not successfull servant!

This makes no sense to me. I would say gaining salvation is a success. So, we must be faithful, but earlier you said all we had to do was receive the gift. Again, I can't understand what you mean by saying 2 opposite things are true.

Both cannot be true. Either we need to be faithful, or all we have to do is receive the gift.

If we have to be faithful (which I thought we agreed on long ago), and works are required for faith, then WE MUST WORK.

If you truly have faith, you will be doing works for God faithfully!

Aye yi yi! Are you serious? You just said we will do works for God if we have faith, meaning if we don't do them we don't have faith?

The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it.

If you truly have faith, you will be doing works for God faithfully!

Am I the only one that sees this as confusing?

So, you interpret these scriptures this way:

1) We need do nothing (no baptism, no commandments, no faith, no belief, no works of any kind)

2) God offers the gift of salvation, all we do is receive it

3) Then we go about working works of God because He saved us (baptism, keep commandments, have faith, believe, have good works)

We are saved before we even believe or have faith?

[Justice]

Our faith has to be in the person of Jesus.

This is a given. Please assume in this discussion each and every time I say faith I mean faith in Jesus Christ. When I say works are required to have faith, please assume those works are done out of love and hope in Jesus Christ, and that is what allows us to have faith.

With this statement I made above, WORKS are required to have faith in Jesus Christ.

We must keep His commandments. When we fall short we must repent.

If we do not show good works then we are as the devils who simply believe Jesus is the Christ.

So:

Belief alone (as the devils) does not equal faith.

If you add good works (because you love Christ) to your belief what does it make?

FAITH!

Belif + works = faith

Now, we need to move on from here, or stop altogether. You keep implying I have said we must add our works to Christs for salvation. I have not said that, I have stated the works of salvation (atonement, crucifixion, resurrection) are His alone.

We do good works because we love Christ. This is faith. Without good works Christ said we do not love Him and cannot show faith.

So, good works are required to love Christ.

It is a commandment to love God and our fellow men.

If we cannot love our fellow men without works (charity), and there is no faith without works, how can we receive the gift of salvation if we do not show works of love for our fellow man?

As you said earlier, it's impossible. So, that means good works will be present in all true believers of Christ. If not, you cannot receive the gift of salvation. That makes good works required for salvation.

When you take away good works from the equation you remove faith. When you remove faith you remove our ability to receive the gift of salvation. It's like dominos.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Justice