Believe, Works, and Faith

[aj4u]

This is a merry-go-round.

I will post 2 of your statements for you. I'm starting to think 2 different people are logging in with your user name.

There is no identity theft on this forum - You are quote mining. Nevertheless, I will address these points. Please note that some understand perfectly what I have written and mean. This is a difficult topic to articulate, but I will do my best for you because I believe you are sincerely trying to understand.

Here are 2 statements you made. I'll separate it out with how I interpret your comments. You'll have to correct my interpretation.

These two statements do not conflict. I said, The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it and the other statement is a Bible verse "work out your own salvation with fear and tremblin." In order to have something to work out you have to first receive it. It is like me sending Justice a gift of a model airplane or a puzzle of a beautiful picture. You have received the gift now you need to work it out and assemble the plane or the puzzle . If, however, you didn't receive the gift, you have nothing to work out or put together. There is a difference between working out and working for something. Do you follow so far?

We don't need to do anything for salvation. We don't need to have belif, faith, works, or anything. All we have to do is receive it.

This what your saying, not me. You just quoted me saying the one thing we have to do is receive it. That is doing something. Isn't it?

So, is this saying we need to have fear and trembling for salvation? Or, is it saying we need to work out our salvation WITH fear [of God] and trembling?

NO, and yes to the last part.

Your interpretation seems to be a contradiction. If you say this scripture is saying "work out your own salvation BY fear and trembling" and yet you say we don't have to do anything for salvation but receive it. Is this fear and trembling required to receive it?

There are No contradictions. Things are not always as they seem!

Plus, how can you totally throw out the "you must work out your own salvation" completely out of the scripture?

I am the one who quoted it. Who is throwing it out?

And, JUST HOW do you go about being a faithful steward? By doing NO WORKS? By burying them in the sand? This is another one of your contadictions. You say God gives the gift and we must be faithful stewards AND we can be faithful stewards WITHOUT doing good works because they aren't required.

Who said anything about me not doing any works?

This makes no sense to me. I would say gaining salvation is a success. So, we must be faithful, but earlier you said all we had to do was receive the gift. Again, I can't understand what you mean by saying 2 opposite things are true.

You would say gaining salvation is a success. I would say it is receiving a gift! Yours implies working for it. How can you work for a gift? I am not saying two opposite things; you are.

Both cannot be true. Either we need to be faithful, or all we have to do is receive the gift.

If we have to be faithful (which I thought we agreed on long ago), and works are required for faith, then WE MUST WORK

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We don't have to work for faith. You really are confused.

Aye yi yi! Are you serious? You just said we will do works for God if we have faith, meaning if we don't do them we don't have faith?

I am dead serious!

Am I the only one that sees this as confusing?

No, but you are one of them!

So, you interpret these scriptures this way:

1) We need do nothing (no baptism, no commandments, no faith, no belief, no works of any kind)

2) God offers the gift of salvation, all we do is receive it

3) Then we go about working works of God because He saved us (baptism, keep commandments, have faith, believe, have good works)

We are saved before we even believe or have faith?

No, that is not what I said. This doesn't have to be a merry-go-round. You are being obtuse! Edited May 11, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I got your response through email, but it doesn't show up on the forum. I kept signing on and off, but no dice. Do you know what's wrong?

[Justice]

I didn't send you a Private Message or e-mail. I'm not sure what that's about.

Your comment:

You have received the gift now you need to work it out and assemble the plane or the puzzle . If, however, you didn't receive the gift, you have nothing to work out or put together.

Yes, and if you don't work to assemle it there will be no plane or puzzle.

That's all I've been saying. THAT work is required.

About the time I think we agree, you say we don't.

If faith is not required before salvation, then James is contradicting himself too, when he says:

James 2:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

He is showing faith by his works. Since faith precedes salvation, then some works MUST as well. He clearly says he will show faith by his works. Was he boasting? Na, He knew who gave him power to work his works.

In either case, we both believe salvation is in Christ. We'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation. I don't think all the works come after you receive the gift. Some must come before, like belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc. In fact, if baptism is the gate, how can it only be for after you receive the gift?

I understand this principle. I am just trying to understand how you believe them. I have more scripture than just the Bible to learn from. The Book of Mormon makes these principles more clear.

[aj4u]

I didn't send you a Private Message or e-mail. I'm not sure what that's about..

I don't understand it either. Maybe, the Lord didn't want it to go through. As you can see it is not posted and you wrote it.

Your comment:I

You have received the gift now you need to work it out and assemble the plane or the puzzle . If, however, you didn't receive the gift, you have nothing to work out or put together.

Yes, and if you don't work to assemle it there will be no plane or puzzle..

That is what you say. You still have the gift in an incomplete form. God is the one who decides your outcome; it's not according to your speculation or interpretation. Everyone is building on Christ. Some are building with gold and silver others with wood hay and stubble. There will be some who suffer loss even though they will be saved yet so as by fire. The big question is did you get the gift? I did, and I am working it out between me and God; moreover, I already know that my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. Do you?

That's all I've been saying. THAT work is required.

About the time I think we agree, you say we don't..

You say we don't as well and now you say we do. I should be the one that is confused with you.

If faith is not required before salvation, then James is contradicting himself too, when he says:

James 2:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have worksou sa: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

He is showing faith by his works. Since faith precedes salvation, then some works MUST as well. He clearly says he will show faith by his works. Was he boasting? Na, He knew who gave him power to work his works..

You are also misunderstanding James. He is not saying you are required to work for your faith or salvation as you have been saying. He is saying that he can prove he has faith with his works. He is saying there is no such thing as faith if there aren't works to back it up. I, for instance, can prove I have faith as well with my works, but I am not teaching or saying we'll be saved or have eternal life after doing all we can along with our best efforts and neither is James.

In either case, we both believe salvation is in Christ. We'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation. I don't think all the works come after you receive the gift. Some must come before, like belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc. In fact, if baptism is the gate, how can it only be for after you receive the gift?.

You're telling me now that you don't understand baptism either.

I understand this principle. I am just trying to understand how you believe them. I have more scripture than just the Bible to learn from. The Book of Mormon makes these principles more clear.

I am sorry, but I would never know that from your comments. I use the Bible as my yard stick, and it does me justice Justice.

Edited May 12, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

We do agree that James knew who gave him the power to do his works

[JohnnyRudick]

I have said nothing that goes against the Bible referrences you posted. Yes, we strive like an athlete to let Christ work through us, but only Christ can finish the work He started in us. If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with. Let me put it this way, you are either trusting Christ to get the job done in and through you or you're trusting in your own strength and best efforts (the mighty arm of the flesh) for your right standing with God. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you take?

Thanks for your post.

Yes, I have answered this post in many of my other posts.

"If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with."

Right, OK, thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

Why do you keep repeating what I say?

I said:

Was he boasting? Na, He knew who gave him power to work his works.

God did not force James to do His works. God did not do them for James. God did not grant James salvation and then James worked. God gave James the power to do them. James had to work out his salvation with fear and trembling until the day he died, relying on the merits of Christ. James worked and God consecrated his works for his gain, and for His gain.

Our differences start at the core. We don't even make it as far as an understanding of "believe" before we interpret differently. I can't understand the words you type because there are too many words you understand differently.

If you tell me that God picks and chooses who He will save and man has no choice, I'll will disagree until the day I die. For what you say to be true, that God gives the gift of salvation before man can do any works, then you're saying God must choose who is given salvation and who isn't, because the man isn't even responsible for belief or faith before His salvation.

You need to learn the difference between the Kingdoms of Glory, and between being saved and receiving salvation. Otherwise, we're talking about different things, with different words, and in complete circles.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Justice

[aj4u]

Thanks for your post.

Yes, I have answered this post in many of my other posts.

"If it is indeed He that started the work to begin with."

Right, OK, thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

Bro Rudick:

I have enjoyed your posts. Thank you for sharing. You have good insight in the Scriptures it seems.

[JohnnyRudick]

There is no identity theft on this forum - You are quote mining. Nevertheless, I will address these points. Please note that some understand perfectly what I have written and mean. This is a difficult topic to articulate, but I will do my best for you because I believe you are sincerely trying to understand.

These two statements do not conflict. I said, The one thing we need to do with the gift of salvation is receive it and the other statement is a Bible verse "work out your own salvation with fear and tremblin." In order to have something to work out you have to first receive it. It is like me sending Justice a gift of a model airplane or a puzzle of a beautiful picture. You have received the gift now you need to work it out and assemble the plane or the puzzle . If, however, you didn't receive the gift, you have nothing to work out or put together. There is a difference between working out and working for something. Do you follow so far?

This what your saying, not me. You just quoted me saying the one thing we have to do is receive it. That is doing something. Isn't it?

NO, and yes to the last part.

There are No contradictions. Things are not always as they seem!

I am the one who quoted it. Who is throwing it out?

Who said anything about me not doing any works?

You would say gaining salvation is a success. I would say it is receiving a gift! Yours implies working for it. How can you work for a gift? I am not saying two opposite things; you are.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We don't have to work for faith. You really are confused.

I am dead serious!

No, but you are one of them!

No, that is not what I said. This doesn't have to be a merry-go-round. You are being obtuse!

I wish this would quote both side of this conversation.

If there was a laugh button I would go crazy with it:roflmbo:

I can hardly type this:lol:

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Bro Rudick:

I have enjoyed your posts. Thank you for sharing. You have good insight in the Scriptures it seems.

I've enjoyed yours as well.

AND Bro. Justice:roflmbo:

You guys have made my day a lot more enjoyable.

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Why do you keep repeating what I say?.

What do you mean?

I said:

Was he boasting? Na, He knew who gave him power to work his works..

I agreed with this. I didn't keep repeating you.

God did not force James to do His works. God did not do them for James. God did not grant James salvation and then James worked. God gave James the power to do them. , and for His gain..

I didn't say that James didn't work out his salvation with fear and trembling until the day he died, relying on the merits of Christ. I said, and have been saying that James didn't work for his gift of salvation, and what he did was not only for his gain, it was for ours too.

Our differences start at the core. ..

This is the first thing you said that I agree with 100%

We don't even make it as far as an understanding of "believe" before we interpret differently. I can't understand the words you type because there are too many words you understand differently..

I gave my understanding of belief and faith and works.

If you tell me that God picks and chooses who He will save and man has no choice, I'll will disagree until the day I die. For what you say to be true, that God gives the gift of salvation before man can do any works, then you're saying God must choose who is given salvation and who isn't, because the man isn't even responsible for belief or faith before His salvation.

You do put words in my mouth. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of truth. Our right standing with God; our salvation; eternal life or the entering of the joy of the Lord depends on us coming to the knowledge of truth. Jesus is the Truth the Life and the Way. I don't believe a person can choose to stop living a sinful life on his own because he is a prisoner and slave to his sin. "Whom the Son sets free is free in deed" The freedom Christ gives is for us to make the right choices in life not do to what we want. All we can do is ask Christ for his mercy. When we receive it, we are free to do good works allowing him to work through us and in us. The problem is there are many people who say they have Christ and the gift he gives that do not. People like that are Christians in name only who have a religious spirit. They have a zeal but not according to knowledge. Nominal Christians can only produce dead works in that state. They need to humble themselves and pray for God's forgiveness and Mercy. Then they can work out their own salvation.

You need to learn the difference between the Kingdoms of Glory, and between being saved and receiving salvation. Otherwise, we're talking about different things, with different words, and in complete circles.

Have you ever ask God in Jesus' name to deliver you from deception? I have and He did. Have you? Edited May 12, 2009 by aj4u

[BenRaines]

Ok, everyone step back and get back on the topic and stop the personal attacks. One warning to anyone, no names named, that is making personal attacks.

If you can not refrain from personal attacks infractions will be issued and time outs.

Ben Raines

[aj4u]

I've enjoyed yours as well.

AND Bro. Justice:roflmbo:

You guys have made my day a lot more enjoyable.

Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

I don't understand why it doesn't show both sides of the dialogue either, other forums do. I know this one can too. Someone needs to program it so. Next time, I'll try to cut and past things together.

[JohnnyRudick]

Ok, everyone step back and get back on the topic and stop the personal attacks. One warning to anyone, no names named, that is making personal attacks.

If you can not refrain from personal attacks infractions will be issued and time outs.

Ben Raines

I'm confused:confused:

I never saw a personal attack by anyone:(

Bro. Rudick

[BenRaines]

Glad you didn't find anything as a personal attack. I did and that was why a warning was given. Names were not named and personal messages were sent.

Thank you,

Ben Raines

[aj4u]

I am taking a big step back to bed. I don't think anyone has attacked me personally on this forum nor do I think I have attacked anyone personally. If I have been attacked or have attacked anyone I would very much like to see where. I think it has been a very good discussion and there is a lot of learning going on. Good night.

[JohnnyRudick]

. . . I don't believe a person can choose to stop living a sinful life on his own because he is a prisoner and slave to his sin. . .

Have you ever ask God in Jesus' name to deliver you from deception? I have and He did. Have you?

There was a time I knew I was living a sinful life and I asked Jesus to come into my heart and work in me to make me a better person.

I knew I was a sinner and I knew I needed to be a part of what He had provided for me.

I do not know if I was "saved" before I decided I needed Christ as a older teen.

I was baptized at least three times prior to this so I knew Salvation was not in the baptism.

Nor in the decision for baptism.

I learned through out many years a lot more then I knew at 19 when I gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I knew I was "saved" at 20.

Yet in time, I learned there is a lot more I was expected to do with the gifts God gave me.

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

There was a time I knew I was living a sinful life and I asked Jesus to come into my heart and work in me to make me a better person.

I knew I was a sinner and I knew I needed to be a part of what He had provided for me.

I do not know if I was "saved" before I decided I needed Christ as a older teen.

I was baptized at least three times prior to this so I knew Salvation was not in the baptism.

Nor in the decision for baptism.

I learned through out many years a lot more then I knew at 19 when I gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I knew I was "saved" at 20.

Yet in time, I learned there is a lot more I was expected to do with the gifts God gave me.

Bro. Rudick

That is very interesting. May I ask what your giftings are and what is your religious persuasion?

I was born and raised Catholic, but I didn't remain Catholic although all my family remains Catholic. They don't understand that I just prefer to identify myself as a simple Christian with no denominational affiliation whatsoever.

I have been involved in a cult; so, I know deception when I see it. I thank God for His deliverance. I am an artist and a musician. I am also a licensed public school teacher.

[aj4u]

I wrote the song Some people for atheist

I wrote Deception for those in religious deception.

Edited May 12, 2009 by aj4u

[Jim108]

There was a time I knew I was living a sinful life and I asked Jesus to come into my heart and work in me to make me a better person.

I knew I was a sinner and I knew I needed to be a part of what He had provided for me.

I do not know if I was "saved" before I decided I needed Christ as a older teen.

I was baptized at least three times prior to this so I knew Salvation was not in the baptism.

Nor in the decision for baptism.

I learned through out many years a lot more then I knew at 19 when I gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I knew I was "saved" at 20.

Yet in time, I learned there is a lot more I was expected to do with the gifts God gave me.

Bro. Rudick

Bro Rudick, thank you for this post.

[aj4u]

Bro Rudick, thank you for this post.

You sent a repeat of your post instead of answering the questions.

[Vort]

Second death is damnation. As in "you are going to hell". This is the destiny for most I am very sad to say.

Why sad? If that's how God created things to be, shouldn't you rejoice in the fact that most of God's created children will burn in an unspeakably nightmarish hell for all eternity?

Just thought of something. When the LDS say they are saved, what are you being saved from?

The second death.

[aj4u]

Hell was not created for people

[aj4u]

An important question is knowing who Jesus is. Who is Jesus to you?

[aj4u]

We each will be judged individually.. based on our life experience... I have a feeling Fahter in Heaven will be much kinder to us than we are to ourselves.

When it comes to matters of the soul, our feelings make a wonderful servant but a very poor leader!

It is written: "My people perish for lack of knowledge" Many people believe in Jesus in different ways; for instance, Muslims believe He is a great prophet but not the Son of God. Cults like Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is the only angel God calls His son. Moreover, there are other Christians that believe that Jesus is a created being.

All Christians build on the foundation of Christ in different ways, but some will receive rewards and some will suffer loss. All will suffer loss, however, regardless of what they do if they don't know who Jesus really is and how to build on the chief corner stone foundation of our eternal souls.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is God in the flesh; He is the creator of every living creature on earth and at all levels and dimensions of heaven. When it comes to knowing Jesus, tithing is the very least of my concerns. To know Christ, NOT ABOUT Him, is to have eternal life! Who is Jesus to you?