Irish Republicans

[Lindy]

I am looking into some history of Ireland and am seeking opinions from anyone who cares to voice an opinion about the Irish Republicans, the Sinn Fein party and the thought of a free Ireland.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 2 2005, 06:30 PM

I am looking into some history of Ireland and am seeking opinions from anyone who cares to voice an opinion about the Irish Republicans, the Sinn Fein party and the thought of a free Ireland.

Boo, hiss pretty much sums up my opinion of Sinn Fein.

[Guest curvette]

Sin Fein's whole terrorist approach makes them unsuitable to govern a country. I'm not sure what they are thinking. Do they think they can just unite with the Republic of Ireland and everything will be rosy? Do they plan on forming an Independent Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland chose back in the 1920's to remain under British control. I think, economically, things would get worse for them if they tried to unite with the rest of Ireland. Not to mention the religious conflicts that would inevitably go from bad to worse in a united Ireland. I guess I don't really understand their vision.

[Lindy]

From what I have seen, the group (Sinn Fein) gave up the fighting approach and is into the peace negotiations. I think that they are just wanting a whole country for their people period; not a country partially ruled by the British. The research I have done reminds me of a some colonists over 200 years ago that wanted to break away from the same ruling. A small group of states looking for justice, freedom and equality. I found that there has been fighting since Henry VIII brought Catholic Ireland under the rule of Protestant England in the mid 1500's. And the religious groups have been at it ever since, with some 30 plus years from the mid 1960's to the late 90's being very troubled times. Off shoot groups from the IRA sprung out when peace talks started in late 90's. There are some of the Irish who don't mind being under Bristish rule, like some of those colonists in the 1700's.

I was discussing the freedom fighters (IRA) and remembered the underground groups who fought for what they believed in here in our country like the Sons of Liberty, who used intimidation and violence to make their point.

Some of these Irishmen are die hard freedom fighters, they will give their lives fighting for the freedom they want for their country. I got into a debate with someone about terrorism, the IRA and freedom fighters...and wanted to know more. I think I found out a lot.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Of course, those who romanticize the IRA usually neglect to mention the IRA's Marxist connections, and that their vision of a united Ireland is as a Celtic Cuba. Or that a majority of the people in Northern Ireland don't want to be united with the South. Or that the IRA, in addition to acting as "freedom fighters" by killing police and unionist activists, also basically acts as a local mafia, with members casually shooting people who disrespect them in bars (which recently just got them into a lot of trouble as the Catholic sisters of a victim of such a shooting are raising a big stink about it).

Sinn Fein is still intimately connected with the IRA, which is still a murderously violent organization. I think it's about as serious about peace negotiations as the PLO, which is to say, not very. And Gerry Adams has a weak chin.

The conflict does go back a long, long way. I'd say it even predates the 1500s; the king of England was made the official overlord of Ireland back in the 1100s. Ireland's independence waxed and waned over the next few centuries, with Henry VII being the first really to exercise much control. Then after the Reformation, Ireland became the base of operations for those British factions that wanted to keep the kingdom Catholic. Oliver Cromwell was particularly nasty in his invasion of Ireland after the royalist factions took refuge there after the Parliamentary side won the English Civil War in 1645.

From the second half of the nineteenth century on, Irish independence was a major issue in British politics. As the century drew to a close, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Ireland would be granted home rule; the only question was how. The majority of people in the six northernmost counties were Protestant and didn't want to be governed by an Irish state, which they believed would be dominated by the Catholic Church (as Ireland has, indeed, been until very recently). It was finally decided to allow the locals to vote on whether they wanted to be independent or not. Most of Ireland voted yes; the northern counties voted no, and the country became a free state in 1922. Then a civil war broke out among the Irish nationalist factions between the moderates who wanted to stop blowing stuff up and get on with the business of governing the counties that wanted to be independent, and the hard-core guys who wanted to keep fighting until they got control of the northern counties which had just indicated that the wanted nothing to do with independence.

The analogy would have been if, in 1783, a civil war had broken out among factions among the American colonists over whether to accept the Treaty of Paris and end the Revolutionary War, or to keep fighting until America conquered Canada, regardless of the Canadians' indicated disinclination to join the United States.

[Lindy]

Thanks PD for info to mull over and add to my various questions, debate ammo., etc. So many questions, so much info...good and bad to sort through.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 4 2005, 11:52 PM

Thanks PD for info to mull over and add to my various questions, debate ammo., etc. So many questions, so much info...good and bad to sort through.

Do you have family in Ireland Lindy? I can see why the Irish (historically) hate the English and would want to be free. Separating themselves at this point though would be a very complex process. Their situation is quite different than the American situation 200 years ago. Northern Ireland is a full province and has representation. Also, the vast majority of Northern Irish want to remain connected to the UK. From a woman's perspective, I personally think that the British are much more progressive than the Irish. I can't imagine why Irish women put up with what they do.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 5 2005, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 5 2005, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Apr 4 2005, 11:52 PM

Thanks PD for info to mull over and add to my various questions, debate ammo., etc.  So many questions, so much info...good and bad to sort through.

Do you have family in Ireland Lindy? I can see why the Irish (historically) hate the English and would want to be free. Separating themselves at this point though would be a very complex process. Their situation is quite different than the American situation 200 years ago. Northern Ireland is a full province and has representation. Also, the vast majority of Northern Irish want to remain connected to the UK. From a woman's perspective, I personally think that the British are much more progressive than the Irish. I can't imagine why Irish women put up with what they do.

Thanks for your honest post curvette, there are some questions I have that I am looking for the answers to, and yes, actually, my paternal ancestors came from Scotland (to) Ireland to Canada. And in reasearching the ancestors who came from Belfast, I got into reading a lot more about some things that caught my attention. I still may have family in Ireland, one of those things I am still researching. I should have stopped myself at one point....but couriosity has driven me deeper into some issues.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Lindy -- If your ancestors went from Scotland to Ireland and lived around Belfast, it's more than likely that your Irish relatives -- third cousins twice removed or whatever -- are of the Unionist persuasion.

[Snow]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 3 2005, 10:49 PM

Some of these Irishmen are die hard freedom fighters, they will give their lives fighting for the freedom they want for their country. I got into a debate with someone about terrorism, the IRA and freedom fighters...and wanted to know more. I think I found out a lot.

Calling the IRA freedom fighters is like calling a rapist a lady's man with a healthy sexual appitite.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 5 2005, 10:30 PM

Calling the IRA freedom fighters is like calling a rapist a lady's man with a healthy sexual appitite.

Is this a thinly veiled confession, Snow?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 5 2005, 10:10 PM

Lindy -- If your ancestors went from Scotland to Ireland and lived around Belfast, it's more than likely that your Irish relatives -- third cousins twice removed or whatever -- are of the Unionist persuasion.

Chances are they were part of the "planting" program that was implemented, I agree... Looks like they settled in Donegal County, (which is further west of Belfast) before they immigrated to Canada.

Calling the IRA freedom fighters is like calling a rapist a lady's man with a healthy sexual appitite.

Snow~

I have no respect for a rapist, healthy sexual appitite or not. I may not agree with some of the things done in the name of political freedom, but I still do have some respect for those who will fight for what they believe in. Some is the key word here. This is not to be construed with any respect for the members of any group who target women, children and civilians. And I am having a hard time trying to understand some of the justifications that both sides have with what they have done to each other. I am really trying to understand the religious aspect along with some human rights issues.

PD~ I think that the INLA has more criminal ties and Marxist connections than the IRA, or the RIRA. Even if the RIRA has been listed as the worst of the splinter groups, I think that the INLA is the worst by far.

And Gerry Adams has asked for a complete disband of the IRA. Going to be very interesting to see where this goes...

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 6 2005, 07:51 PM

And I am having a hard time trying to understand some of the justifications that both sides have with what they have done to each other. I am really trying to understand the religious aspect along with some human rights issues.

It is very hard for Americans or Canadians to understand these issues. It's hard for us in 2005 to look back at the civil rights struggle here that climaxed a mere 40 years ago and understand it. English/Irish (Protestant/Catholic) history goes back many hundreds of years. I think you are smart to study the history in order to understand present attitudes. It's really the only way to begin to see it through their eyes.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 6 2005, 09:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 6 2005, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Apr 6 2005, 07:51 PM

And I am having a hard time trying to understand some of the justifications that both sides have with what they have done to each other.  I am really trying to understand the religious aspect along with some human rights issues. 

It is very hard for Americans or Canadians to understand these issues. It's hard for us in 2005 to look back at the civil rights struggle here that climaxed a mere 40 years ago and understand it. English/Irish (Protestant/Catholic) history goes back many hundreds of years. I think you are smart to study the history in order to understand present attitudes. It's really the only way to begin to see it through their eyes.

You are so right about the civil rights movement Curvette, so many people don't even know close to our era it actually was.

[yaanufs]

I have grown up mixing with many people who in their hearts felt that the IRA were good and the English were bad.

I have listened to their views and their opinions.

My conclusion is that the IRA are scum of the earth and Sinn Fein are the evil, hypocritical, revisionist, political spinning face of violence, intimidation, and murder.

The other side of the political divide don't come out smelling of roses either.

We seem to be stuck in a position not too dissimilar to the "men are from Mars and women are from Venus" situation. Neither side understands the others concerns and issues.

I think I'll write a book and call in "Republicans are from Mars and Unionists are from Venus". It might help their marriage

[Lindy]

One big question I have concerning both religious groups is how do they justify killing each other in the name of "the cause" Does it make it ok killing for a cause? Or retaliation for death? I am seeking to see if they truely think of themselves as a military group acting as such. I can understand military actions, they have to do what they have to do. I hold no grudge against any military personnel doing their job. Maybe things are easier to grasp if I delude myself.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 8 2005, 06:36 PM

Maybe things are easier to grasp if I delude myself.

Senseless things are always easier to grasp if we delude ourselves. At least you admit it! :)

[Lindy]

Originally posted by curvette+Apr 8 2005, 07:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Apr 8 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Apr 8 2005, 06:36 PM

Maybe things are easier to grasp if I delude myself.

Senseless things are always easier to grasp if we delude ourselves. At least you admit it! :)

Thanks for the smile :)

My life is full of delusional reasonings

[Lindy]

Funny~ I have a lot of things on my mind regarding service, missionary work, and what is right, what is wrong. Posting on another thread it all became crystal clear to me, everything for a reason. When we are guided to a different direction in our lives....it's going to be for a good reason. It may be awhile before you figure out the reason and sometimes it's hard not to question or try to analyze why we were sent in a direction we may not have chosen for ourselves.

I've been mulling over what I heard in sacrement meeting yesterday, which was "service to others" and after talking to an old friend last night .....I know that I have to just go with the flow, and try not to drown in the rapids. I guess I'm going to put on my life jacket, hold tightly onto my CTR ring, and jump into the river, knowing that somehow faith will keep me afloat.

I can't keep questioning everything sent my way, and need to rely on faith that I am needed outside my comfort zone. It may sound strange to others, but like I said......ding ......the lights went on, and everything became crystal clear. Everything for a reason.

Thanks to those who let me know what they think, I do value you opinions. :)

[Guest jackvance88]

i think it is disgusting how even some conservative american politicians have at times shown sympathy for the irish republicans. it's an insult to every victim of 911 and the subsequent war on terror.

they're evil, they're murderers, they're terrorists. period.

or else let's entertain the same discussion abou al quaida!

[Lindy]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Apr 14 2005, 02:37 PM

i think it is disgusting how even some conservative american politicians have at times shown sympathy for the irish republicans. it's an insult to every victim of 911 and the subsequent war on terror.

they're evil, they're murderers, they're terrorists. period.

or else let's entertain the same discussion abou al quaida!

Maybe those conservative American politicians have done some research into what the Republicans stand for, and have shown sympathy for good reason.

And you know that growing up, I believed everything said about the Republicans, that they were lower than snake spit, worm droppings, etc. Then I started educating myself on something I didn't know anything about. It started when I was researching family history, and found out that my relatives fought long and hard for what they believed in, in America not too long ago, and in Scotland a very long time ago. I think that there is a vast difference between fighting for your country, and killing people for the sheer act of terrorism.

Al Qaeda..... very bad

Irish Republicans......not so bad after all (IMHO)

[yaanufs]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Apr 15 2005, 11:23 PM

I think that there is a vast difference between fighting for your country, and killing people for the sheer act of terrorism.

Al Qaeda..... very bad

Irish Republicans......not so bad after all (IMHO)

You delude yourself if you think the IRA are fighting for anything other than power, drugs, women, glory, money.

Most of the killings and beatings are over drug territories, protection rackets, prostitution, etc. The IRA have learned the skills well from the Italian Mafia.

It is always possible to put a nice patriotic spin on the whole deal but the truth is not nearly as pleasant. The IRA are evil, they are scum, they are criminals, they are terrorists and they have been heavily supported by US dollars. If such an organisation was active in America you would have no hesitation in labeling it as terror. Just because it happens a few thousand miles away does not make it right.

The fundamental question you have to ask yourself is this. If the two sides of Ireland were united tomorrow would the IRA disband in a real sense?

The answer is no. The mafia type activities would continue and they would still carry out their underground financing activities to keep the leaders living a nice life. The truth is they are much more a criminal gang than freedom fighters and should unification occur, they will still be a criminal gang.

[Lindy]

yaanufs~ thanks for your opinion, everything I read and hear I take in consideration, and think about. Both the bad, and the not so bad. I think you do have a good point,

If such an organisation was active in America you would have no hesitation in labeling it as terror. Just because it happens a few thousand miles away does not make it right.

It is really hard to see the very negative side here, when I am now hearing the positive side from thousand of miles away. I just haven't heard anything about "drugs, women, glory, money." And the only power part I've been hearing is to win their country back.

Which brings me to that fundamental question I will have to ask myself... 'If the two sides of Ireland were united tomorrow would the IRA disband in a real sense?' Good question, it's one worth asking.

[yaanufs]

From http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-...1499253,00.html

Some highlights from the article. Ask yourself the question again, if Ireland united tomorrow does the IRA disband? Are they freedom fighters or are they an organised crime gang.

IRA plc turns from terror into biggest crime gang in Europe

The Republicans' crooked business empire rakes in huge amounts

 

AN ANALYSIS of the IRA’s involvement in criminal activities shows a huge range of operations, from smuggling to money laundering and from robbery to mortgage applications.

The group’s income through robberies varies from year to year. According to Special Branch, Storey played a central role in the theft of £26.5 million from the Northern Bank just before Christmas and organised three other robberies which netted a further £3 million last year.

In each case the IRA used a tactic known as “tiger kidnapping”, where the family of an employee is held hostage to ensure his or her co-operation. Since April last year there have been eleven “tiger kidnappings”, at least four of which have been blamed on the IRA.

According to the Organised Crime Task Force, the IRA’s fuel-laundering plants — often concealed in barns along the border — produce up to five million litres of illegal fuel each year, making an annual profit of at least £3 million.

About a third of all cigarettes in Northern Ireland are also smuggled, much of this proportion by the IRA,

Special Branch believes that the IRA received up to $6 million (£3.1 million) for helping to train Marxist rebels in Colombia, where three alleged IRA members are wanted after vanishing on bail last December.

The payment was allegedly negotiated by a former IRA “chief of staff” who has worldwide contacts — including in Libya, where republicans are believed to have deposited some of the proceeds from their vast criminal empire.

In West Belfast, the IRA even helps ordinary Roman Catholics to forge mortgage applications, offering bogus references and salary statements in return for a share of the loan.

[yaanufs]

from http://www.economist.com/world/worldthiswe...tory_id=3761838

More thoughts on the freedom fighters.

The bank raid suggests that, despite actively negotiating an end to its armed struggle for a united Ireland, the IRA does not intend to go out of business—and indeed plans to retain its position as Northern Ireland’s biggest organised-crime operation. The IRA declared a ceasefire in its guerrilla campaign against British rule in 1997, and its political wing signed up to the Good Friday peace agreement in 1998 and won seats in an earlier attempt at power-sharing government, in 1999. But the IRA is widely believed to have gone on enriching itself through a variety of criminal enterprises. It is also accused of continuing to hand out beatings and other forms of rough “justice”