W Of W

[Guest JRodan]

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth. Not only has it been confused, selectively ignored, second-guessed (caffeine), and debunked in most regards, but it failed marvelously to prioritize anything, and in fact missed the greatest discovery of all time (see below) by only a few years. Here is an overview for anyone willing to argue with any Mormon who clings to it as convincing proof of Mormonism.

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/w_wisdom.htm

Here are some interesting excerpts:

On April 7, 1868, the Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon stated that chocolate drinks and hot soups were forbidden: "We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks--tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man....we must feed our children properly.... We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pp. 221 & 223)

.....................................................

The Mormon writer Leonard J. Arrington gives this interesting information:

"In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien, who first expressed this theory, the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West. Just a few years before, Robert Owen had abolished the use of ardent spirits in his community at New Harmony. In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society, called at first the Cold Water Society by way of contempt. In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted in full, and with the hearty personal endorsement of Alexander Campbell, an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,' which in turn was quoting a widely circulated book. 'The Simplicity of Health,' which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, the eating intemperately of meats... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year.... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one....it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood.

"McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time." (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40)

Whitney R. Cross gives this information: "The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830's it attained national scope... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong...Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society--no tea, coffee or any other slops.'" (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212)

Note that it has been pointed out that the Word of Wisdom directly failed the 'saints' who died by the dozens on their forced marches across the continent from a little-known stubborn refusal to drink hot drinks, which were made with boiled water.

THE WORD OF WISDOM IS NOT ONLY BORROWED DIRECTLY FROM COLD WATER AND TEMPERANCE SOCIETIES OF THE DAY, but it failed miserably to reveal the most basic and elemental health truth ever discovered, GERM THEORY, also discovered in the nineteenth century. Instead, it stupidly got it backwards:

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabed...m#microorganism

[Amillia]

Well well, I guess we must dicount everything every prophet ever said, cause it related to the issues of the day. LOL

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 6 2005, 10:02 AM

Well well, I guess we must dicount everything every prophet ever said, cause it related to the issues of the day. LOL

I think this information should incline people to realize that borrowing from an already popular theme does not make someone a prophet.

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 6 2005, 12:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 6 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 6 2005, 10:02 AM

Well well, I guess we must dicount everything every prophet ever said, cause it related to the issues of the day. LOL    

I think this information should incline people to realize that borrowing from an already popular theme does not make someone a prophet.

M.

Well if that is all you wanted to say ~ no body is trying to convince you that JS was a prophet. Those who already know it, don't need to be convinced nor unconvinced through the WofW ~

But it is an inspired piece of work. I have had a personal experience with that which tells me it was given by revelation from the Lord ~ a proof of JS being a prophet to me, and I don't need that proof.

[Cal]

Originally posted by JRodan@Apr 6 2005, 05:40 AM

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth. Not only has it been confused, selectively ignored, second-guessed (caffeine), and debunked in most regards, but it failed marvelously to prioritize anything, and in fact missed the greatest discovery of all time (see below) by only a few years. Here is an overview for anyone willing to argue with any Mormon who clings to it as convincing proof of Mormonism.

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/w_wisdom.htm

Here are some interesting excerpts:

On April 7, 1868, the Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon stated that chocolate drinks and hot soups were forbidden: "We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks--tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man....we must feed our children properly.... We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pp. 221 & 223)

.....................................................

The Mormon writer Leonard J. Arrington gives this interesting information:

"In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien, who first expressed this theory, the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West. Just a few years before, Robert Owen had abolished the use of ardent spirits in his community at New Harmony. In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society, called at first the Cold Water Society by way of contempt. In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted in full, and with the hearty personal endorsement of Alexander Campbell, an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,' which in turn was quoting a widely circulated book. 'The Simplicity of Health,' which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, the eating intemperately of meats... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year.... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one....it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood.

"McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time." (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40)

Whitney R. Cross gives this information: "The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830's it attained national scope... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong...Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society--no tea, coffee or any other slops.'" (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212)

Note that it has been pointed out that the Word of Wisdom directly failed the 'saints' who died by the dozens on their forced marches across the continent from a little-known stubborn refusal to drink hot drinks, which were made with boiled water.

THE WORD OF WISDOM IS NOT ONLY BORROWED DIRECTLY FROM COLD WATER AND TEMPERANCE SOCIETIES OF THE DAY, but it failed miserably to reveal the most basic and elemental health truth ever discovered, GERM THEORY, also discovered in the nineteenth century. Instead, it stupidly got it backwards:

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabed...m#microorganism

The simple fact that the Church got alcohol and tobacco right is good enough for me!

And by the way, do you know anyone who has died lately of carefully observing the Mormon word of wisdom---maybe it is all those Mormon high priests!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Apr 6 2005, 01:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 6 2005, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JRodan@Apr 6 2005, 05:40 AM

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth. Not only has it been confused, selectively ignored, second-guessed (caffeine), and debunked in most regards, but it failed marvelously to prioritize anything, and in fact missed the greatest discovery of all time (see below) by only a few years. Here is an overview for anyone willing to argue with any Mormon who clings to it as convincing proof of Mormonism.

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/w_wisdom.htm

Here are some interesting excerpts:

On April 7, 1868, the Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon stated that chocolate drinks and hot soups were forbidden: "We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks--tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man....we must feed our children properly.... We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pp. 221 & 223)

.....................................................

The Mormon writer Leonard J. Arrington gives this interesting information:

"In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien, who first expressed this theory, the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West. Just a few years before, Robert Owen had abolished the use of ardent spirits in his community at New Harmony. In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society, called at first the Cold Water Society by way of contempt. In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted in full, and with the hearty personal endorsement of Alexander Campbell, an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,' which in turn was quoting a widely circulated book. 'The Simplicity of Health,' which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, the eating intemperately of meats... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year.... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one....it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood.

"McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time." (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40)

Whitney R. Cross gives this information: "The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830's it attained national scope... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong...Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society--no tea, coffee or any other slops.'" (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212)

Note that it has been pointed out that the Word of Wisdom directly failed the 'saints' who died by the dozens on their forced marches across the continent from a little-known stubborn refusal to drink hot drinks, which were made with boiled water.

THE WORD OF WISDOM IS NOT ONLY BORROWED DIRECTLY FROM COLD WATER AND TEMPERANCE SOCIETIES OF THE DAY, but it failed miserably to reveal the most basic and elemental health truth ever discovered, GERM THEORY, also discovered in the nineteenth century. Instead, it stupidly got it backwards:

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabed...m#microorganism

The simple fact that the Church got alcohol and tobacco right is good enough for me!

And by the way, do you know anyone who has died lately of carefully observing the Mormon word of wisdom---maybe it is all those Mormon high priests!

LOL ~ Hey Cal, where have you been? Good to see you back!

One more thing ~ if it was so popular ~ why is our church the only one not able to consume or use those products?

I know a lot of catholics, methodists, and Luthrens, and they can drink coffee, tea, smoke, drink and all the rest which is prohibited by the WofW ~

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Cal@Apr 6 2005, 01:55 PM

The simple fact that the Church got alcohol and tobacco right is good enough for me!

And by the way, do you know anyone who has died lately of carefully observing the Mormon word of wisdom---maybe it is all those Mormon high priests!

I'm on Cal's side of the fence on this one.

[Snow]

Ya know some people complain that I am a tad acerbic (oh look - how apropop for a discussion about the WoW) but in my defense it must be said that some people say incredibly idiotic things and so invite my displeasure. Case in point:

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth.

Oh come now RJordan, surely there must be some things that are further from the truth.

How bout this: Adolf Hitler survived WW2 and is secretly shacking up with Sandra Bullock and there love child is destined to be elected the next pope.

Surely that is a bit further from the truth, or maybe this: Your post was intelligent and convincing.

Lest you misunderstand me let me go on record by saying that it is not just your idiotic hyperbole that makes your post stupid. No, your post is stupid in it's entirety including its utter lack of reasoning. Let me explain. That's okay with you RJordan isn't it? That I explain? Good

Here your argument in outline form:

Conclusion: The WoW is false.

Evidence 1: George Cannon thinks soup is verboten.

Evidence 2: Jerald and Sandra Tanner (notoriously poor and untrained historians and rabid anti-Mormons) claim that Leonard Arrington (impecible historian) says that Dean McBrien and Whitney Cross think that the WoW grew out of the temperance movement.

Okay RJordan, that's prima facie moronic... but for the sake of the kiddies let's discuss why. First, that Elder Cannon thinks something or does not think something about what is to be included in the WoW no more affects the validity of the WoW than your opinion of it make is any more or less valid. Only a child or small dog would think so. Second, commonality is not a proof. If it were then we could safely assume that the Rhythm and Blues music genre was invented by space aliens because looking up at the sky from the earth towards outerspace we notice that the sky is blue. Hence Leadbelly and Blind Lemon Jefferson were space aliens.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 6 2005, 08:36 PM

Ya know some people complain that I am a tad acerbic (oh look - how apropop for a discussion about the WoW) but in my defense it must be said that some people say incredibly idiotic things and so invite my displeasure. Case in point:

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth.

Oh come now RJordan, surely there must be some things that are further from the truth.

How bout this: Adolf Hitler survived WW2 and is secretly shacking up with Sandra Bullock and there love child is destined to be elected the next pope.

Surely that is a bit further from the truth, or maybe this: Your post was intelligent and convincing.

Lest you misunderstand me let me go on record by saying that it is not just your idiotic hyperbole that makes your post stupid. No, your post is stupid in it's entirety including its utter lack of reasoning. Let me explain. That's okay with you RJordan isn't it? That I explain? Good

Here your argument in outline form:

Conclusion: The WoW is false.

Evidence 1: George Cannon thinks soup is verboten.

Evidence 2: Jerald and Sandra Tanner (notoriously poor and untrained historians and rabid anti-Mormons) claim that Leonard Arrington (impecible historian) says that Dean McBrien and Whitney Cross think that the WoW grew out of the temperance movement.

Okay RJordan, that's prima facie moronic... but for the sake of the kiddies let's discuss why. First, that Elder Cannon thinks something or does not think something about what is to be included in the WoW no more affects the validity of the WoW than your opinion of it make is any more or less valid. Only a child or small dog would think so. Second, commonality is not a proof. If it were then we could safely assume that the Rhythm and Blues music genre was invented by space aliens because looking up at the sky from the earth towards outerspace we notice that the sky is blue. Hence Leadbelly and Blind Lemon Jefferson were space aliens.

Now Snow, to be fair, the connection between the temperance movement and the WoW is a little better than that. Nevertheless, simultaneous occurance doesn't prove causation--I'm too lazy to look up the latin legal translation for the intellectually more impressive rendition.

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 6 2005, 09:36 PM

Ya know some people complain that I am a tad acerbic (oh look - how apropop for a discussion about the WoW) but in my defense it must be said that some people say incredibly idiotic things and so invite my displeasure.

You off base, I didn't exaggerate or try to make WoW look foolish. I addressed the points and added my perspective.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, YOU is off base, Bruver MacBumble! You be taken grate deelight pretendin you am sumbuddy you isnt. That am ezacly yer purspecteef, makin us reglar foke look stoopeed. Winnee and me is full of very smart idees. Jus cuz we caint alwees right em doun purdy like you dount meen we is any more dummer! So thar! adress that you M-F-B!!!

[Amillia]

The thing that is funny here is that people who want proof of God, the truthfulness of the church, or the credibility of a prophet ~ are demanding it from 'things' instead of God.

Those who already have the proof ~from God~ don't need this kind of stuff. I say ~ GO TO THE SOURCE! Ask God what He thinks, instead of asking people who aren't paid to convince you of anything!!! LOL

All people prove, who try and prove that these things aren't true,is that they don't know God, and that they haven't received personal revelation from the real God. Their lack of 'inspired knowledge' is all they prove.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 7 2005, 07:36 AM

The thing that is funny here is that people who want proof of God, the truthfulness of the church, or the credibility of a prophet ~ are demanding it from 'things' instead of God.

Those who already have the proof ~from God~ don't need this kind of stuff. I say ~ GO TO THE SOURCE! Ask God what He thinks, instead of asking people who aren't paid to convince you of anything!!! LOL

All people prove, who try and prove that these things aren't true,is that they don't know God, and that they haven't received personal revelation from the real God. Their lack of 'inspired knowledge' is all they prove.

Paraphrasing the Apostle Paul: Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good (true?) and reject that which is bad (untrue?).

If Paul thinks that one should look for at least SOME proof of things, why don't you, Amillia? And no, I don't think that Paul was only refering to subjective feelings of inspiration---by itself, it's too unreliable--people get inspired feelings of truth of too many things that are mutually exclusive-- For example, good Catholics get inspiration that THEIRS is the only true church. So who is right--inspiration ALONE doesn't cut it, you need rational analysis as well.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Apr 7 2005, 09:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 7 2005, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 7 2005, 07:36 AM

The thing that is funny here is that people who want proof of God, the truthfulness of the church, or the credibility of a prophet ~ are demanding it from 'things' instead of God.

Those who already have the proof ~from God~ don't need this kind of stuff. I say ~ GO TO THE SOURCE! Ask God what He thinks, instead of asking people who aren't paid to convince you of anything!!! LOL

All people prove, who try and prove that these things aren't true,is that they don't know God, and that they haven't received personal revelation from the real God. Their lack of 'inspired knowledge' is all they prove.

Paraphrasing the Apostle Paul: Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good (true?) and reject that which is bad (untrue?).

If Paul thinks that one should look for at least SOME proof of things, why don't you, Amillia? And no, I don't think that Paul was only refering to subjective feelings of inspiration---by itself, it's too unreliable--people get inspired feelings of truth of too many things that are mutually exclusive-- For example, good Catholics get inspiration that THEIRS is the only true church. So who is right--inspiration ALONE doesn't cut it, you need rational analysis as well.

You just slipped over my proof. My proof came from God, I did seek it ~ but not from men and things. God can give physical evidence. And when we are talking about truth, there are universal truths everyone in every religion can get a Godly response to, which doesn't prove or disprove their religion.

However, when we are talking about specifics, there are Godly proofs which can be tangible as what Daniel experienced when he requested to eat what he had been taught to eat ~ strength.

There is also the proof of inspiration which is followed by physical evidence. When I have been given inspiration to read the WofW while sick and a phrase in that texted is bolded, and I live that particular part through more inspiration and become well ~ I consider the WofW an inspired document.

It tells me that JS was inspired when he wrote it. That is proof for me. It won't convince anyone else who doesn't try it. When they put out a thing like the first post of this thread did, it tells me that this person didn't get the proof like I did, and there by are telling on themsleves that they haven't received this inspiration, revelation, and proof.

[pushka]

I think that JRodan brought up the plain fact that, in his opinion, the Word of Wisdom, although a good 'doctrine' to teach, was possibly not a revelation but was 'lifted' from other sources. He also pointed out many other 19th century medical discoveries which the LDS prophets were denied revelation about, and perhaps wondered why this would be the case, that God would choose to reveal to them the nature of tea, coffee, cocoa, soup? etc. and advise against partaking of them, and yet stop short of making revelations about Penicillin, and other important medical breakthroughs.

Amillia, you have faith that you have received proof that the WoW was a revelation received by the prophet...that is fine for your beliefs, others are more sceptical where proof is existant that these 'revelations' had already been preached about - in a non religious way, perhaps, by others before your LDS prophet received his revelation.

[Snow]

Originally posted by pushka@Apr 7 2005, 03:33 PM

I think that JRodan brought up the plain fact that, in his opinion, the Word of Wisdom, although a good 'doctrine' to teach...

I wonder why you think that when he explicity stated the contrary.

He, falsely, claimed that the WoW has been debunked in most regards. In fact, it has not. The observable fact of the matter is that Utah is the or amoung the leading states in most every single measure of health. And, mostly where they are not, the likely culprit is lack of WoW observance.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 7 2005, 06:16 PM

He, falsely, claimed that the WoW has been debunked in most regards. In fact, it has not. The observable fact of the matter is that Utah is the or amoung the leading states in most every single measure of health. And, mostly where they are not, the likely culprit is lack of WoW observance.

I found this study:

High Rate of Suicide

Utah ranks 8th highest in the nation for the number of age-adjusted suicides. For many years, suicide rates have been significantly higher for the Western States than for the rest of the country. By order of rank, the top ten states are New Mexico, Montana, Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Alaska, Utah, West Virginia and Oklahoma. Several studies have positively linked suicide with certain demographic, social and environmental factors[3], but none of these factors correlate significantly with the data from the Western States. The cause of this phenomenon remains to be discovered.

http://www.utahpriorities.net/briefs/rb9_h...healthcare.html

The suicide rate I found interesting because while visiting my SIL and her family she commented to me that in the past 8 months she's known personally about 5 people that have committed suicide. She believes that mental health problems are definitely more prevalent now.

M.

[Amillia]

I was wondering if anyone knew the skinny on nicatine ~ I know it is adictive, but what else does it do or not do, cause or not cause?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 8 2005, 08:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 8 2005, 08:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 7 2005, 06:16 PM

He, falsely, claimed that the WoW has been debunked in most regards. In fact, it has not. The observable fact of the matter is that Utah is the or amoung the leading states in most every single measure of health. And, mostly where they are not, the likely culprit is lack of WoW observance.

I found this study:

High Rate of Suicide

Utah ranks 8th highest in the nation for the number of age-adjusted suicides. For many years, suicide rates have been

I'm not sure what point or rebuttal you are trying to make. I didn't say EVERY measure of health, just most every measure of health. However the observation you posted, as you posted it, is misleading. Utah has a high suicide rate as do a number a Western States and some other cold weather states with certain characteristics as well. It seems that the suicide rate is not a function of Mormonality but rather geograhpy or weather, etc. The key point is that the suicide rate in Utah amoung Mormons is significantly LOWER than amoung non-Mormons thus being Mormon is a factor in improving whatever health issue relates to suicide, not making it worse as your post seems to suggest.

There might even be some health issues that AREN'T made better by being Mormons. Utah doesn't rate particularly well in obesity. I think it is very middle of the pack. I wonder if there is something about Mormon culture that contributes to obesity. Mormons are generally good about the "don't" of the WoW but many missed the spirit of the law and ignore the "moderation in all things" component.

In fact, if Mormons could live the higher laws of proactive good and healthy eating and moderation in all things, there probably wouldn't be as much of a need for the "don't." There is nothing significantly unhealthy about a glass of 1967 Chateau d'Yquem right before bed or a cup of green tea. It's the lack of moderation that's the problem.

But of course the WoW there are other important reasons for the WoW beyond a simple health code. Now this is a point a bit too sophisticated for RJordan to grasp but observance of the WoW serves to unite and give identity to Mormons much the way that various traditions give identity to the Jews. Its part of what makes us a seperate and distinct people.

[Guest JRodan]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 9 2005, 10:37 AM

geograhpy amoung RJordan seperate

Its part of what makes us a seperate and distinct people.

And here I am, all those many moons having shone on my pretty face, with the misconception that it was their extraordinary spelling skills that made them so exceedingly special!

[Snow]

Originally posted by JRodan+Apr 9 2005, 09:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JRodan @ Apr 9 2005, 09:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 9 2005, 10:37 AM

geograhpy amoung RJordan seperate

Its part of what makes us a seperate and distinct people.

And here I am, all those many moons having shone on my pretty face, with the misconception that it was there extraordinary spelling skills that made them so exceedingly special!

Here's a general rule of thumb: To avoid looking like a pretentious buffoon, when insulting someone for their careless spelling, make sure to proof your insult.

Gleeking shardbait.

[Nottingham]

Originally posted by JRodan@Apr 6 2005, 06:40 AM

Many Mormons are proud of the Word of Wisdom, and often claim it was a cutting-edge revelation that validated itself over and over. The problem is, nothing is farther than the truth. Not only has it been confused, selectively ignored, second-guessed (caffeine), and debunked in most regards, but it failed marvelously to prioritize anything, and in fact missed the greatest discovery of all time (see below) by only a few years. Here is an overview for anyone willing to argue with any Mormon who clings to it as convincing proof of Mormonism.

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/w_wisdom.htm

Here are some interesting excerpts:

On April 7, 1868, the Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon stated that chocolate drinks and hot soups were forbidden: "We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks--tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man....we must feed our children properly.... We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pp. 221 & 223)

.....................................................

The Mormon writer Leonard J. Arrington gives this interesting information:

"In recent years a number of scholars have contended that the revelation is an outgrowth of the temperance movement of the early nineteenth century. According to Dean D. McBrien, who first expressed this theory, the Word of Wisdom was a remarkable distillation of the prevailing thought of frontier America in the early 1830's. Each provision in the revelation, he claimed, pertained to an item which had formed the basis of widespread popular agitation in the early 1830's:

A survey of the situation existing at Kirtland when the revelation came forth is a sufficient explanation for it. The temperance wave had for some time been engulfing the West. Just a few years before, Robert Owen had abolished the use of ardent spirits in his community at New Harmony. In 1826 Marcus Morton had founded the American Temperance Society, called at first the Cold Water Society by way of contempt. In June, 1830, the Millenial Harbinger quoted in full, and with the hearty personal endorsement of Alexander Campbell, an article from the Philadelphia 'Journal of Health,' which in turn was quoting a widely circulated book. 'The Simplicity of Health,' which article most strongly condemned the use of alcohol, tobacco, the eating intemperately of meats... Temperance Societies were organized in great numbers during the early thirties, six thousand being formed in one year.... On October 6, 1830, the Kirtland Temperance Society was organized with two hundred thirty nine members.... This society at Kirtland was a most active one....it revolutionized the social customs of the neighborhood.

"McBrien then goes ahead to point out that the Temperance Society succeeded in eliminating a distillery in Kirtland on February 1, 1833, just twenty-seven days before the Latter-day Saint revelation counseling abstinence was announced, and that the distillery at Mentor, near Kirtland, was also closed at the same time." (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp. 39-40)

Whitney R. Cross gives this information: "The temperance movement was larger in every dimension than Burned-over District ultraism. It began much earlier and has not yet ended. During the 1830's it attained national scope... Further, if alcohol was evil because it frustrated the Lord's design for the human body, other drugs like tea, coffee, and tobacco must be equally wrong...Josiah Bissell, the Pioneer Line ultraist, had even before the 1831 revival 'got beyond Temperance to the Cold Water Society--no tea, coffee or any other slops.'" (The Burned-Over District, New York, 1965, pp. 211-212)

Note that it has been pointed out that the Word of Wisdom directly failed the 'saints' who died by the dozens on their forced marches across the continent from a little-known stubborn refusal to drink hot drinks, which were made with boiled water.

THE WORD OF WISDOM IS NOT ONLY BORROWED DIRECTLY FROM COLD WATER AND TEMPERANCE SOCIETIES OF THE DAY, but it failed miserably to reveal the most basic and elemental health truth ever discovered, GERM THEORY, also discovered in the nineteenth century. Instead, it stupidly got it backwards:

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabed...m#microorganism

I am wondering, just now, exactly what Leonard J. Arrington's personal perspective was. He sounds more like an apologist than anything else, in that he seems to be giving a lot of "corroborative evidence" for the beliefs and practices associated with that section 89 utterance, more than anything else.

It can be opined that Section 89 can stand on its own legs: it doesn't need propping up, by someone like the late Leonard J. Arrington, Historian to the Church.

Thank you for an informative quote. I had no idea that Temperance Societies had sprung up, all around Kirtland, Ohio, at or around that time, in U.S. History. Also, I was not aware that hot chocolate (viz., hot cocoa) was an early favorite beverage, either!

The fact that Geo. Q. Cannon wasn't about to "permit" the members of the Church to indulge in this or that [hot

drink] says more than I care to learn about that man.

Whatever happened to the idea of free will, it seems, happened quite early, in the LDS religion.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 9 2005, 02:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 9 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -JRodan@Apr 9 2005, 09:33 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 9 2005, 10:37 AM

geograhpy amoung RJordan seperate

Its part of what makes us a seperate and distinct people.

And here I am, all those many moons having shone on my pretty face, with the misconception that it was there extraordinary spelling skills that made them so exceedingly special!

Here's a general rule of thumb: To avoid looking like a pretentious buffoon, when insulting someone for their careless spelling, make sure to proof your insult.

Gleeking shardbait.

[Nottingham]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 8 2005, 10:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 8 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 7 2005, 06:16 PM

He, falsely, claimed that the WoW has been debunked in most regards. In fact, it has not. The observable fact of the matter is that Utah is the or amoung the leading states in most every single measure of health. And, mostly where they are not, the likely culprit is lack of WoW observance.

I found this study:

High Rate of Suicide

Utah ranks 8th highest in the nation for the number of age-adjusted suicides. For many years, suicide rates have been significantly higher for the Western States than for the rest of the country. By order of rank, the top ten states are New Mexico, Montana, Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Alaska, Utah, West Virginia and Oklahoma. Several studies have positively linked suicide with certain demographic, social and environmental factors[3], but none of these factors correlate significantly with the data from the Western States. The cause of this phenomenon remains to be discovered.

http://www.utahpriorities.net/briefs/rb9_h...healthcare.html

The suicide rate I found interesting because while visiting my SIL and her family she commented to me that in the past 8 months she's known personally about 5 people that have committed suicide. She believes that mental health problems are definitely more prevalent now.

M.

I like your style, T'Pol.

(And, that Milton Berle quote ain't half bad, either!)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 9 2005, 09:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 9 2005, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Apr 8 2005, 08:08 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 7 2005, 06:16 PM

...In fact, it has not. The observable fact of the matter is that Utah is the or amoung the leading states in most every single measure of health. And, mostly where they are not, the likely culprit is lack of WoW observance.

I found this study:....

I'm not sure what point or rebuttal you are trying to make.

No rebuttal at all. You mentioned the word 'fact' in your post, so I wanted to find my own facts regarding Utah's health which I did. The study just happened to mention the 'high suicide rate', which while visiting my SIL in Utah, happened to mention to me that it's been very strange for her, having personally known people that have just committed suicide so recently in a very short span of time. It could just be kizmit.

I didn't say EVERY measure of health, just most every measure of health. However the observation you posted, as you posted it, is misleading. Utah has a high suicide rate as do a number a Western States and some other cold weather states with certain characteristics as well. It seems that the suicide rate is not a function of Mormonality but rather geograhpy or weather, etc.

I never said it was.

The key point is that the suicide rate in Utah amoung Mormons is significantly LOWER than amoung non-Mormons thus being Mormon is a factor in improving whatever health issue relates to suicide,  not making it worse as your post seems to suggest.

I don't think I suggested any such thing. I just thought the timing of me finding that study and what my SIL mentioned was interesting.

There might even be some health issues that AREN'T made better by being Mormons. Utah doesn't rate particularly well in obesity. I think it is very middle of the pack. I wonder if there is something about Mormon culture that contributes to obesity. Mormons are generally good about the "don't" of the WoW but many missed the spirit of the law and ignore the "moderation in all things" component.

I agree. I believe that the lack of moderation (portion sizes) is the major culprit in obeseity for everyone who suffers from it, not just Mormons.

In fact, if Mormons could live the higher laws of proactive good and healthy eating and moderation in all things, there probably wouldn't be as much of a need for the "don't." There is nothing significantly unhealthy about a glass of 1967 Chateau d'Yquem right before bed or a cup of green tea. It's the lack of moderation that's the problem.

I agree again.

But of course the WoW there are other important reasons for the WoW beyond a simple health code. Now this is a point a bit too sophisticated for RJordan to grasp but observance of the WoW serves to unite and give identity to Mormons much the way that various traditions give identity to the Jews. Its part of what makes us a seperate and distinct people.

Yes, it is quite a cultural tradition.

M.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Nottingham@Apr 9 2005, 02:06 PM

I like your style, T'Pol.

(And, that Milton Berle quote ain't half bad, either!)

Thanks Nottingham. The first time I read that quote from Mr. Berle, I loved it - and since I do confess to being a mild-mannered trekkie, I've come to think the quote could be a kind of mantra for William Shatner.

M.