How Accountable Are We In The End

[Amillia]

Originally posted by begood2@Apr 29 2005, 06:39 AM

SF,

It is a tragedy that a frightfully large number of people become addicted to drugs each year. This self-destruction can leave an indelible mark of pain on their families and associates.

I like John doe's comment ... "this man didn't have the capacity to handle the situation he got himself into"

It is easy to judge the faults of others but ... only God knows whats in their heart and the mental capacity that they have to handle the situations that they have encountered.

I pray that but for the strength and grace of God so go I!

Very good post begood2!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Apr 29 2005, 09:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Apr 29 2005, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--begood2@Apr 29 2005, 06:39 AM

SF,

It is a tragedy that a frightfully large number of people become addicted to drugs each year. This self-destruction can leave an indelible mark of pain on their families and associates.

I like John doe's comment ... "this man didn't have the capacity to handle the situation he got himself into"

It is easy to judge the faults of others but ... only God knows whats in their heart and the mental capacity that they have to handle the situations that they have encountered.

I pray that but for the strength and grace of God so go I!

Thank you, begood2.

Tragedy is something that we all can learn from if we choose to do so. When a person has lost part of his ability to make clear and correct choices either from an addiction, or an injury, it is difficult for us to judge them. My son Nick has a brain injury and he says things to me that we never would have said before his accident. He has frontal lobe damage so he has no inhibitions. With me being his primary care giver I see it all. He tells me everything and he says what ever he wants to me. For someone on the outside looking in, he would appear cruel, crass, and in need of a tongue lashing. It isn't easy being on the receiving end when Nick becomes irritated, but I am sure it isn't easy being him at those times either. I have not seen anyone who knows need judge him for his actions. For those who know Nick they are learning so much about compassion and understanding.

I have learned a lot from the life of our friend. I have learned that when you first start to feel like you are in a hole, to find that shovel and begin to dig THEN. Digging out when you can still see the light is much easier then digging out in the dark. If you do end up needing to dig in the dark it would be much easier with the encouragement of a mentor but there might not always have that support from family or a friend, so you should not count on it. Our friend apparently did not call on the one and only mentor who could find him in the dark and I am not sure why. We had lost contact with him with a job change and a move.

In my own life, I have needed to be reminded to get back on course...to go back to the basics of what I know to be true. I also have learned, or been reminded of something from Snow. Many times when we get off course it is because of our own selfishness. If we should get off a course in drown in both pride and selfishness, it takes a lot of humility to get back to where we can find peace. I believe that it can be a never ending battle for a "fence sitter" to keep finding their way from pride to peace. I want to make sure that I can always remain on the peace side of the fence.

Another good post Strawberry!

[Lindy]

SF......check your PM box.

[Guest Casiopeia]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 24 2005, 12:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 24 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 24 2005, 09:21 AM

How strongly will this man be judged?

The same as everybody else.

Did he accomplish his mission in the life?

Obviously not, unless his mission was to ruin the lives of his wife and kids and die alone as a drug addict.

How Accountable Are We In The END?

Drug addicts and alcoholics (or anyone addicted to anything) don't lose the power of choice, at least not until way, way down the road. While high, the choice is obscured or perhaps unavailable but everyday one has the choice to move towards recovery, to decide in favor of morality and family and health, or to turn one's back and go the other direction.

Selfish individuals such as the one you describe make a daily selfish decision that getting high, or buzzed or tweaks or whatever is more important than their responsibility, than love, than family. I expect that we will all be held accountable for our choices.

I was quite taken back by your post. I am the mother of a recovering Crystal Meth addict. It is clear to me that you haven't been exposed closely if at all to someone who is addicted to drugs. Do you really think that a drug addict once they are hooked can just CHOOSE not to? That the gospel will make it easier for them to do so?

A drug addicted who decides to quit *as well as anyone addicted to any substance* doesn't just make one choice. They make a new choice every day of their life for the rest of their life. My daughter has put me through alot in the last 18 months. Not just in using but in her recovery. It has opened my eyes alot to be involved in her struggles.

I can tell you what I have learned. IF I being so very human can learn to love and forgive my daughter for everything she has put me and my family through then how much more is our Father capable of forgiving us.

Drug addiction is a disease. It has to be treated. The question is being asked how accountable are we? Every person does the best they can and in the end it will be up to the Divine being that created us to judge. No one on this earth has the right to do so.

If you believe in the words of Jesus that we are to love one another and that when we do help our loved ones and even those we don't know or love we are doing it unto him. Drug addicts need our help not our harsh words.

I hope for your sake Snow that you are never in the same shoes as this man who lost everything. But then again, maybe you would benefit from such a trial. It might just open your eyes.

Respectfully,

Casi

[pushka]

Thank you for that very sensible response Casi...I agree with your sentiments entirely, and wish you and your family all the best for a great future...

[Snow]

Originally posted by Casiopeia+May 1 2005, 12:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Casiopeia @ May 1 2005, 12:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Apr 24 2005, 12:06 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Apr 24 2005, 09:21 AM

How strongly will this man be judged?

The same as everybody else.

Did he accomplish his mission in the life?

Obviously not, unless his mission was to ruin the lives of his wife and kids and die alone as a drug addict.

How Accountable Are We In The END?

Drug addicts and alcoholics (or anyone addicted to anything) don't lose the power of choice, at least not until way, way down the road. While high, the choice is obscured or perhaps unavailable but everyday one has the choice to move towards recovery, to decide in favor of morality and family and health, or to turn one's back and go the other direction.

Selfish individuals such as the one you describe make a daily selfish decision that getting high, or buzzed or tweaks or whatever is more important than their responsibility, than love, than family. I expect that we will all be held accountable for our choices.

I was quite taken back by your post. I am the mother of a recovering Crystal Meth addict. It is clear to me that you haven't been exposed closely if at all to someone who is addicted to drugs.

Nonsense. The only thing clear is that you disagree with me. Somehow you equate me disagreeing with me not being familiar. Again - nonsense. I speak from direct, prolonged personal experience and years of study on the matter.

Do you really think that a drug addict once they are hooked can just CHOOSE not to?

I don't think so, I know so. In fact, it is the ONLY way. If any other way is persued, for example, physically preventing someone access to drugs but the person doesn't make personal choices that result in recovery, then as soon as the person has access back to drugs they will relaspe.

Choice is absolutely and undeniabley essential. While recovery involves many factors, choice is the primary factor.

That the gospel will make it easier for them to do so?

Without a doubt - that is true. I personally know that it is true - not in the same way that I know that penicillin cures the clap (through repeatable, peer reviewed, double-blind studies) but rather in the same way that the 2004 University of Utah gridiron team knows that they own the BYU football team. Cause they experienced it. I can make no greater reccommendation than the gospel.

A drug addicted who decides to quit *as well as anyone addicted to any substance* doesn't just make one choice.  They make a new choice every day of their life for the rest of their life.

No one disputes that. No one, addict, or anyone who struggles with personal demons - as each one of does - can simply say, hey, I choose to no longer be a jerk, or clumsy or whiny, or obsessive, and never have to worry about it again, but exercising free agency is the key.

I can tell you what I have learned. IF I being so very human can learn to love and forgive my daughter for everything she has put me and my family through then how much more is our Father capable of forgiving us. 

That's wonderful - seriously. Those close to addicts learn important lessons from them. Forgiving, however, should never include enabling. That is the worst possible thing that loved ones can do for an addict. There need to be real, immediate, and severe consequences for using. While choice is the key, lack of real consequences results in lack of real motivation. If your daughter is only 18, and if you don't know that yet, the sooner you learn, the healthier she will become.

Drug addiction is a disease.  It has to be treated.

Sure - it's a disease because the AMA decided to call it a disease but it is not a disease in the same way that, say, Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever, tick-borne encephalitis or malaria are diseases. How many diseases are diagnosed by the patient saying "I have the disease" or "Hi, I'm Gunther and I'm an alcoholic"? Course, the addiction industry gives you questions that will help you diagnose yourself... Are drugs or alcohol negatively influencing your relationship? Are drugs or alcohol affecting your work? Is your health affected? Have you ever been in trouble with the law? The exact same questions could be used to diagnose a rude jerk who eats too much bacon and get into fights.

People like to call it a disease because it decreases the stigma - hey, it's not me who shoplifts and then drives across town to sell the goods and score some crank; it's the disease!

The bottom line is that people who problematically drink and use, drink and use because they are selfish and prefer to get high instead of going to school or work or working on their relationships, or bettering themselves, or gardening or fishing and will make a thousand choices and go to great length to stay in their disease... until they choose otherwise or are forced to choose otherwise.

Every person does the best they can and in the end it will be up to the Divine being that created us to judge.  No one on this earth has the right to do so.

No offense but practically no one does the BEST they can and we, everyone of us judges others every day of our lives. I judge my kid's friends and associates and who they should hang with, I judge employees and their work performance, I make judgements about who to trust and who not to. You too judge. The key is to make good and righteous judgements. No only do we have the right to judge, but we are commanded to judge. (example: 1 Cor 6)

If you believe in the words of Jesus that we are to love one another and that when we do help our loved ones and even those we don't know or love we are doing it unto him.  Drug addicts need our help not our harsh words.

Love em all you want. Just don't enable and allow and accept addict behavior. Set the consequences, make sure they are understood - you will lose you car or you will lose your allowance or you will go to rehab or I will not intervene to keep you out of jail or you will be kicked out of the house, or I will leave you... if you use again, and then stick to it, though it be painful. The consequences should be fair, match the offense and escalate. Be consistent. Follow-through. Parents or spouse who don't do what I just described usually help the addict get worse, not better and learn the hard way what works and what doesn't - after they too get sucked in the addicts selfishness and disease.

I hope for your sake Snow that you are never in the same shoes as this man who lost everything.  But then again, maybe you would benefit from such a trial.  It might just open your eyes.

Too late.

Look Cassi (love the name, regards to your daughter Andromeda), I'm not trying to be cruel. It is often the love of those close to addicts that make their life worth living. I just know how addicts really think and behave; not how they say they think, but what really goes on in their heads. If rehab or AA or howling at the moon work for someone, more power to them - go to rehab and howl at the moon, but the solution lies in free agency and getting past the selfishness. Nothing supports that more than the gospel and if addict and alcoholic are to become changed men and women, what beside Christ could possibly be better?

Respectfully,

Been there.

[Tick]

The only thing you can do with a drug addict is run as far away from them as you can. Every thing they do centers around that drug. That includes what you have. Anyone else becomes second. A far second. People try to compare it to food. Way different. Drugs are a time in heaven. Snow is somewhat harsh, but it is a harsh world and it is getting worse. It is up to the addict. You cant change them and they will bring you down with their ship. Drugs also lead to other abuses of every kind. How do you know he wasnt abuseing his wife or children in some way. She was wise to leave. Most addicts are screwed. I have to say I agree with snow on every count in this matter. The person he started off being and the person he ended up being are 2 different people. And dont get mad. you brought this conversation to the board. I feel more for his family than him. He didnt die from his physical pain he died from his addiction. That is part of the reason we are here (pain and suffering). Pain killers, medication, anti dep. only delay problems. It is amazeing that anyone survived 100 years ago?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Tick@May 1 2005, 09:47 PM

The only thing you can do with a drug addict is run as far away from them as you can. Every thing they do centers around that drug. That includes what you have. Anyone else becomes second. A far second. People try to compare it to food. Way different. Drugs are a time in heaven. Snow is somewhat harsh, but it is a harsh world and it is getting worse. It is up to the addict. You cant change them and they will bring you down with their ship. Drugs also lead to other abuses of every kind. How do you know he wasnt abuseing his wife or children in some way. She was wise to leave. Most addicts are screwed. I have to say I agree with snow on every count in this matter. The person he started off being and the person he ended up being are 2 different people. And dont get mad. you brought this conversation to the board. I feel more for his family than him. He didnt die from his physical pain he died from his addiction. That is part of the reason we are here (pain and suffering). Pain killers, medication, anti dep. only delay problems. It is amazeing that anyone survived 100 years ago?

First of all Tick (what a strange name), I am not mad at what you said. The opinions her have been so varied and I believe there to be valid points with each one thus far.

If someone in my family was addicted to drugs I wouldn't run, I would seek treatment for them. I agree that treatment would help unless the patient is willing. I don't know if our friend became violent or not I do know that his wife had her reasons for leaving and I have never judged her for doing so. Our friend was the same person when he died; he just had many more complications in his life then. I feel that every time he tried to get straight and find work was a cry for what he had before the drugs took over. We don't know if he died in physical pain or not we don't know many of the details of how he died.

I think that medicine is a marvelous thing when it is used correctly. I don't understand what you mean with this statement, "Pain killers, medication, anti dep. only delay problems.¡É Would you care to expand on what you meant?