Book Of Mormon Translation - Rock In The Hat.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 20 2004, 10:55 AM

So who the "what" cares what any discovery of BHR comes up with or anyone else for that matter?...

People who love history care. I am infatuated with history. If only I could have been a fly on any of those 19th century Mormon walls. :)

M.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Peace -- The Book of Mormon does contain great spiritual truths, which are true regardless of how the book came to be. But the question of how it came to be is important, too. Because the Church hierarchy derives its authority in large part from the doctrine that the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God, which confirms Joseph Smith's calling as a prophet, which confirms the prophetic authority of his successors. Church leaders have made this argument explicitly.

The reason I follow the counsel of Church leaders is that in my experience, it's generally sound counsel. (In this, I have the benefit of having been too young to have noticed some of the counsel given in the 1960s and 1970s which the Church has quietly swept under the rug.) I occasionally even decide to defer to their counsel on matters where it differs from my own thinking, acknowledging that I might be wrong and that they may have greater spiritual understanding than I do. Usually (though not always) I find after a while that, in fact, they were considering things that I'd overlooked and were right and I wrong.

If I were truly convinced that the Book of Mormon were literally what it claims to be -- an ancient record of a Hebrew civilization in America and an older Middle Eastern/Central Asian one -- then I'd have a stronger basis for sustaining the Church leaders than I do now. As it is, I think my affection for the present Church would be a good deal soured if Church leaders started to consistently teach things that conflict with what I believe to be right. If I were truly convinced that they were honest-to-goodness, burning-bush, chariots-of-fire, have-the-bears-eat-the-kids prophets (as opposed to only accepting the possibility that they are), then I'd be much less inclined to disagree with them if an occasion arose to do so.

If God desires that I be convinced of these things, He'll have to do the convincing. It's not that I go through the Book of Mormon looking for inconsistencies, after the manner of B.H. Roberts; it's that even as I read it trying to focus on the spiritual messages, my head keeps whacking into the literary and historical equivalents of overhanging rocks (like my mother once did on the trail from the old Bridal Veil Falls tram station to the top of the falls). The most I can do is to be diligent in prayer and study, keep an open mind, and consciously decide that I'm not going to evaluate the Book of Mormon as I would evaluate any other claim -- because I suspect that if I did, the rational evidence wouldn't support it.

Demanding something of the Lord may seem presumptuous of an "unprofitable servant," as King Benjamin put it. But the New Testament tells us to go "boldly" to the throne of God's grace. So boldly I go. If the Lord wants me to be a TBM, it's His move.

[Maureen]

Since I posted an excerpt of Grant H. Palmer's book; I might as well post an excerpt about the man himself:

Grant H. Palmer: Biographical Sketch of my CES Career, 1967-2001

...During the 1985-86 school year, I experienced some difficulty with my file leaders while at Brighton Seminary. Two problems emerged: (1) I shared my research on Joseph Smith and magic with faculty members and several of them did not appreciate it. (2) In one of my classes, a senior student asked if the golden plates were used during the translation process. I answered no, and the student reported this to his mother, who then visited my principal, who then went to his file leader, who then took the "problem" to our zone administrator at the church office building. A meeting was soon convened with me and my three file leaders present. We spent about an hour together, mostly discussing whether or not the plates were used during the translation process. They said they had never heard a General Authority of the church say the plates were not used in the translation process; and that church magazines depicted Joseph using the plates while translating. It was frustrating. I told a senior historian at BYU, that I felt that on a scale of 1 to 10 that their collective understanding of our history was about a 3. He said, "I think you are being too generous." I was placed on probation for one year, beginning on 3 January 1985. In sum, I agreed to tone things down and I apologized to the Brighton faculty for creating an unsettling environment in the seminary by sharing with them. 1987-88 was my most successful year and a half of teaching seminary.

From 1967-85, I was totally a true believer, yet always open to new ideas and freely shared them with others. In the fall of 1984, the Martin Harris Salamander Letter caused me to explore what impact Joseph Smith's magical mindset may have had upon the Moroni gold plates story and the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. In 1986-87, I was uneasy enough by my continuing research (and also preferring to teach the adult mind) that I asked to teach inmates at the Salt Lake County jail. The Area Director over the entire Salt Lake valley knew I was struggling. He asked how I felt about the Book of Mormon. I said that it should go to the entire world because it brings people to Christ (my book also says the same on pages 49, 118). I was appointed Institute director because the position was open and because my Area Director found my testimony sufficient. Being the only full time person at the jail and with classroom space limited, I was instructed by jail administration and by CES, to teach lessons suitable for all Christian inmates, which was perfect for my situation. I accordingly taught only the Bible and counseled inmates from 1988 until I retired in 2001. I immensely enjoyed these thirteen years of teaching the New Testament and counseling.

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/ins...ider's2.htm

M.

[Guest Starsky]

Demanding something of the Lord may seem presumptuous of an "unprofitable servant," as King Benjamin put it. But the New Testament tells us to go "boldly" to the throne of God's grace. So boldly I go. If the Lord wants me to be a TBM, it's His move.

I don't think you have to be a TBM. Infact the term TBM to me means blind, unthinking, follower.

I expect questions and sometimes rejection...of what some leaders say...they are men first and formost and sometimes give their own opinions..like what is found in BRM book Mormon Doctrine.

But I do believe you can't always worry about the stones that trip...you have to pick yourself up and move forward. Not bearing down and focusing too much upon that stone.

Using your own mother's story....the path she trod wasn't remembered solely for that stone was it? Or was she able to look past that stone and enjoy the beauty that surrounded her up those falls.

I totally agree with you, that you must think for yourself and determine for yourself whether or not what is being handed out by the leaders is right...right for you and your family. But don't let their mistakes become the focus, or you'll miss the main reason they are there. That reason being...facilitating the works of the Lord on a world wide plane.

As for the way the BofM was presented...this I will trust...because JS was giving it to us in this format for a good reason. The Lord told him to...endorsed him doing it that way...and it has prospered and anyone receiving the teaching of that book have prospered.

Whether or not it was actually presented that way...really doesn't matter...if it doesn't matter to God.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen@Feb 20 2004, 12:37 PM

Since I posted an excerpt of Grant H. Palmer's book; I might as well post an excerpt about the man himself:

Grant H. Palmer: Biographical Sketch of my CES Career, 1967-2001

...During the 1985-86 school year,.. In one of my classes, a senior student asked if the golden plates were used during the translation process. I answered no, and the student reported this to his mother, who then visited my principal...

M.

I have read Palmer's book and reccommend it to this board. Actually, Redbone, Trident's Navy Seal Commander reccommended it - same deal. However, it is a cautioned reccommendation. Palmer is no scholar or at least doesn't much hold to scholarly standards. His "no" in the above quote is an example. The correct response would be that according to the reports of such and such witnesses, the plates were not used in the typical fashion depicted in paintings... and so on.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 20 2004, 01:35 PM

Demanding something of the Lord may seem presumptuous of an "unprofitable servant," as King Benjamin put it. But the New Testament tells us to go "boldly" to the throne of God's grace. So boldly I go. If the Lord wants me to be a TBM, it's His move.

I don't think you have to be a TBM. Infact the term TBM to me means blind, unthinking, follower.

I expect questions and sometimes rejection...of what some leaders say...they are men first and formost and sometimes give their own opinions..like what is found in BRM book Mormon Doctrine.

But I do believe you can't always worry about the stones that trip...you have to pick yourself up and move forward. Not bearing down and focusing too much upon that stone.

Using your own mother's story....the path she trod wasn't remembered solely for that stone was it? Or was she able to look past that stone and enjoy the beauty that surrounded her up those falls.

I totally agree with you, that you must think for yourself and determine for yourself whether or not what is being handed out by the leaders is right...right for you and your family. But don't let their mistakes become the focus, or you'll miss the main reason they are there. That reason being...facilitating the works of the Lord on a world wide plane.

As for the way the BofM was presented...this I will trust...because JS was giving it to us in this format for a good reason. The Lord told him to...endorsed him doing it that way...and it has prospered and anyone receiving the teaching of that book have prospered.

Whether or not it was actually presented that way...really doesn't matter...if it doesn't matter to God.

A very thoughtful response. Thank you.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 20 2004, 03:08 PM

I have read Palmer's book and reccommend it to this board. Actually, Redbone, Trident's Navy Seal Commander reccommended it - same deal. However, it is a cautioned reccommendation. Palmer is no scholar or at least doesn't much hold to scholarly standards. His "no" in the above quote is an example. The correct response would be that according to the reports of such and such witnesses, the plates were not used in the typical fashion depicted in paintings... and so on.

I don't see his answer as being the point of his comment. I see the reaction it created as the point he was trying to make. He was remarking on his own biography - don't know how scholarly you have to be to do that. :)

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen+Feb 20 2004, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Feb 20 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Feb 20 2004, 03:08 PM

I have read Palmer's book and reccommend it to this board. Actually, Redbone, Trident's Navy Seal Commander reccommended it - same deal. However, it is a cautioned reccommendation. Palmer is no scholar or at least doesn't much hold to scholarly standards. His "no" in the above quote is an example. The correct response would be that according to the reports of such and such witnesses, the plates were not used in the typical fashion depicted in paintings... and so on.

I don't see his answer as being the point of his comment. I see the reaction it created as the point he was trying to make. He was remarking on his own biography - don't know how scholarly you have to be to do that. :)

M.

It's a technique of his. He does it continually though his book - making a point without making a point.

Case in point: His chapter on the Godlen Pot... a german author, the guy who wrote The Nutcracker also wrote a story called The Golden Pot. He notes what he thinks are several or more parallels between the JS/Moroni story and the fictional book. He goes on to tell how JS knew a guy who spoke German and who had traveled in Europe. A guy such as this would have enjoyed literature and indeed, may well have enjoyed literature such as the Golden Pot and having been to Europe, may have heard of it and may have even have read it- and then rushed to America to tell Joseph.

Is there any evidence that JS ever heard of the story or the details? None whatsoever, but Palmer makes the case, without making the case, that Smith knew about it and stole the story line for his Moroni visitation narrative. The reader is left to make the exact connection that Palmer wanted even though the connection is Palmers own construct.

We tried to pin Palmer down if he believed there was I connection. When caught having to defend himself in person, rather than being able to make a one-sided inference in published print, he said, Absolutely not, I simply present the story to show the milieu i which JS lived. Bull. He tried to get away with an unfair paint job he couldn't back up.

[Maureen]

I'm going to have to buy the book. I doubt the LDS bookstore in my city would have it, even though I was surprised to find they had the book: Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God/Son of Thunder by Harold Schindler (and of course bought it). Once I read it for myself I'll be able to make a more informative judgement on it.

M.

[Snow]

M.

The LDS bookstore in my area, not Deseret Books, carries only books that would typically be carried by Deseret Books; however they can and will order from Signature Books for me when asked. On the other hand, Benchmark Books in SLC is my favorite and they will ship me anything I ask for. Course there are 17.378 million on-line source but I doubt that you are smart enough to figure out how that works you ignorant misguided malodorous saliva-dipped puddle of parrot droppings. Thank you and have a nice day!

[Snow]

I'm sorry. My new spyderman suit but be cutting off my oxygen supply. Please forgive my cloudburst.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 20 2004, 07:50 PM

I'm sorry. My new spyderman suit but be cutting off my oxygen supply. Please forgive my cloudburst.

I forgive you! Call me old fashion but I'm not into on-line buying - maybe fashion has nothing to do with it, I'm really paranoid. :)

M.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Maureen@Feb 21 2004, 09:36 AM

I forgive you! Call me old fashion but I'm not into on-line buying - maybe fashion has nothing to do with it, I'm really paranoid. :)

M.

Fashionable or not, I think that we can all agree that you are old and getting older by the hour. Whoops, there goes the spyderman suit cutting off my oxygen supply again.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 18 2004, 08:33 PM

Peace--As usual you miss the point! Some of you have made the claim that JS COULD'NT have come up with the stories in the BoM BECAUSE he did not   possess the education or talent. What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM.

YOur comment does nothing to refute the observation that JS could indeed have come up with the BoM story line on his own. That you think his story telling ability was God given is simply circular reasoning; you are assuming the truth of what you are trying to prove! That is, that JS was inspired by God in the first place!

You have said nothing to disprove the fact that JS DID have story telling talent which could account for the BoM as a purely man-made document. Your statement simply ASSERTS your personal belief about it, but does nothing to substantiate it.

Cal, I'm sorry, did you state something that disproved JS's claim and I missed it? Your assertion that he was a good storyteller is just your opinion and nothing more.

There are just too many ifs and maybes in the antis claims. I have read everything that you have written many, many times before, and it is just not convincing. Maybe it is to some who don't have faith, but to those who have faith, it is baseless. There are just as many positive proofs as there are negative ones. It all depends on whether you choose to have faith in God or not. JMHO.

Jenda--by saying that your solution to the discussion is that you just have to have FAITH is an admission that you can't really defend the BoM with facts and reason.

I don't need to defend the BoM with facts and reason. To me, there is enough circumstantial evidence to make the story believable, and I don't even need that. It is just fun to read those things. My faith is all I need.

If faith isn't good enough for you, Cal, then you will never be able to take anything on faith. That includes the love people say they have for you, the love God claims he has for you, anything. You will just erode things away till you are left with a belief in nothing.

I really do feel sorry for people like you. You might be a really nice guy, but people who demand proof before they believe in anything are just pessimistic at heart. You can't take anything on faith, and it is a drag.

Sorry. Just MHO.

Jenda--you are truely full of crap! Just because I question the literal historicity of the BoM and don't believe in taking on FAITH every little fairy tale I hear doen't mean I don't have faith in my life as a general principle. I guess you have to villify and denigrate those that push you to justify your claims. It must make you feel better. I suspect that you need to do it because deep down you know that what I am saying is true--you can't igore the obvious without some cognitive dissonace, and it eats at you.

I actually have a tremendous amount of faith. I have faith in the love of the God I BELIEVE IN. But my God doesn't demand that I believe in things that are not LOGICALLY believable! Of course I believe in the love of people around me. Why? Because it is BELIEVEABLE! They SHOW ME THEIR LOVE. By your logic I should believe a person loves me, even if he kicks dirt in my face and ignores me when I speak! Faith requires reason. You don't just believe in things in the face of evidence to the contrary! You act as though one should believe in just about anything if it makes you FEEL good! The BoM makes you FEEL good! Well, whoopy! It must me literally true in TOTAL! Drugs can make you FEEL good to. What does that prove? (by the way--I have never touched drugs--so don't jump to any conclusions--as you are prone to do)

[Guest Starsky]

Cal what church do you attend or what way do you worship? And does your church advocate dedicating ones time and talents to destroying other's beliefs? Are you a missionary for your church?

If so, shouldn't you be teaching your beliefs of your church?

[Guest Starsky]

Maybe you should start a web page for your church. Set up a place where people can come and harrass you about what you believe and know to be true in your life....how about it Cal or are you just a parasite?

[Cal]

Who said I wanted a church? And where did you get the arrogance and false pride to suggest that only YOU are welcome here? I guess it really shakes you up to have someone make you justify your claims.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 22 2004, 12:20 PM

Who said I wanted a church? And where did you get the arrogance and false pride to suggest that only YOU are welcome here? I guess it really shakes you up to have someone make you justify your claims.

You are putting words and meaning to those words in my mouth which never ever was there from my side....LOL

You are welcome...but when you are here, you are going to hear us say with the power of the Holy Ghost...that JS was and is a prophet of God and that the works that came through him were works of the Lord. Plain and simple...and you will find us defending and accepting truths in regards to those works.

And if that bothers you, then you don't have to come...but you are absolutely <span style=\'font-family:Geneva\'>Welcome...welcome!

[Cal]

And you are going to hear me telling you, with the power of MY HOLY GHOST, that YOUR HOLY GHOST, needs an education. That's what my HOLY GHOST has told me!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 22 2004, 12:31 PM

And you are going to hear me telling you, with the power of MY HOLY GHOST, that YOUR HOLY GHOST, needs an education. That's what my HOLY GHOST has told me!

2 Nephi:

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

[Cal]

Yeah Peace--YOU better watch out!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 22 2004, 12:20 PM

And where did you get the arrogance and false pride to suggest that only YOU are welcome here? I guess it really shakes you up to have someone make you justify your claims.

Who would that be Cal?

Are you under the impression that you are making us justify something? Now's who's filled with arrogance and false pride.?

You flatter your self.

On the other hand - I batter myself. There is nothing I like more than sliding into a nice bathtub filled with a tasty, thick tempura batter. Guess that's the difference between us, yoiu and I.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 22 2004, 12:13 PM

Peace--As usual you miss the point! Some of you have made the claim that JS COULD'NT have come up with the stories in the BoM BECAUSE he did not   possess the education or talent. What I have shown is that JS did INDEED have a creative talent and imagination for story telling INDEPENDENT of the BoM.

YOur comment does nothing to refute the observation that JS could indeed have come up with the BoM story line on his own. That you think his story telling ability was God given is simply circular reasoning; you are assuming the truth of what you are trying to prove! That is, that JS was inspired by God in the first place!

You have said nothing to disprove the fact that JS DID have story telling talent which could account for the BoM as a purely man-made document. Your statement simply ASSERTS your personal belief about it, but does nothing to substantiate it.

Cal, I'm sorry, did you state something that disproved JS's claim and I missed it? Your assertion that he was a good storyteller is just your opinion and nothing more.

There are just too many ifs and maybes in the antis claims. I have read everything that you have written many, many times before, and it is just not convincing. Maybe it is to some who don't have faith, but to those who have faith, it is baseless. There are just as many positive proofs as there are negative ones. It all depends on whether you choose to have faith in God or not. JMHO.

Jenda--by saying that your solution to the discussion is that you just have to have FAITH is an admission that you can't really defend the BoM with facts and reason.

I don't need to defend the BoM with facts and reason. To me, there is enough circumstantial evidence to make the story believable, and I don't even need that. It is just fun to read those things. My faith is all I need.

If faith isn't good enough for you, Cal, then you will never be able to take anything on faith. That includes the love people say they have for you, the love God claims he has for you, anything. You will just erode things away till you are left with a belief in nothing.

I really do feel sorry for people like you. You might be a really nice guy, but people who demand proof before they believe in anything are just pessimistic at heart. You can't take anything on faith, and it is a drag.

Sorry. Just MHO.

Jenda--you are truely full of crap! Just because I question the literal historicity of the BoM and don't believe in taking on FAITH every little fairy tale I hear doen't mean I don't have faith in my life as a general principle. I guess you have to villify and denigrate those that push you to justify your claims. It must make you feel better. I suspect that you need to do it because deep down you know that what I am saying is true--you can't igore the obvious without some cognitive dissonace, and it eats at you.

I actually have a tremendous amount of faith. I have faith in the love of the God I BELIEVE IN. But my God doesn't demand that I believe in things that are not LOGICALLY believable! Of course I believe in the love of people around me. Why? Because it is BELIEVEABLE! They SHOW ME THEIR LOVE. By your logic I should believe a person loves me, even if he kicks dirt in my face and ignores me when I speak! Faith requires reason. You don't just believe in things in the face of evidence to the contrary! You act as though one should believe in just about anything if it makes you FEEL good! The BoM makes you FEEL good! Well, whoopy! It must me literally true in TOTAL! Drugs can make you FEEL good to. What does that prove? (by the way--I have never touched drugs--so don't jump to any conclusions--as you are prone to do)

Guess I touched a nerve, there, Cal. Huh???

My comment about faith was to show that you have prejudices and NOTHING, probably not even God, himself, would be able to sway your thinking on them.

There are more 'evidences' than you can shake a stick at regarding the BoM, but your heart is so hardened that that you probably don't even ponder and pray about them. There is nothing that will satisfy your hard heart short of a sign that someone might dredge up from somewhere that says "LEHI WAS HERE" (carbon dated and everything). And I even doubt that that would do it for you.

[Pahoran]

Mr. aJenda,

If there are so many evidences for the book of mormon, why isn't it regarded as an historical account of real people that actually existed and real places that actually existed by the (non-LDS) scientific community? Have you ever wondered why that is?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 22 2004, 03:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 22 2004, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 22 2004, 12:20 PM

And where did you get the arrogance and false pride to suggest that only YOU are welcome here?  I guess it really shakes you up to have someone make you justify your claims.

Who would that be Cal?

Are you under the impression that you are making us justify something? Now's who's filled with arrogance and false pride.?

You flatter your self.

On the other hand - I batter myself. There is nothing I like more than sliding into a nice bathtub filled with a tasty, thick tempura batter. Guess that's the difference between us, yoiu and I.

Yes, Snow, I agree with you, there is nothing like a good battering