martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 This honor only comes from the Intelligences, which honors HIM.Yes, this is how it is done. No need of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Thanks for bringing this up again. Marty, I wish not to comment on Elder McConkie excerpt without seeing the rest of the article or hearing it. I have done this in the past and found, through audible means, it was not the same as reading it and corrected my statement. Now, I am not endorsing this statement either. You are correct though, this is not true statement. Heavenly Father does not create or governs by faith. Using Elder McConkie own words, this is one of those hearsay. GOD has the knowledge to work out the creation for this kingdom [state]. There is no additional knowledge to be gained but experiences and glory. Power is not faith but honor is power. This honor only comes from the Intelligences, which honors HIM. The authority to exercise this power is the Holy Priesthood. There is no faith needed to exercise power or the priesthood. As living Intelligences, whether be it on a lower level kingdom to the highest kingdom is eternal. He does not exercise faith in these matters. However, we do until we reached that perfect state of faith or pure knowledge. It is then; we need no longer to look at the GOD with faith or through 'blinded natural eyes' of man.His comments are from Lectures on Faith....which I posted on the previous page.Elder McConkie was paraphrasing Joseph Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) His comments are from Lectures on Faith....which I posted on the previous page.Elder McConkie was paraphrasing Joseph Smith.I have over 12000 plus electronic books and 245K articles. Nothing against Elder McConkie, we live in the age of wonders and great miracles; through the marvelous invention of the database engine and search routines. It is not in the Lectures on Faith: Delivered to the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, 1834-35... Edited June 17, 2009 by Hemidakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Yes, this is how it is done. No need of faith.How do you convey to the understanding more clearly that faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things? By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God; and without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! -Joseph Smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 His comments are from Lectures on Faith....which I posted on the previous page.Elder McConkie was paraphrasing Joseph Smith.Which year was the quote given? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Still why would God need faith as Elder McConkie say's he has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 How do you convey to the understanding more clearly that faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things? By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God; and without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! -Joseph SmithHe was quoting GOD requires faith and not man/woman. This is not correct. GOD does not require faith to operate or rule over HIS dominion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Which year was the quote given?Elder McConkie's talk is from 1982 General Conference...here and he was paraphrasing Joseph Smith....Lectures on Faith....don't know the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 He was quoting GOD requires faith and not man/woman. This is not correct. GOD does not require faith to operate or rule over HIS dominion.So, both Joseph Smith and Bruce McConkie are wrong or are you misunderstanding their words? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Intelligences obey God because of their love and respect for Him. This intelligence is basically light and is in all things. All things are governed or obey God not by his faith but because of their respect and love for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 It is not in the Lectures on Faith: Delivered to the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, 1834-35..Better check your source again......it i from Lectures on Faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 How do you convey to the understanding more clearly that faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things? By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God; and without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! -Joseph SmithMy understanding of what faith is must not be complete according to the above. Explain how God has faith. I'm not trying to disprove here. I was the one that brought up this question for my learning not to disprove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Still why would God need faith as Elder McConkie say's he has?From the Prophet Joseph Smith:Turn your thoughts on your own minds, and see if faith is not the moving cause of all action in yourselves; and if the moving cause in you, is it not in all other intelligent beings? And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Savior has said, and that truly, that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner, receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." By this we understand that the principle of power, which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist - so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith, as it existed in Him. Had it not been for the principle of faith, the worlds would never have been framed, neither would man have been formed of the dust.It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal, as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute (for it is an attribute) from the Deity, and he would cease to exist. Who cannot see that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power? Edited June 17, 2009 by bytor2112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybess Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Ok I see that knowledge does not supersede faith as I thought. To have all faith is the crowning of one to Godhood. bytor2112 that is the best commentary of portions of "lectures of faith"! Thanks. Edited June 17, 2009 by martybess spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) From Js. Smith: "First, it is the principle of power in the deity as well as in man. Hebrews 11:3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Is he reading this passage of Hebrews in a way that "through faith" modifies "were framed by... god"? If so, we can describe this grammatical situation as the modification of a verb in a dependent clause (a proposition with the verb "were framed," the proposition being the object of the verb "understand," which can take propositions as objects) by a prepositional or adverbial phrase at the beginning of the sentence, which is a highly irregular and completely ambiguous way of writing English if we accept that a prepositional phrase at the start of a sentence always modifies the verb of the sentence itself rather than that of a dependent clause in correct English. Agree? Is it a bad translation? Or, is the correct reading (and perhaps JS', though it seems otherwise from the context) that which has "through faith" modifying "understand"? Edited June 17, 2009 by mountthepavement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 It's important to realize that faith isn't something not seen.Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of things not seen.Faith is the evidence...Faith is the substance...So, if there is something you hope for, it is not seen or not realized yet... or you wouldn't hope for it.What you do to bring about the thing you hope for is your faith.If you do nothing to bring it about then it is not faith.This is why the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of doing, or a gospel of works. As we work He blesses our efforts, and increases the results of our efforts... or He increases our ability to work or our faith. We are enabled, or given power, to reach our goal.If we do nothing then there is nothing for Him to expand or increase.Okay, I think I get it:Faith is intended to contrast with mere belie,f in that belief can be something one does entirely internally, which seems to imply tentatively, while faith is active and externally demonstrates belief, hence the emphasis on works. However, couldn't we have correct works with no righteousness but rather calculation behind them? Further, might it be that the old faith vs. works debate is a chicken-or-egg problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I didn't say obedience is not important. I am saying trusting your works of obedience to supplement God's (Jesus') death for your sins and shed blood is to fall from God's grace completely, and that where the problem lies. You cannot ignore Paul, and you're not showing a Biblical understanding of James as related to being saved by God 's grace through our faith that works by love!!!! I am speaking truth here that must be understood or salvation is not possible! Thus saith the Lord!!!I'll take that as a reply to my question about James. Sounds good, though only hinted at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 because as Latter Day Saints we have a greater light and have made our way through the tunnel, a standard Christian runs round in circles in the dark to find their way out of that same tunnel. You can't expect him to understand he has received less light-CharleyStrikes me as the same type of argument aj brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Denominations interpret basic assumptions differently.Would you say this type of idea makes an LDS member a democratic type of christian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Why would God need Faith? His all knowing.Seems very sensible to me, given the bulk of our discussion of faith in this thread, where we have often spoken of faith as the transcendence ("substance") or fulfillment of belief in things unseen. If god sees all, then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 What is Intelligences, capital-I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 His comments are from Lectures on Faith....which I posted on the previous page.Elder McConkie was paraphrasing Joseph Smith.I agree with this reading that he is paraphrasing JS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 How do you convey to the understanding more clearly that faith is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things? By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God; and without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! -Joseph SmithIs faith like "the force"? PS: is that silver surfer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Better check your source again......it i from Lectures on Faith.He may have been quoting himself, EMcC, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountthepavement Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Agree or disagree: Faith is a state or action experienced or committed by subjectivities that has no object (you might say the subjectivity has no subject, in the sense of citizen of a dominion); it can further be characterized by an "existential" paradox: that it does not exist as a possible object of a subjectivity itself (follows from its being a state of subjectivity). It has that type of existence, I mean. To clarify this: faith is the state synonymous with the concept "objectless" in the human mind (hence the paradox). Edited June 17, 2009 by mountthepavement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.