The BOM and The Holy Bible

[aj4u]

BoM

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil (3Nephi 11)

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. (Moroni 8) The BoM emphasizes baptism as an essential work for salvation and several other things, but the Bible doesn't. It also emphasizes any one adding or taking away from the gospel which is a part of the salvation message comes from evil, the Bible essentially states the same through Paul about a different gospel message.

The Bible:

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If baptism is an essential work for salvation why hasn't that been emphasized in the Holy Bible. It is not even mentioned once as being necessary for salvation, but calling on the name of the Lord is and believing in you heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and by faith through grace we are saved. It seems that the BOM states removing or adding anything from the salvation message comes from evil, but also the Bible states the same. These seem to pit me one vs the other.

Edited June 16, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

aj4u, these are scriptures in the Bible that come a lot closer to saying baptism is necessary. Perhaps you pit this BoM scripture against those verses?

Also, there are verses in the BoM that look more like the one you quoted from the Bible.

However, this verse you quoted from the Bible does not prove baptism is not necessary. You need to quote where the Bible says it is not necessary in order to get a contradiction. It is your interpretation that the Bible does not teach baptism is necessary.

[robspectre]

I suppose we stupid mormons overlooked that. Dang, time to start over.

[Kawazu]

I suppose we stupid mormons overlooked that. Dang, time to start over.

You are right. Let us quit Mormonism, together. I am free!

Mr. AJ: This post is meant to illustrate, (facetiously), why Scripture battles never go anywhere. Presuming I showed the forum Scriptural evidence for a Flying Spaghetti Monster, nobody would join me in paying respect to his Divine Noodle. Most active religious people are firmly established within their belief systems. Perhaps you could take a page from prisonchaplain and ask him why he spends time online hanging around the LDS people, here. It might give you some perspective on what to expect from this forum community.

Cheers,

Kawazu

Edited June 16, 2009 by Kawazu

[aj4u]

aj4u, these are scriptures in the Bible that come a lot closer to saying baptism is necessary. Perhaps you pit this BoM scripture against those verses?

Also, there are verses in the BoM that look more like the one you quoted from the Bible.

However, this verse you quoted from the Bible does not prove baptism is not necessary. You need to quote where the Bible says it is not necessary in order to get a contradiction. It is your interpretation that the Bible does not teach baptism is necessary.

Obviously, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized before being saved by Jesus. I am not saying it isn't important to baptize, but I am seeing a complicated salvation message in the BoM than there is in the Bible. The BoM says we must have perfect faith to be saved. What is that? It also says if we have faith we must have hope. This doesn't make sense to me. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. If you have the faith, your in period. The BoM is making it sound like we need to have things that I cannot define and I get confused trying to understand the plan of salvation from its verses whereas, the Bible is simple and clear cut to me. Can you understand me on this?

[Carl62]

You're back AGAIN with the same rhetoric??!! Don't you know when you're fighting a losing battle?

[Kawazu]

I believe he asks some good questions that I think many people raised in the church take for granted, though.

If we go through the effort of answering your inquiry, AJ, will you not jump from question to question, this time?

[Justice]

What I understand is that you are comfortable with your interpretation of the Bible.

aj, I never said it would be easy for you to understand where we're coming from. But, in order to understand, you HAVE to understand you can't HOLD YOUR BELIEFS and do it at the same time. You have to go to a place that is uncomfortable.

1 Peter 1:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Our faith must be tried. If you reamin in your comfortable place, your faith is not being tried.

Joseph Smith once said that the gospel is meant to comfort the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable.

AJ, I want you to know in all honesty and sincerety that I understand those 2 scriptures you posted in complete harmony. All you need to understand is that the Book of Mormon is clearing up what it means to "believe" in Jesus Christ.

Understanding the issue with the thief comes in order. But, if you can trust me enough to believe there is answer for it, then concentrate on the basics.

If you want, I can show you verses in the Bible that are more strong in their declaration of baptism, and I can show you verses in the Book of Mormon that speak of only believing in Jesus Christ. The issue is defining "believe."

[Kawazu]

Hi,

I would also like to add that it is not necessary to convert in order to understand somebody else's faith. For instance, I can appreciate how an inerrant Holy Bible is one of the central miracles distinct to Protestant Christian denominations. Also, I can see how Protestant Christians believe that faith in Christ is the only mandate for Heavenly Salvation--even though they still believe in doing Christian things for their friends and neighbors.

When we ask for you to understand, and we are not asking you to convert. I would be happy if you simply understood the LDS point of view.

Cheers,

Kawazu

[mountthepavement]

All you need to understand is that the Book of Mormon is clearing up what it means to "believe" in Jesus Christ.

The issue is defining "believe."

I'm excited about this post: Can we take some time to do this? What would be the best way?

I want a rigorous definition. If it is the case that the difference between LDS' and the layman's understanding of "belief" is as different and ineffable as that between red and blue, then I believe only a "circular" definition will be possible for you. In that case, I would ask you to consider the concept of a recursive definition and program, and see whether it applies in this case. This, to me, would place LDS under the category of, if you will, a charismatic religion, meaning it relies on a feedback loop of good feelings that is put in place first by a suspension of disbelief and sustained by periodic and probably frequent exertions of the will. This is my perception, and I am testing it to see whether it is ill-founded or no.

Edited June 16, 2009 by mountthepavement

[mountthepavement]

I would be happy if you simply understood the LDS point of view.

I am trying to do that, and y'all have been fairly helpful in that direction, so thanks.

[Justice]

I think the best place to start is ask aj4u to tell us what he thinks it means to believe in Christ, then maybe you next?

[aj4u]

You're back AGAIN with the same rhetoric??!! Don't you know when you're fighting a losing battle?

I am not concerned about winning battles. I want to see Jesus get the reward of His suffering. It is the war that must be won! Jesus will be the victor and through Him, we are more than conquerors.

[Carl62]

It is the war that must be won! Jesus will be the victor and through Him, we are more than conquerors.

It's no longer about battles, it's now about winning an entire war?! I don't understand, who (or what) is it you are trying to wage war against? And who is "we"?

[aj4u]

I think the best place to start is ask aj4u to tell us what he thinks it means to believe in Christ, then maybe you next?

It means to take in or drink of. It means making Jesus the center of your life. I mean letting Him be Lord of your life. It means being hid in Him and abiding in Him and Him in you. If these things are present, there is nothing else needed. A person can be in prison and never have an opportunity to be baptized from a physical perspective and He will be saved according to the Bible, but not according the BoM. Nephi says we are saved after all we can do. This strikes at the very heart of all Paul was for and against. Ephesians 2: 8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that is not of yourselves it is the gift of God NOT of works. This might sound redundant to you, but I don't see how you made it over that hump without being pushed. How can anyone earn or work for a gift? YOU Cannot. If we have to add anything to what Jesus has done to be saved other than our total faith in Him, we are fallen from God's grace and will be judged on whether we have been perfect in all our works. The silgthlest imperfection and we don't qualify for the smallest place in God's glory. I find that the Lord gently leads His sheep in the way they should go, but the devil pushes! I believe the devil wants to win this war by convincing believers that they have to earn or work for the gift of salvation or eternal life in Jesus. Edited June 16, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

It's no longer about battles, it's now about winning an entire war?! I don't understand, who (or what) is it you are trying to wage war against? And who is "we"?

WE=true followers of Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible.

[Kawazu]

WE=true followers of Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible.

I am a true follower of Christ Jesus and the Holy Bible. I do not want to wage war. I will converse with people.

[prisonchaplain]

You are right. Let us quit Mormonism, together. I am free!

For a second there I thought you and rob were ready to convert. I was fixing to send you an application for membership to my church, before AJ could beat me to it! Ah wait...you guys were being sarcastic, weren't you???

:::sigh:::

[mountthepavement]

I think the best place to start is ask aj4u to tell us what he thinks it means to believe in Christ, then maybe you next?

well, not me, since the phrase originates with y'all in the conversation, but aj4u would work.

[Kawazu]

Keep prowling, man. I could have a relapse at any time.

For a second there I thought you and rob were ready to convert. I was fixing to send you an application for membership to my church, before AJ could beat me to it! Ah wait...you guys were being sarcastic, weren't you???

:::sigh:::

[mountthepavement]

aj4u, what do you think about the "epistle of straw," the book of James? It seemed to emphasize works. What's your reading?

[Justice]

aj4u, can you claim to believe in Christ and not do what He says?

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Then He gave an analogy building on sand or rock.

Do you not see where Christ says in order to claim we believe in Him (call Him Lord) we have to do what He says?

If it doesn't say this to you then please interpret.

[Carl62]

Ephesians 2: 8, 9 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that is not of yourselves it is the gift of God NOT of works. This might sound redundant to you, but I don't see how you made it over that hump without being pushed. How can anyone earn or work for a gift? YOU Cannot. If we have to add anything to what Jesus has done to be saved other than our total faith in Him, we are fallen from God's grace and will be judged on whether we have been perfect in all our works.

Then how do you explain Matthew 19:16-21 where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he had to to in order to get into the Kingdom of Heaven and His response to him was to keep the Ten Commandments, and to give what he had to the poor - nothing else! Wouldn't you agree that both of these things are constituted as works? Now it's assumed that Jesus knew that the rich young man had a great faith and love in Him, but He said that it MUST be accompanied with works and not by merely having faith alone, which without the works, produces a dead belief. (James 2:14-17) Faith and works DO go hand in hand in order to gain salvation and one is not complete without the other. Like you AJ, I'm just going by what the Bible tells me.:)

[bytor2112]

Then how do you explain Matthew 19:16-21 where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he had to to in order to get into the Kingdom of Heaven and His response to him was to keep the Ten Commandments, and to give what he had to the poor - nothing else! Wouldn't you agree that both of these things are constituted as works? Now it's assumed that Jesus knew that the rich young man had a great faith and love in Him, but He said that it MUST be accompanied with works and not by merely having faith alone, which without the works, produces a dead belief. (James 2:14-17) Faith and works DO go hand in hand in order to gain salvation and one is not complete without the other. Like you AJ, I'm just going by what the Bible tells me.:)

So....let me get this straight....your essentially saying that you believe in ALL of the Bible and not just parts??? :huh: I dunno, pretty risky.

[Carl62]

So....let me get this straight....your essentially saying that you believe in ALL of the Bible and not just parts??? :huh: I dunno, pretty risky.

LOL...Oh wow, what was I thinking! That's right, according to the anti's, I only believe in parts of the Bible. Heck, some have even told me that I don't believe in any of it at all. Man, I don't know what came over me. Now that I've regained my senses, I'll just go back to reading my Journal of Discourses scripture and praying to Joseph Smith. Thanks for setting me straight, Bytor.