2 Gospel Points that I Don't Get

[LostSheep]

Can someone please answer these 2 questions for me? They don't make sense to me.

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

[deseretgov]

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

I believe murder is forgivable. But for a murderer to be bapitized they must get permissionfrom the First Presidency I believe. Only sinning against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable, and that is pretty hard to do.

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end.

What do you mean everyone wins in the end?

For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me?

No. Christ had to be punished for our sins but must also have been perfect. If Christ was not perfect then He would have no authority. He had to be a sinless sacrifice. Because He was punished for nothing(nothing that He did). He can say who will be able to return to Heavenly Father.

He paid for our debt and so now we owe Him. If we follow Him he will forgive our debt.

Why was Jesus resurrected?

To make it possible so the rest of us could be resurrected.

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

[Justice]

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

Murder is forgivable. Anything a man repents of is forgivable. A man cannot be forgiven if he does not repent. There are logical reasons for this, but they come with a deeper understanding.

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

Everyone wins because everyone who will be born in this world passed their first estate. Through Adam all men die, through Christ all men are made alive. This was Father's plan.

Jesus paid the penalty to justice for our sin. That penalty was death. He overcame death. He was grater than death. Death tried to overtake Him. Death failed; Jesus won.

It truly is difficult to understand. But, He was perfect and our sins cannot make Him imperfect. He took upon our sins as far as the punishment that we justly deserved. He paid the price that we would have had to endure and offers this gift of mercy to all who repent and take upon His name.

[tubaloth]

1) and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable.

In your case it is forgivable. Each case is a little different. But like it was said there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end.

We do in a way win when we follow Christ and his Gospel. Thats the whole point of what Christ came! So that we can win over sin, and death. That only happens with Christ.

For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me?

We fall short of an eternal law. God being perfect, and us not perfect throws a problem in. For us to be where God is, we have to pay the price of violating the eternal law. We can! This is where Christ comes in. Justice demands that somebody pay the price, not that somebody actually has the sin. With Christ paying the price, the debt is now taking up, we now make up the debt so to speak to Christ and do this by covenanting with Him to live his Gospel and to follow Him.

Why was Jesus resurrected?

Christ is was the only half Human half God to ever be born onto this earth. Because Christ was half God he had power over his life. Because he was half Human he how the power to die. Because of this, Christ is the only one that could take up his body again. Really in a way the only one that could raise himself from the dead. So the bands of death would be broken for all.

[MarginOfError]

Can someone please answer these 2 questions for me? They don't make sense to me.

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

I don't mean this to sound offensive, but I don't think you quite understand how the Atonement works.

When we agreed to come to earth, we essentially made a covenant with God (read, Heavenly Father) to follow his commandments and live up to his expectations. However, he knew that we would fail and that none of us would be able to return to his presence. For whatever reason--and I can't say that I understand the reasons behind this--living the commandments was a necessary condition for entrance into God's presence.

For this reason, God chose a Savior. Christ's mission was to come to earth and fulfill all of God's commandments. If Christ could complete his own life without having sinned, then he would be in a unique position to negotiate our salvation with the Father.

You see, by living the perfect life, Christ was actually owed something by the Father while owing nothing to the Father. While in this position, Christ could essentially cut a deal with God. Christ offers to take upon himself all the punishment that was due for our sins and transgressions. When we say Christ took upon himself our sins, we actually mean he took upon himself the punishment for our sins...the pain and suffering due to those who separate themselves from God.

Having taken all that suffering upon himself, Christ has, in a sense, bought our contracts. As the holder of the contracts, it is Christ who now decides who is and is not worthy to return to God's presence. Also, since it is Christ who stands at the gate, he gets to set the terms for entrance.

It would seem that Christ isn't quick to forgive murderers. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that he holds the keys over death and doesn't particularly like it when people take it upon themselves to exercise that power.

Also, the unpardonable sin is unpardonable because Christ has no desire to accept into his presence someone who knew of and accepted him as the Savior and then knowingly turned against that testimony. It isn't a matter of "can't forgive," but of "won't forgive."

In the premortal existence, the reason that Christ stood out is that he said, in essence, "pick me and I will pay the price for humankind's sins, and maintain the terms of the original contract while giving the Father all the glory." This boils down to, "I will do the absolute minimum necessary for God's children to return to God." This was quite humble and selfless. Satan, on the other hand, said "pick me and I will pay the price, and everyone can return to my presence." Christ's plan was about us and the Father. Satan's plan was about Satan.

Hope that clears things up a little.

[Just_A_Guy]

Incidentally, I showed this video to my primary class just today.

The penalty for sin would have been an eternity cast out of God's presence. Somehow, by virtue of His divine parentage and His own sinless life, Christ was able to suffer that penalty and yet (unlike us) still emerge from hell to claim His place as God. That is why the Atonement is infinite and eternal--because through that transaction, an infinite and eternal debt was miraculously paid in full.

[Jim108]

Can someone please answer these 2 questions for me? They don't make sense to me.

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

"...why is murder not forgivable?"

All sin is forgivable save blasphemy.

"...For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect?"

Jesus has already done this. On the cross Jesus took on all sin of the world past, present and future. This is important.

[Misshalfway]

Can someone please answer these 2 questions for me? They don't make sense to me.

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

Murder is one of those things that will take a God to judge. I believe that murder is pardonable. And one still can change and progress and experience a change of heart. Remember that every one of us is judged not only upon our actions, but upon the knowledge of truth we had at the time of our choices and the true intentions of our hearts.....before and after a sin.

And with regards to question 2......

The way justice is satisfied is either to keep ones account current thru obedience OR to have what was lost repaid. So If I steal $20 bucks from you, I must repay you $20 bucks plus maybe some pain and suffering if my actions caused you that. I am responsible for the debt so the consequences fall to me. So, I either have to come up with the money or go to prison. I don't have the money, so I must go to prison. My father who has money and love for me agrees to pay the debt for me in exchange for my service to him for a time. He didn't need to become a theif in order to pay my debt, he just needed to have the resources and the inclination.

Jesus didn't need to sin or become sinful to repay the debt. Jesus paid the debt because he had the resources to do it (he was a god), and he had the inclination (love). His sacrifice in Gethsemane is how Jesus went to prison for all of us. Justice is satisfied thru this sacrifice and mercy is applies to all who are willing to meet the conditions of repentance.

Clear as mud?

[Misshalfway]

Not to be confrontational, love your posts, but I disagree with the "in exchange for my service to him" part. Jesus did not pay the price for us in order to get anything in return. He paid the price because he loves us, and loves/trusts his Father. Selfless = do it without getting anything in return, and this is the part that no one understands because our minds are so locked into the tit for tat ideology. Everyone owes Them more than we could ever repy, our life, the earth and all that is on it, the breath we breathe, it is all Theirs. We pridfully think that by being good we are somehow giving them seomthing, that we can repay Them, to think that we are independent beings who just temporarily take out a loan to go to school... It is not just a temporary loan, it is an eternal debt that we will never be able to repay.. no one likes to be in debt to anyone, pride I guess, thinking we don't need anyone/can do it all on our own. The eternal debt part of it is what makes it selfless though. ...The reason to be good is not to try and repay Them (as that is impossible) but because it is how we progress - about trying to get out of the mud that we all wallow in - being good benefits us, not Them, we are doing something for ourselves when we decide to follow the commandments...

I think Jesus allows all of us to forgive one another. He is a mediator, not just between us and God, but between us and eachother. If it was just us, and someone wronged us, and decide not to forgive them, it is just between us. With Jesus in the picture though, if we decide not to forgive them, that is also saying that Jesus' death did not count for anything... so if we cannot forgive them for their sake, we place Jesus between us, and forgive them for his sake. If Jesus is not there, there is no just reason to forgive anyone of anything... With Jesus there teaching us what it means to be selfless - to do things without needing anything in return... a sin to deny the atonement on anyone's behalf, and you can have everyone forgiving everyone else...

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 64:9)

the greater sin is perhaps the sin of denying the power of the atonement...

just thoughts.

No worries, Changed. I suppose I could have said that better. I do agree that the atonement is infinite and that our goal is not to pay it back to Jesus. What I was trying to convey was that enjoying the blessings of this infinite sacrifice IS conditional. We must offer something on the alter, don't you agree? One can't be forgiven without repentance. And it is said that for those who don't repent, it will be as if the atonement had not happened. Well, not exactly considering all will resurrected. But we will suffer for our sins. Not sure I am saying this as well as I would like, but I hope you get the gist.

[rameumptom]

Can someone please answer these 2 questions for me? They don't make sense to me.

1) If the atonement infinite, then why is murder not forgivable? Example: A person murders someone, serves time in jail and is released after years and years, the missionaries come to his house, he is baptized, and then he finds out that murder is unforgivable. So he can't get into the Celestial Kingdom no matter what? Then why bother trying?

Rameumptom: I think this concept has developed quite a bit since the days of Elder Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness. I do not believe it to be an actual doctrine that murderers cannot enter into the Celestial Kingdom. I believe it is extremely difficult for them to enter therein.

We have evidence of murderers who DO inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Nephi murdered Laban (yes, with God's permission, but it is still murder). The Ammonites killed many people before their conversion. And there were Lamanites who slew several kneeling Ammonites and Nephites, before repenting and becoming righteous.

The concept is: what do we BECOME. We are saved into a kingdom of heaven by grace/faith. We enter into the Celestial Kingdom by Becoming like Christ. The question then is, how hard/easy is it for a sinner to repent enough to Become Christ-like? For the Ammonites, it required burying their weapons of war forever, becoming pacifists, and praying for those who would murder them.

Currently, the Lord restricts baptism to those who have murdered. But if they are faithful, they shall have that benefit in the next life. This is part of the trial they must bear to inherit Celestial glory.

2) The atonement to me doesn't quite seem to balance the scales of justice. Because everyone seems wins in the end. For this to work, wouldn't Jesus have to literally take our sins upon him, causing him to no longer be perfect? Can someone explain this to me? Why was Jesus resurrected?

I know that last question sounds a bit harsh, and I don't mean to challenge or offend anyone.

Rameumptom: The scales aren't balanced. God is our Father. He desires to give us the maximal reward we are willing and able to receive. So he maximizes mercy.

Do murderers deserve a level of heaven? Probably not. But God loves all his children, and has made the only stipulation for salvation from the 2nd death to just accept the atonement. Alma experienced this in his repentance (Alma 36), where all he had to do was beg Christ to save him, and he was immediately released from hell.

Christ atoned for all sins, as long as we do not completely rebel against him and totally refuse his atonement. Those who do, become sons of perdition.

I personally view the atonement in the way that Blake Ostler does. In volume 1 of his LDS philosophy series, Exploring Mormon Thought, he teaches that Christ's atonement is ongoing. When we repent, Christ engulfs us in his love, and we enter a loving relationship with him. We receive his forgiveness, love and Spirit; and he willingly receives our pain, suffering, sins, and fears (along with our hopes, gratitude, repentance, etc). In this way, Christ is forever going through the atonement. And in this way, he CAN bring us into the presence of the Father, as we are absorbed in our relationship with Christ, he can then bring us into a relationship with the Father.

Christ came to earth and suffered all things in the atonement, so that he can understand how to succor us (Alma 7:12). He resurrected so as to have a physical and glorified body, even as does Heavenly Father. And he resurrected to open the doors of death, so the rest of us can also be resurrected.

Christ has destroyed the 2nd death for any and all people who will come to him. Even the smallest effort towards Christ (a mustard seed) is sufficent for salvation in a kingdom of heaven. The Prodigal Son spent everything in wicked living, yet his Father took him back and rejoiced. His son would receive a place in the kingdoms of God. Whether it would be in the Celestial glory, we do not know. It is pleasing and hopeful enough to know that if God would quickly embrace the returning Prodigal Son, he will quickly embrace us in the atoning sacrifice of the Redeeming Son, Jesus Christ.