What is a "Church record"?

[havejoy]

The one that comes to mind is the pedophile. If someone had been convicted of such a crime it would be unconscionable to allow them to be a a calling that would allow them to be around children. It would put the children in danger of being hurt and it would put the pedophile in a position of temptation.

[pentecorman]

This really addresses several problems.

I grew up thinking that God actually "called" people through inspiration/revelation.

So you are either saying "don't obey God because common sense says not to," or "God really has nothing to do with these small calling, we just fill them in as needed, and would never put a repentant pedophile in because we all know he has not really been born again."

I also grew up believing this church was "big" on forgiveness too. Imagine saying that to your wife -Yeah honey, I forgive you, but I'm keepin' tabs. If you feel that way just divorce/excommunicate and move on!

[pentecorman]

"Don't let Paul become an Apostle, he was a Jesus hater and Christian basher." "Don't let Alma the Younger go out on a mission, his eyes will become attracted to women and things of the world again and will destroy the church."

We think we believe in the spirit of revelation to guide us. Then it gets real and we deny the very power thereof. Sad.

[havejoy]

Do you really think a bishop can't make a mistake? I mean, if you're looking for a reason to hate the church then go ahead and hate it for not putting convicted child molesters in positions of power over children.

[pentecorman]

Who said anything about "hate the church?" I love the church. Bishops can make mistakes, so can pedophiles. But God does not.

See, now is when members fall back on "everyone, even prophets, make mistakes." No one ever wants to talk about the contradictions in what we say and preach versus reality.

We say, "Repent, get cleansed through the Atonement." Then what we actually do is put astrisks next to people's names who have something that warranted disfellowship even though they have repented, gone to the temple, hold reccomends, and it is 20 years in the past. That is hypocricy.

The problem is that we feel like apostate church haters if we say anything. I did not bring up this topic, but I will speak honestly about it. Not everyone who has been disfellowshipped is a child molester. Some may have been disfellowshipped by one of those "mistakes" made by the bishop that you want to excuse.

[qedd]

Who said anything about "hate the church?" I love the church. Bishops can make mistakes, so can pedophiles. But God does not.

See, now is when members fall back on "everyone, even prophets, make mistakes." No one ever wants to talk about the contradictions in what we say and preach versus reality.

Please don't brush with broad strokes -- many of us believe that infallibility is a logical fallacy regardless of the topic.

We say, "Repent, get cleansed through the Atonement." Then what we actually do is put astrisks next to people's names who have something that warranted disfellowship even though they have repented, gone to the temple, hold reccomends, and it is 20 years in the past. That is hypocricy.

As was mentioned earlier, the "asterisks" that follow people for longer than the duration of Church discipline are far, few, and only in extreme cases.

The problem is that we feel like apostate church haters if we say anything. I did not bring up this topic, but I will speak honestly about it. Not everyone who has been disfellowshipped is a child molester.

You are entitled to your opinions, and no two members of the Church see completely eye to eye on just about any topic. Just be open to the possibility that you may not have all the information as it pertains to Church discipline and the policies that are associated with membership records. It may not be as bad as you believe.

Some may have been disfellowshipped by one of those "mistakes" made by the bishop that you want to excuse.

Since one can't prove a negative, then it is possible that such may have happened.

[qedd]

For those that may be unaware or are suspicious of the intentions of the Church as it pertains to Church discipline, please note that the first and foremost purpose of Church discipline is to "save the souls of transgressors by helping them repent." Leaders are to administer discipline in a "spirit of love so it can bless the life of the transgressor."

[ztodd]

You've really gotten on your soapbox about this, haven't you? :)

Going back to your first post -

Actually, there are confidential marks placed on your record that only your Bishop (or Stake Pres) has access to. I learned this when I inquired about becoming a CES teacher. They said you cannot be divorved and you cannot have been disfellowshipped or exed. I inquired "how would you know if I were?" I was told that there was an astrisk at a certain spot on your record that indicated this fact of your past. It is also used for scout callings and any calling when working with the youth.

As a parent I think this is great.

However, as a person I think it dismisses true repentance and permanantly brands people. Terrible!

The contrast between the two paradigms you present in your last two statements is interesting. Could you elaborate more on that first statement speaking as a parent?

[skippy740]

Just because you forgive, doesn't mean you forget.

God does, but insurance companies and attorneys don't.

The Church MUST protect itself and that includes knowing the background of the people who may be called to work with the youth.

[Mahone]

I also believe that the church doesn't allow those who have chosen to leave the church (officially) and then chose to return to become bishops or higher. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[MarginOfError]

The Membership Record maintained by the Church records basic identifying/genealogical information such as Name, birth date, location of birth, and dates of essential ordinances (baptism, confirmation, conferral and ordination, endowments and sealings). Civil marriage dates are also recorded along with the place of the marriage. Additional information that is recorded includes mission in which a person served, the language spoken in the mission, and the names, birth dates, and membership record numbers or parents and children.

Some additional information may be recorded on the membership record including formal disciplinarian action taken against a person, or certain annotations that denote if a person has been convicted of certain crimes (most notably abuse of children). These annotations serve two purposes:

1. Alert bishops members who may have special spiritual needs, such as a disfellowshipped member. These annotations may remain on the record so that future bishops are aware of the past action and may remain alert for warning signs of repeat transgressions. The purpose of these annotations are to provide additional support for the member, not punishment.

2. Alert bishops of members who have committed offenses against children and should not be assigned to work with children and youth. These annotations are primarily for legal purposes. If the Church were to knowingly assign a person to work with children and then something were to be done to a child, the Church could be held legally liable. Sometimes repentance cannot alleviate the temporal consequences of our sins.

The membership record may only be viewed by the Bishop, his counselors, and the ward clerk(s) (or stake equivalents). Members are allowed to view their Individual Ordinance Summary. To the best of my knowledge, these two documents are identical in the absence of any annotations.

For those that make statements such as "a person who has been disfellowshipped may not become a bishop" should remember that these are guidelines and non-doctrinal. Revelation trumps all, and if the First Presidency approves a person who has been disfellowshipped or excommunicated to be bishop, then that man may be bishop. Such exceptions are rare and considered very carefully, but are certainly plausible.

As mentioned before, if you want to learn more about church records and record keeping, you can find out most of it on the internet. In fact, all of the clerk training is done on the internet now, and can be found here.

You can also browse LDSTech